Who will be the big bad at the end?

[Stormtide_Leviathan Cobalt Guard]

I could definitely see harmony becoming a big bad if I’m being honest

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

No one ever thinks they are the villain but I think the readers almost always agree on who the good guys and the bad guys are in Brandon's books. Rashek might be trying to protect Scadrial from Ruin but he is not an antihero. On the other hand Lirin thinks any violence is wrong and would let the unmade take Kaladin than see him hurt someone. I don't know anyone who agrees with Lirin. One of Kaladins biggest flaws is that he wants to save everyone.

I think the difference is in the characters motivations. Rashek is saving Scadrial for personal reasons and if you removed those from the equation  he could watch everything else burn. Its a little scary because that reminds me of something Hoid says...

Edited January 14 by KSub
I can't spell

[Kingsdaughter613 Steel Inquisitor]

29 minutes ago, KSub said:

No one ever thinks they are the villain but I think the readers almost always agree on who the good guys and the bad guys are in Brandon's books. Rashek might be trying to protect Scadrial from Ruin but he is not an antihero. On the other hand Lirin thinks any violence is wrong and would let the unmade take Kaladin then see him hurt someone. I don't know anyone who agrees with Lirin. One of Kaladins biggest flaws is that he wants to save everyone.

I think the difference is in the characters motivations. Rashek is saving Scadrial for personal reasons and if you removed those from the equation  he could watch everything else burn. Its a little scary because that reminds me of something Hoid says...

Lirin isn’t okay with that. He says that because he’s psyching himself up to watch his son die. He knows, as a surgeon, that Kaladin is already dead and it’s just a matter of making him comfortable until he goes Beyond. Note that he’s packing his medical bag even as he speaks, his actions at odds with his words.

It’s a terrible situation to be in, and Lirin doesn’t choose a very good method of dealing with it. But I can sympathize, because I’ve been in that situation. It’s probably the worst situation a parent can be in, having to sit and watch your child die, knowing there’s nothing you can do.

And as soon as Lirin gets another option he jumps on it. Because sometimes, sometimes you do get a miracle.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion of potential bad guys.

[Lunu’anaki Gyorn]

I haven't seen anyone mention the elephant in the RoW room... anti-investiture...

Does anti-investiture mean there is an Anti-Adonalsium out there? Or Anti-Shards? Something to think about.

[Halyo_Alex Elantrian]

15 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I haven't seen anyone mention the elephant in the RoW room... anti-investiture...

Does anti-investiture mean there is an Anti-Adonalsium out there? Or Anti-Shards? Something to think about.

I think Anti-Investiture is not naturally occuring... At least not in modern epochs of the Cosmere. It would have all been wiped out before, in the Cosmere big bang, leaving the leftover extra Investiture.

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

I agree with Halyo_Alex' take on anti investiture. It's not the product of some sort of cosmere devil. It's just a magic-physics equivalent of anti matter. Adonalsium, whatever it may be is the sum of humanity and the shards represent different aspects of it. Within that context there can't be an anti adonalsium.

Having said that, a sufficient amount of free investiture given enough time can become sentient. It makes sense that this would hold true for anti investiture as well. But, in the end it doesn't follow the narrative theme, so I don't think this is something that we will see.

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

19 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Lirin isn’t okay with that. He says that because he’s psyching himself up to watch his son die. He knows, as a surgeon, that Kaladin is already dead and it’s just a matter of making him comfortable until he goes Beyond. Note that he’s packing his medical bag even as he speaks, his actions at odds with his words.

It’s a terrible situation to be in, and Lirin doesn’t choose a very good method of dealing with it. But I can sympathize, because I’ve been in that situation. It’s probably the worst situation a parent can be in, having to sit and watch your child die, knowing there’s nothing you can do.

And as soon as Lirin gets another option he jumps on it. Because sometimes, sometimes you do get a miracle.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion of potential bad guys.

I agree. I don't think Lirin is okay with this but he chooses to jam his head under the cream instead of realizing that Kaladin is trying to save everyone and is likely to die either way. I can sympathize with someone in that situation but the point I was trying to make is Kaladins motives are altruistic.

 

... and I don't like Lirin.

[Kingsdaughter613 Steel Inquisitor]

16 minutes ago, KSub said:

I agree. I don't think Lirin is okay with this but he chooses to jam his head under the cream instead of realizing that Kaladin is trying to save everyone and is likely to die either way. I can sympathize with someone in that situation but the point I was trying to make is Kaladins motives are altruistic.

 

... and I don't like Lirin.

He says that when he believes Kaladin is dying and there’s no way to save him. That has nothing to do with his issues with Kaladin fighting. It’s his way of dealing with the fact that the only thing left he can do for his son is be there when he dies. Which is a horrible place for a parent to be in.

[Clovermite Lighteyes]

On 1/11/2021 at 11:18 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

Storms, don't say that. The only candidate in that case is Hoid 

Personally, I'm starting to suspect that Hoid is the big bad at the end, after reading this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/455-youtube-livestream-24/#e14604

On a re-read, I realized that Brandon had said "at the end of The Way of Kings" instead of "at the end of the Stormlight Archive," but even so, it started to make sense to me. We're already seeing Hoid saying a lot of "don't trust me, I will do bad things to get what I want," Right now, it seems to only be a willingness to throw Roshar under the bus in order to keep Odium trapped. I'm wondering, however, if there isn't more to it.

Seemingly none of the shards who knew him pre-shattering trust him, even if some of them are fond of him. He also seems very determined to acquire as much investiture abilities as possible, in spite of having declined becoming a shard. I suspect he realized that there would be restrictions on his freedom for becoming a shard, so he declined it to allow him to act as he pleases.

19 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

I haven't seen anyone mention the elephant in the RoW room... anti-investiture...

Does anti-investiture mean there is an Anti-Adonalsium out there? Or Anti-Shards? Something to think about.

 

I think RoW heavily implies/directly speculates by in-book characters that Gavilar's plan was to create enough anti-void light to kill Rayse and take on Odium's shard. I don't think there are "anti-shards", but I do think that a given shard's anti-light will do damage to it, if gathered in enough quantity and put into contact with the shard. I don't think that anti-light exists naturally though, as it takes intention to get the correct anti-rhythm.

Edited January 15 by Clovermite
formatting, adding reply to Halyo_alex

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

3 hours ago, Clovermite said:

Personally, I'm starting to suspect that Hoid is the big bad at the end, after reading this WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/455-youtube-livestream-24/#e14604

I read the WOB. As you mention he says the villain at the end of Way of Kings. I checked the chapter summaries on the coppermind. The epilogue is hoid meeting taln but the end note is about one of taravangians men leaving a death rattle message for him.

I want to believe he means Taravangian. 

But what if it's Taln! Dun dun dunnnn!

Edited January 15 by KSub

[Clovermite Lighteyes]

1 hour ago, KSub said:

I read the WOB. As you mention he says the villain at the end of Way of Kings. I checked the chapter summaries on the coppermind. The epilogue is hoid meeting taln but the end note is about one of taravangians men leaving a death rattle message for him.

I want to believe he means Taravangian. 

But what if it's Taln! Dun dun dunnnn!

After discussing it with @Fifth of Daybreak, he pointed out that Brandon is probably referring to Sadeas in that post, as Brandon does a good job keeping it a mystery as to whether Sadeas is ultimately going to betray Dalinar until the moment that he actually does.

I agree with his assessment. It still led to thinking that Hoid might ultimately be the final Cosmere villain, and that the final Cosmere story, detailing the shattering of adonalsium, reveals us to how he set up his evil scheme from the get go, after we've seen him defeated in Mistborn 4 (or whichever the book planned to be released before the shattering book).

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

It is definitely a possibility. Hoid always seems to be aligned with our heroes and he is doing good things in between annoying people so it doesn't feel right. Of course there's s lot of books left for that to change. I can't wait for the day Brandon gives us a hint of what Hoid is really up to.

[zpo73 Skaa]

It's Dalinar. Dalinar takes up Honor and defeats Odium. Dalinar takes up Odium as well and becomes War. Ryhthm of War. War vs Harmony. Just as Odium wanted. Evil Dalinar warped by the shards intent and driven to War is terrifying tbh...

Edited January 15 by zpo73

[Frustration Dawnsinger]

1 hour ago, zpo73 said:

It's Dalinar. Dalinar takes up Honor and defeats Odium. Dalinar takes up Odium as well and becomes War. Ryhthm of War. War vs Harmony. Just as Odium wanted. Evil Dalinar warped by the shards intent and driven to War is terrifying tbh...

War can be used just as much for good as evil.

[zpo73 Skaa]

War in this case would likely be hatred bound only by honor and compelled to fight for the sake of fighting. With evil radiants.

[Frustration Dawnsinger]

@zpo73 double posting is frowned upon by the community, you can edit your previous post if you need to say something else.

Just a heads up.

[Aspiring Writer Full Feruchemist]

On 1/13/2021 at 0:02 PM, KSub said:

Rashek is saving Scadrial for personal reasons

This is making him sound selfish. Wanting to save your home planet because you have an emotional attachment to the planet you live on is not selfish. Otherwise, every soldier that died is selfish for trying to defend their country.

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

This is making him sound selfish. Wanting to save your home planet because you have an emotional attachment to the planet you live on is not selfish. Otherwise, every soldier that died is selfish for trying to defend their country.

That makes Rashek sound selfish?

He killed Alendi who was supposed to be the hero of ages to take the power for himself. He did it in part because khlennium conquered Terris. Then he went on to conquer most of the world himself, erase the terris religion, turn all the feruchemists into mindless mistwraiths. Then when they started turning up again he had them all castrated to protect his compounding secret. And those are his people.

Then there's the subjugation of the skaa, countless wars, the canton of inquisition and soothing stations just so that he can maintain power.

Rashek just wants people to rule over, he doesn't care who they are.

[Aspiring Writer Full Feruchemist]

6 minutes ago, KSub said:

That makes Rashek sound selfish?

He killed Alendi who was supposed to be the hero of ages to take the power for himself. He did it in part because khlennium conquered Terris. Then he went on to conquer most of the world himself, erase the terris religion, turn all the feruchemists into mindless mistwraiths. Then when they started turning up again he had them all castrated to protect his compounding secret. And those are his people.

Then there's the subjugation of the skaa, countless wars, the canton of inquisition and soothing stations just so that he can maintain power.

Rashek just wants people to rule over, he doesn't care who they are.

besides the fact Ruin had been manipulating him for a long time and turned him a little insane, He was told not to let Alendi get the power. After which he took it and then tried to defeat the deepness to save the world and messed up. he decided to rule the world as a means to an end, which required not having other feruchemists getting allomancy and challenging him (And I think we can all agree that having multiple TLRs would end up causing a lot of death and destruction.) His maintaining of power was sp he could take the power again and prevent disaster. He made several plans to save humanity on scadrial, like the caverns. Yes, he was tyrannical, that doesn't change what his motives were.

Edited January 16 by Aspiring Writer

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

besides the fact Ruin had been manipulating him for a long time and turned him a little insane, He was told not to let Alendi get the power. After which he took it and then tried to defeat the deepness to save the world and messed up. he decided to rule the world as a means to an end, which required not having other feruchemists getting allomancy and challenging him (And I think we can all agree that having multiple TLRs would end up causing a lot of death and destruction.) His maintaining of power was sp he could take the power again and prevent disaster. He made several plans to save humanity on scadrial, like the caverns. Yes, he was tyrannical, that doesn't change what his motives were.

Fair enough, so the Lord Ruler had the best of intentions.

So would you argue that Rashek is a protagonist? If not why?

The point I was originally trying to make is that we know Rashek is the bad guy. I don't think Era4 will be some moral Grey area where the knights radiants are at war with harmonys forces and we see both sides as right. Even if those are the sides in the conflict we will see one as the antagonist.

[Aspiring Writer Full Feruchemist]

1 minute ago, KSub said:

Fair enough, so the Lord Ruler had the best of intentions.

So would you argue that Rashek is a protagonist? If not why?

Rashek is still the antagonist, especially during the events of The Final Empire where he doesn't seem all quite sane and definitely not a good example of morality, and the premise of that book was Skaa versus Empire, and he was the ruler of the oppressive Empire. However, I feel rashek is more complicated than a greedy tyrant and had noble and complex intentions behind the acts he committed against the Skaa and his own people and went through a lot to make sure he could save them, and some of his actions can be seen as incredibly reasonable when you think about it in a broader view (Specifically referencing the prevention of another TLR, which, perhaps done for selfish reasons, was definitely needed to prevent disaster. Maybe could've gone a different way about it.) I really like TLR (In more ways than one) and I feel there is some complexity in his character beyond selfishness (he has more of a superiority complex that fuels his hatred), but I will not deny the guy was an awful individual and needed the spear to the chest. 

 

10 minutes ago, KSub said:

The point I was originally trying to make is that we know Rashek is the bad guy. I don't think Era4 will be some moral Grey area where the knights radiants are at war with harmonys forces and we see both sides as right. Even if those are the sides in the conflict we will see one as the antagonist.

I can see it going either way. BS has confirmed that there will be an endgame to the Cosmere, so there will be an antagonist, but the conflict between Roshar and Scadrial could still be morally gray.

[Invested Spren]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:04 AM, Knight of Iron said:

A full-scale war between Roshar and Scadrial would be nice, with other cosmere nations taking sides. And the people above can be major players in it (looking at Kelsier), but this is what I would think to be cool than what I think is going to happen.

I think that would be awesome!

[Clovermite Lighteyes]

11 hours ago, zpo73 said:

It's Dalinar. Dalinar takes up Honor and defeats Odium. Dalinar takes up Odium as well and becomes War. Ryhthm of War. War vs Harmony. Just as Odium wanted. Evil Dalinar warped by the shards intent and driven to War is terrifying tbh...

I think Dalinar is a middle of the story antagonist. I think TeravOdium wins, uses him as his champion to invade other worlds, and Dalinar resorts to being the blackthorn, having lost all hope. Eventually, TeravOdium gets desharded and Dalinar takes up Honor and Odium to become War.

I think, at that point, Dalinar as God of War actually reverts to being one of the good guys, as he wages war against Kelsier, the Ghostbloods, and Autonomy. I think we have one more big surprise bad guy at the end, per my earlier post in the thread.

[Valigus Forescout]

I am convinced that cultivation will be the big enemy and that she has been manipulating everyone from behind the scenes, I think that she is currently creating a shardholder for every single shard

lift- cultivation

odium- taravangian 

honor- dalinar (maybe kaladin)

valor- kaladin

szeth- devotion

Endowment- sja anat (since I think cultivation enabled her to become independent of odium)

Autonomy- shallan

Ambition- venli

Invention- navani/ jasnah(?)

Mercy- jasnah/ adolin(?)

Dominion- no clue

whimsy- no clue

Ruin- shalash?(could have been sadeas and it didn’t work out)

preservation- taln/renarin/ lift

Is this theory crazy, yea but it’s also crazy how many of these characters very much embody exactly what you would want in a bearer of those shards. Most of them are perfectly suited to be able to control the power of the shard.

Edited January 16 by Valigus

[KSub Cobalt Guard]

I see where you're going Valigus but why would she do that? What would be the benefit of swapping vessels, especially if she gave up her own shard? 

You are trying to match characters to the shard they best represent but that won't make someone able to better use the shards. The shards are singled minded in their intent to the extreme. Just because someone is an exemplar of what a particular shard represents, people are multifaceted. We see that even the highspren are more like people than the things they represent.

Cultivation seems to have set up a regime change on Roshar but I don't think she intends to go anywhere.