Bopushaq

Hoid Broke His Deal

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In chapter 80 (The Dog and the Dragon), Hoid makes this protective bubble and tells Kaladin a story that inspires him to keep going. At the end, Hoid says 

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“I can’t keep this bubble up much longer, I’m afraid,” Wit said. “He’ll notice if I do—and then he’ll destroy me. I have violated our agreement, which exposes me to his direct action.

From this quote, it seems as though Odium can only take action if he directly noticed Hoid violating the agreement. However in OB, when Dalinar and Odium make their deal for the Contest, Odium says that he’ll honor the agreement in spirit, and that is something he cannot break (don’t have the exact quote right now). Also, in chapter 112 of RoW, Odium confirms this by saying that Dalinar would be in Odium’s power if he were to break the contract. 
 

So now my question is, how was Hoid able to break the spirit of the contract with Odium and get away with it? 
 

My theory is that he actually didn’t get away with it, and this is what opened up Taravangian to manipulate Hoid’s investiture in the epilogue, which leads me to believe that this isn’t just some mastermind plan by Hoid and that he has (for once) failed here. But then, why would Taravangian not just destroy Hoid there? What do you guys think?

Edited by Bopushaq
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Raise Odium said he would follow the spirit of the agreement.  Taravangian Odium is the one that messed up Hoid's memory. 

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5 hours ago, Bopushaq said:

In chapter 80 (The Dog and the Dragon), Hoid makes this protective bubble and tells Kaladin a story that inspires him to keep going. At the end, Hoid says 

From this quote, it seems as though Odium can only take action if he directly noticed Hoid violating the agreement. However in OB, when Dalinar and Odium make their deal for the Contest, Odium says that he’ll honor the agreement in spirit, and that is something he cannot break (don’t have the exact quote right now). Also, in chapter 112 of RoW, Odium confirms this by saying that Dalinar would be in Odium’s power if he were to break the contract. 
 

So now my question is, how was Hoid able to break the spirit of the contract with Odium and get away with it? 
 

My theory is that he actually didn’t get away with it, and this is what opened up Taravangian to manipulate Hoid’s investiture in the epilogue, which leads me to believe that this isn’t just some mastermind plan by Hoid and that he has (for once) failed here. But then, why would Taravangian not just destroy Hoid there? What do you guys think?

Any knowledge Todium my have of the binding agreement between his power and Hoid would be intrinsic to the power and would probably require the shard hosting the power to actively contemplate it to actually know what is going on there.  

Which is to say, Todium probably wasn't totally aware of the details of the animosity between Rayse and Hoid, or their contract and thus just blundered into taking advantage of Hoid making himself vulnerable in a way Rayse may not have thought to do thinking the contract still bound him.  

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4 hours ago, Palindrome said:

Raise Odium said he would follow the spirit of the agreement.  Taravangian Odium is the one that messed up Hoid's memory. 

I think my mistake here was that I assumed that this was a condition of holding a Shard, instead of a Rayse-only type thing. Looking at it now, if all the Shards were held to such agreements, then they probably would have died when they broke the agreement to not settle together on planets. However, Taravangian is still bound by the previous contracts of Rayse so perhaps there is still something here.

 

2 hours ago, Serack said:

Any knowledge Todium my have of the binding agreement between his power and Hoid would be intrinsic to the power and would probably require the shard hosting the power to actively contemplate it to actually know what is going on there.  

Which is to say, Todium probably wasn't totally aware of the details of the animosity between Rayse and Hoid, or their contract and thus just blundered into taking advantage of Hoid making himself vulnerable in a way Rayse may not have thought to do thinking the contract still bound him.  

When Todium Ascends, he learns about everything that happened in the past with Odium, including all of Rayse's plans and "had access to some of his knowledge." So he should know about the Contract, but maybe not the full extent of Rayse and Wit's relationship, as you said.

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Couple things:

  1. Wit technically broke his agreement with Odium. Odium isn't aware of it because Hoid stopped the bubble before Odium could be made aware of it.
  2. Rayse had beef with Hoid. Taravangian only knows that beef through whatever memories Odium transferred to him. Evidence from the Epilogue says that Taravangian is more interested in what Hoid knows than any beef Rayse once had with him. TOdium just doesn't know how to get that information without cluing Hoid in to the fact that Rayse is dead.
  3. Whatever the agreement is between Hoid and Odium that protects Hoid, it never precluded removing short term memory stored in Breaths. TOdium removed the Breaths while stating that he could do so without harming.

So I don't think there's anything here. TOdium is not aware of Hoid interfering with Odium's corrupting of Kaladin. Since he isn't aware, there is no danger to Hoid.

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1 hour ago, Bopushaq said:

I think my mistake here was that I assumed that this was a condition of holding a Shard, instead of a Rayse-only type thing. Looking at it now, if all the Shards were held to such agreements, then they probably would have died when they broke the agreement to not settle together on planets.

Shards are bound by Oaths.  The not-settling-together thing wasn't an Oath.  

Quote

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)
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11 hours ago, Bopushaq said:

In chapter 80 (The Dog and the Dragon), Hoid makes this protective bubble and tells Kaladin a story that inspires him to keep going. At the end, Hoid says 

From this quote, it seems as though Odium can only take action if he directly noticed Hoid violating the agreement. However in OB, when Dalinar and Odium make their deal for the Contest, Odium says that he’ll honor the agreement in spirit, and that is something he cannot break (don’t have the exact quote right now). Also, in chapter 112 of RoW, Odium confirms this by saying that Dalinar would be in Odium’s power if he were to break the contract. 
 

So now my question is, how was Hoid able to break the spirit of the contract with Odium and get away with it? 
 

My theory is that he actually didn’t get away with it, and this is what opened up Taravangian to manipulate Hoid’s investiture in the epilogue, which leads me to believe that this isn’t just some mastermind plan by Hoid and that he has (for once) failed here. But then, why would Taravangian not just destroy Hoid there? What do you guys think?

okay, basically Hoid broke the agreement and is vulnerable to Odium's interference, but Odium can't do anything to Hoid if he can't find Hoid. Odium then proceeded to agree to the contract where he wasn't allowed to harm Hoid, which Todium needed to follow when Hoid revealed himself. 

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Wait, didn't he broke a former agreement ? The new one, made by Dalinar, is supposed to protect him, no ?

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14 hours ago, Bopushaq said:

So now my question is, how was Hoid able to break the spirit of the contract with Odium and get away with it?

I don't think that Hoid is bound by oaths in the same way that shards are, and I think that's part of the reason why he declined to take up a shard in the first place - greater freedom in his capacity for directly meddling with affairs. Thus, any enforcement of the oath would need to be external - from Odium. As others who have already posted have mentioned, Odium didn't catch on to Hoid's breaking the oath, and since Odium isn't aware of it, his shardic nature still prevents him from harming Hoid.

Also:

 

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Whatever the agreement is between Hoid and Odium that protects Hoid, it never precluded removing short term memory stored in Breaths. TOdium removed the Breaths while stating that he could do so without harming.

 

and

 

2 hours ago, Dracnor said:

Wait, didn't he broke a former agreement ? The new one, made by Dalinar, is supposed to protect him, no ?

I believe Dracnor is correct - Hoid is further covered by the new agreement, which allows him to interfere without the repercussions he would experience under the older agreement Hoid had with RaysOdium.

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6 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

okay, basically Hoid broke the agreement and is vulnerable to Odium's interference, but Odium can't do anything to Hoid if he can't find Hoid. Odium then proceeded to agree to the contract where he wasn't allowed to harm Hoid, which Todium needed to follow when Hoid revealed himself. 

This is correct. “He’ll notice - and then he’ll kill me” = he’ll notice me, not he’ll notice that I violated our agreement. 

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On 1/14/2021 at 3:39 PM, Dracnor said:

Wait, didn't he broke a former agreement ? The new one, made by Dalinar, is supposed to protect him, no ?

Possibly, but Dalinar did end up essentially come up with a new contract from the one Hoid suggested, and when Odium goes over the final terms, he did not list that as part of it.

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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