Endowment’s almighty magic system (Dawnshard spoilers)

[Part of the One]

59 minutes ago, Jorr said:

It's mentioned above but I would second that we shouldnt extrapolate Rosharan shenanigans to the Cosmere. Roshar is a planet whose fauna is historically and evolutionary related to sound and rhythm. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the effects of these sounds and rhythms on the LOCAL kind of investiture can be replicated to any other planet and investiture. Bottomline: perfect pitch people are not going to create anti-investiture across the cosmere.

I'm actually not sure about this. Bronze allows allomancers to feel a pulse (rhythm) of investiture being used. Vin can even tell the difference between different types of metal being burned eventually. To me it suggests that this is a Cosmere wide phenomenon, though you would need the right combination of magics and equipment to be able to both detect and duplicate the creation of different types of anti-Investiture the way Navani has. Though Gavilar's ability to create it before means there might be still other ways of creating anti-light that we don't know about yet.

[Leuthie]

2 hours ago, Jorr said:

It's mentioned above but I would second that we shouldnt extrapolate Rosharan shenanigans to the Cosmere. Roshar is a planet whose fauna is historically and evolutionary related to sound and rhythm. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the effects of these sounds and rhythms on the LOCAL kind of investiture can be replicated to any other planet and investiture. Bottomline: perfect pitch people are not going to create anti-investiture across the cosmere.

I think you have this the wrong way around. Roshar's ecosystem is evolutionarily linked to localized free Investiture (Stormlight). Most likely, Investiture itself is inextricably linked to light and sound (and rhythm).

The major difference between Roshar and other planets we've seen is that Roshar has a cyclical release of free Investiture into the Physical Realm that has defined its flora, fauna and geography. Sel's Investiture is locked in its Cognitive Realm. Scadrial and Nalthis are more "normal", with all Investiture locked in the Spiritual Realm. The first test of this outside Roshar would have to be on Scadrial mists, Scadrial's version of gaseous Investiture. Specific rhythms should attract them or cause them to retreat.

Sanderson's Second Law of Magic: Limitations > Power. Creation of a power that specifically limits what magic can do comports very well with this law. Going forward in the Cosmere, having direct counters to magic will be important to make sure the magic systems don't overpower the stories. Sanderson isn't going to limit them to Roshar.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Leuthie

[IndigoAjah]

1 hour ago, Part of the One said:

I'm actually not sure about this. Bronze allows allomancers to feel a pulse (rhythm) of investiture being used. Vin can even tell the difference between different types of metal being burned eventually. To me it suggests that this is a Cosmere wide phenomenon, though you would need the right combination of magics and equipment to be able to both detect and duplicate the creation of different types of anti-Investiture the way Navani has. Though Gavilar's ability to create it before means there might be still other ways of creating anti-light that we don't know about yet.

Someone provided me a WoB on another thread to say that Seekers could hear Radiants and distinguish classes, so I think it's safe to say it's a Cosmeric concept.

 

Also, musicality is a key concept on Nalthis too. 

[basement_boi]

Spoilers for Rhythm of War Epilogue

Spoiler

Maybe, just maybe, Taravangian somehow learned about Endowement’s magic system when he Ascended. That could be why he messed with Hoid’s Breath, so that he couldn’t help make anti voidlight

 

[mathiau]

47 minutes ago, basement_boi said:

Spoilers for Rhythm of War Epilogue

  Hide contents

Maybe, just maybe, Taravangian somehow learned about Endowement’s magic system when he Ascended. That could be why he messed with Hoid’s Breath, so that he couldn’t help make anti voidlight

 

Kelsier said he felt like he could have learned how hemalurgy worked when he was Preservation, and TLR kind of did, so the first part is very possible

[Koloss17]

On 1/12/2021 at 0:31 PM, mathiau said:

Patji isn't responsible for the magic on 1st of the dawn, nor it's perpendicularity. Everything was there when he came

Doesn’t 6th of dusk’s planet have no shard?

[mathiau]

Just now, Koloss17 said:

Doesn’t 6th of dusk’s planet have no shard?

In the beginning it had no shard, then Patji came, then he left (he's still there around the times of SA, it's the one who wrote the second letter in Oathbringer)

[Koloss17]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

In the beginning it had no shard, then Patji came, then he left (he's still there around the times of SA, it's the one who wrote the second letter in Oathbringer)

Although Patji is an avatar of autonomy, not a shard.

[mathiau]

Just now, Koloss17 said:

Although Patji is an avatar of autonomy, not a shard.

Brandon still consider him a shard

[Koloss17]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Brandon still consider him a shard

Quote

 

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

 

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you

 

These quotes seem to say Patji is an avatar.

[Leuthie]

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

These quotes seem to say Patji is an avatar.

From Brandon's descriptions, Autonomy's avatars are large enough chunks of Investiture to be considered Shards themselves. Autonomy creates autonomous Shards out of its own Investiture.

[Halyo_Alex]

12 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

From Brandon's descriptions, Autonomy's avatars are large enough chunks of Investiture to be considered Shards themselves. Autonomy creates autonomous Shards out of its own Investiture.

So there's an undefined number of Autonomies out there?

...Weirdly fitting.

[mathiau]

6 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

These quotes seem to say Patji is an avatar.

Yes but he also said that in the same wob

Quote

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. 

3 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

So there's an undefined number of Autonomies out there?

...Weirdly fitting.

Exactly

[Koloss17]

5 hours ago, mathiau said:

Yes but he also said that in the same wob

Exactly

I think @Leuthie explained it well:

8 hours ago, Leuthie said:

From Brandon's descriptions, Autonomy's avatars are large enough chunks of Investiture to be considered Shards themselves. Autonomy creates autonomous Shards out of its own Investiture.

Not quite one of the 16, but big!

[Clovermite]

On 1/12/2021 at 1:31 PM, Part of the One said:

I'm actually not sure about this. Bronze allows allomancers to feel a pulse (rhythm) of investiture being used. Vin can even tell the difference between different types of metal being burned eventually. To me it suggests that this is a Cosmere wide phenomenon, though you would need the right combination of magics and equipment to be able to both detect and duplicate the creation of different types of anti-Investiture the way Navani has. Though Gavilar's ability to create it before means there might be still other ways of creating anti-light that we don't know about yet.

To add to what you're saying here, Vin hears specific pulsing when the "shadow person" (preservation or ruin impersonating preservation, depending on the scene) draws near. She also hears drum like pulses that lead her to the well of ascension. I personally believe that the pulses she hears from the well of ascension is Preservation's rhythm

I believe that Rhythms and "lights" are a fundamental nature of the cosmere. On Roshar, the stormlight is just so easily accessible to everyone that getting Honor's light is as simple as hanging a sphere out in the highstorm. Getting Harmony's light will be much trickier, as normally it doesn't directly manifest in the physical realm. Allomancers channel the investiture through the metal that they burn, and it gets immediately used up in the effect that the given metal directs it towards. I think one pathway to getting "Harmony Light" would be to store investiture in a nicrosil metalmind, then find some way to convert that raw investiture into "light".

 

On 1/11/2021 at 3:45 PM, KSub said:

As others have mentioned Endowment didn't really design her magic system. I think the fact that it is so easily accessible is just due to the fact that she is the Endowment shard. Her intent is to endow power.

One interesting thing is that holding a lot of stormlight is suggested to be dangerous but holding a lot of breaths is perfectly fine and maintainable.

 

I think, as others have alluded to in this thread, that this is due to the nature of breaths being a pre-packaged container and interface for investiture, while Stormlight is raw investiture itself. The best analogy I can think of it is a motor (breath) versus gasoline (stormlight)., It's much safer to handle a motor, but you are restricted to what the motor is designed to. Motors are very versatile and modular though, so that's not usually a problem. The gasoline is much more versatile. It can be directly used as a weapon itself. It's also more volatile, and therefore dangerous - usually requiring pouring it into some kind machine (like a motor) to get the most effective use out of it. It can be used in a motor, but it can also be used to fuel many other machines - pumps, internal combustion engines, gas lamps (a bit of a stretch, I know, as usually this takes Kerosene). Motors can also be used to create pumps and internal combustion engines, but it usually requires setup than taking an existing pump or ICE and fueling it with gasoline.

Beyond this though, I think it also comes down to the intent of the investiture. Stormlight actively pushes people to act - the intent of Honor generally requires direct action. Breaths, on the other hand, don't seem to nudge their holders into any kind of direction. The nature of endowment is to provide a gift that the recipient chooses to use however they like.

 

[mathiau]

16 minutes ago, Clovermite said:

To add to what you're saying here, Vin hears specific pulsing when the "shadow person" (preservation or ruin impersonating preservation, depending on the scene) draws near. She also hears drum like pulses that lead her to the well of ascension. I personally believe that the pulses she hears from the well of ascension is Preservation's rhythm

I believe that Rhythms and "lights" are a fundamental nature of the cosmere. On Roshar, the stormlight is just so easily accessible to everyone that getting Honor's light is as simple as hanging a sphere out in the highstorm. Getting Harmony's light will be much trickier, as normally it doesn't directly manifest in the physical realm. Allomancers channel the investiture through the metal that they burn, and it gets immediately used up in the effect that the given metal directs it towards. I think one pathway to getting "Harmony Light" would be to store investiture in a nicrosil metalmind, then find some way to convert that raw investiture into "light".

We have not seen Harmony's light, but we've seen his mist

[Mage_914]

On 1/12/2021 at 7:31 AM, stonewalker16 said:

I don't think they'd be able to do this. Navani was able to do it because she already had access to voidlight to create antivoidlight, so it is possible that the investiture still has connection to the Shard it is attached to even when it is turned into anti-investiture. So for an Awakener to create anti-investiture, they'd probably have to use up some of their breath to make it. That is, if it were that simple to make it (Navani had to suspend the investiture in a vacuum to change it). But with those principles, no Awakener would make anti-Breath that way because doing so would probably kill them when it reacts with the person's remaining Breath.

I was thinking that the Awakener could infuse the objects with normal breath like normal awakening, probably with some sort of advanced command for the breath to stay only in one part of the object until a command is given.

 

Then do the same thing with the other side of the object but this time use perfect pitch to match the right tone and intent in order to make it anti-breath. The conversion would take place outside the body for obvious reasons.

 

Then give the signal and the two breaths will then rush towards the center of the object, combine, and explode at the point of contact. This would turn the outside of the object into shrapnel. Boom, yin yang grenade.

 

The two issues with this are the lack of vacuum and keeping the breath contained in only half and object but I feel those are problems that can be overcome.

 

The separation of the parts is simply a matter of perception. Wax did something similar in a flashback involving steelpushing. By thinking of a bullet as one thing he pushed on the whole bullet. By thinking of the bullet as a casing, a primer, and a projectile, he was able to see multiple push lines. The same principle could be used here.

 

The vacuum is necessary to separate the investiture from other sources that would hinder its conversion, but breath is already keyed to a person. Its not so much endowments investiture as it is the awakeners investiture. It could very easily be the case that separation is only necessary from investiture of the same source, which in this case would simply mean breathing it out.

 

That last issue with the vacuum is admittedly the haziest but everything else here I'm fairly confident could work.

[mathiau]

44 minutes ago, Mage_914 said:

The vacuum is necessary to separate the investiture from other sources that would hinder its conversion, but breath is already keyed to a person. Its not so much endowments investiture as it is the awakeners investiture. It could very easily be the case that separation is only necessary from investiture of the same source, which in this case would simply mean breathing it out.

The vacuum is here to separate investiture from the Rhythms of Roshar, since they can be heard by seekers it's safe to say they're not present on most other planets, especially in the ones Endowment doesn't affect, removing the vacuum issue. I still don't think it'd be as easy as you seems to think, if corrupting breath via command is even possible it'd likely require a high heightening.

[Mage_914]

Why would it require a high heightening? Navani did it with some basic equipment and some vocal training. The only things required, it would seem, is the right tone and the right intent. Intent is easy and the tone is helped along by perfect pitch. Its literally the second power you get as you ascend the heightenings.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 1/11/2021 at 4:53 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

Why do you say this? We have no reason to believe that Shards don't directly create their magic systems, but multiple examples from Mistborn of shards purposefully doing so... unless I'm missing something?

The Metallic Arts were not "created":

Quote

Kaimipono

On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

On 1/11/2021 at 10:03 AM, Serack said:

I think that may be generally true, but in Secret History, Leras told Kelsier that he deliberately crafted Alomancy to have 16 metals as a sign to humanity that Ati couldn't change.  

Sixteen was already the number of metals (SH 1.2), which is why he chose it for his "sign" (probably the mists Snapping atium Mistings?):

Quote

“I needed a sign,” Fuzz whispered, stopping near Kelsier. “Something he couldn’t change. A sign of the weapon I’d buried. The boiling point of water, I think. Maybe its freezing point? But what if the units change over the years? I needed something that would be remembered always. Something they’ll immediately recognize.” He leaned in. “Sixteen.”

“Six … teen?” Kelsier said.

“Sixteen.” Fuzz grinned. “Clever, don’t you think?”

“Because it means…”

“The number of metals,” Fuzz said. “In Allomancy.”

“There are ten. Eleven, if you count the one I discovered.”

“No! No, no, that’s stupid. Sixteen. It’s the perfect number. They’ll see. They have to see.”

 

On 1/11/2021 at 6:00 PM, mathiau said:

have we asked him whether Rlain is a voidbinder or a warbinder? his spren is blue instead of red if I recall correctly)

Glys is red.

[ScadrianTank]

After stewing on Lights and Intent things we got in RoW, I get a sneaking suspicion that what Navani did with inverting tones to change Intent is similar to how Awakeners break Commands of Awakened objects. Like using the senses granted by the Breaths to "attune" to the Intent of the Awakened object, then inverting it to break the Command or take it over, maybe?

[stonewalker16]

On 1/17/2021 at 1:17 PM, ScadrianTank said:

After stewing on Lights and Intent things we got in RoW, I get a sneaking suspicion that what Navani did with inverting tones to change Intent is similar to how Awakeners break Commands of Awakened objects. Like using the senses granted by the Breaths to "attune" to the Intent of the Awakened object, then inverting it to break the Command or take it over, maybe?

I don't think this is right. If the Awakeners were somehow creating anti-investiture to Break Commands, we'd see lifeless explode, not get taken over, or at least have the Breath inside them destroyed. 

[ScadrianTank]

@stonewalker16 I meant that they are trying to invert the Command itself, not the Breaths that were used to Awaken an object. 

[stonewalker16]

7 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

@stonewalker16 I meant that they are trying to invert the Command itself, not the Breaths that were used to Awaken an object. 

My bad, but I think that they're not so much inverting the Command as changing the passphrase so that they can add a new Command, since Lifeless can take new Commands easily

[eissturm]

4 hours ago, stonewalker16 said:

My bad, but I think that they're not so much inverting the Command as changing the passphrase so that they can add a new Command, since Lifeless can take new Commands easily

Lifeless can accept new orders, but I doubt you could change the Command something was Awakened with