Koloss17

Have we seen...a topaz?

29 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

So let me start with this. The dawnshard that is different from the rest is likely the one Hoid held (which was a topaz) and that is now dead.

so we know Hoid held the name topaz because of him being the bearer of the first gem, which was a topaz.
 

from the coppermind:

Quote

“The First Gem is a topaz with magical properties[1] that Hoid once carried and from which he took his name for a while.[2][3]

And we know that title is linked to him being a dawnshard from this WoB:

Quote

luiz_m2

Is the fact that Hoid has been a Dawnshard related in some way with the "bearer of the first gem" title?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes indeed.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 9, 2020)


and we know that the topaz is now “dead” from this letter that frost sent:

Quote

“Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead? And do you no longer hide behind the name of your old master?”

 

From all that, it is easy to connect some dots. 


Now that we have that out of the way, Have we seen the Topaz? The Dawnshard? Not just in the stormlight archive, but in any of the Cosmere. A reference to a strange orange gem or a magical stone? Where is the Dawnshard?

Edited by Koloss17
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I think that this is a great theory, I think it makes total sense that the first gem is a dawnshard.

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3 hours ago, Eri said:

Oh yeah, I based the theory on you and someone on Reddit’s post. I just drew some conclusions from your thing and fused them with that other human’s thing. I didn’t want to draw much attention to the theory, since it was just drawing lines. But I did need that to be concluded for the Topaz search.

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On 9.01.2021 at 4:39 AM, Koloss17 said:

So let me start with this. The dawnshard that is different from the rest is likely the one Hoid held (which was a topaz) and that is now dead.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I'm not sure about this particular point. Topaz is dead, but it's entirely possible that it was just a kind of Vessel (for the lack of a better word). Maybe the mural that used to contain/be the Change Dawnshard might be considered dead is a similar manner? We know that the Sleepless wanted to kill Rysn to get the Dawnshard back, so the death of the Vessel doesn't really affect it

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On 1/8/2021 at 8:39 PM, Koloss17 said:

So let me start with this. The dawnshard that is different from the rest is likely the one Hoid held (which was a topaz) and that is now dead.

so we know Hoid held the name topaz because of him being the bearer of the first gem, which was a topaz.
 

from the coppermind:

And we know that title is linked to him being a dawnshard from this WoB:


and we know that the topaz is now “dead” from this letter that frost sent:

 

From all that, it is easy to connect some dots. 


Now that we have that out of the way, Have we seen the Topaz? The Dawnshard? Not just in the stormlight archive, but in any of the Cosmere. A reference to a strange orange gem or a magical stone? Where is the Dawnshard?

Maybe the original Dawnshards were some of the fundamental "things" of the magic systems. One could be a gem, one could be a metal, one could be a gas/mist/light, and one could be something to do with color?

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Would be interesting if the dawnshards were all in gems at one point. Perhaps "bearer of the first gem" means other people had the 2,3 and 4th gems. We know one was different than the others, but they could all sill have been gems. 

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4 hours ago, basement_boi said:

 

Maybe the original Dawnshards were some of the fundamental "things" of the magic systems. One could be a gem, one could be a metal, one could be a gas/mist/light, and one could be something to do with color?

Seeing the future in a mural is a part of the Awakening magic system. And, I guess so is the stained glass Renarin sees. That could be part of light maybe? Ot its own thing?

Metal, Gems, Sound, Light? Possibly rock with stone shamanism and aethers? 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Yes, but can a Dawnshard even die? What would it mean for a Dawnshard to die? It's a primal Command... wouldn't there be more of an effect? Like the Cosmere unraveling?

But good point. This could be the Dawnshard that is different from the rest.

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Brandon Sanderson

Hoid was a Dawnshard at some point in the deep past, and the reason he (even still) cannot physically harm people, or even eat meat, is related to the changes this made to his spirit. (Consider this the same fundamental principle as savanthood.) The few of you who have read Dragonsteel know that him being a Dawnshard was also the source of his immortality in that book, though the terms were different back then. (The word Dawnshard was never mentioned, for example--though the primary story of Dragonsteel (which is no longer cannon) was about several people who unwittingly become Dawnshards.)

And a preemptive RAFO to all questions on this point. :)

Dawnshard Annotations (Nov. 6, 2020)

The Topaz was a Dawnshard at one point. Hoid had the Topaz which was Dawnshard and then Hoid became a Dawnshard himself.  At some point he stopped being a Dawnshard, but it had lasting effects on him like his immortality, not being able to eat meat or physically harm others. 

If the rest of the Dawnshards work like the CHANGE Dawnshard, then whatever is currently holding the Dawnshard IS the Dawnshard. If Hoid was a Dawnshard he must have wittingly or unwittingly (heh), transferred the Dawnshard from the gem into himself rendering the gem dead. 

As to where the Dawnshard went after Hoid ...

Quote

"Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given." WoK Ch. 12 Epigraph 

Perhaps Frost has it or had it.  This letter from Wit to Frost states that Frost gained a form of immortality he did not have before. Maybe Wit passed it on to his buddy or Frost had a different one. Or Frost had one, he doesn't anymore, but as with Wit, Frost was fundamentally altered by the Dawnshard to be essentially immortal. 

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On 27/01/2021 at 3:07 PM, Child of Hodor said:

Perhaps Frost has it or had it.  This letter from Wit to Frost states that Frost gained a form of immortality he did not have before. Maybe Wit passed it on to his buddy or Frost had a different one. Or Frost had one, he doesn't anymore, but as with Wit, Frost was fundamentally altered by the Dawnshard to be essentially immortal. 

Frost is a dragon so he's probably already essentially immortal

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2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Frost is a dragon so he's probably already essentially immortal

Which is why the letter is confusing (emphasis mine):

Quote

Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given. I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think.

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On 03/02/2021 at 9:47 PM, mathiau said:

Frost is a dragon so he's probably already essentially immortal

I haven't read Brandon's unpublished stuff. Are Dragons immortal in the cosmere? I would have assumed not.

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20 hours ago, KSub said:

I haven't read Brandon's unpublished stuff. Are Dragons immortal in the cosmere? I would have assumed not.

Depends what you mean by immortal. I believe they are immortal in the sense that they don't die of old age or have extremely long lives. But they can be killed or die from misfortune. 

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7 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Depends what you mean by immortal. I believe they are immortal in the sense that they don't die of old age or have extremely long lives. But they can be killed or die from misfortune. 

Fair enough. I mean immortal in the ageless sense.

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25 minutes ago, KSub said:

Fair enough. I mean immortal in the ageless sense.

Yea here's the WoB on that:

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Regarding a certain dragon mentioned in Stormlight Archive, and dragons in general in the cosmere: is functional immortality a natural part of a dragon's lifespan?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The way I have written dragons in the cosmere… ALL dragons are naturally functionally immortal. They can be killed, but they don't age.

Supanova 2017 - Sydney (June 16, 2017)

So, yes they indeed are immortal in that sense. 

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So Frost must have the other form of immortality then. The kind that is granted by a large well of investiture.

Which makes this all the more confusing 

Quote
Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)
#2 

Questioner

Anything you can tell us about Frost?

Brandon Sanderson

What do you want to know about Frost?

Questioner

Everything.

Brandon Sanderson

Then no. I'm not going to tell you everything about Frost. He's still alive.

Questioner

He's immortal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. He can be killed, he's just functionally immortal, he doesn't age.

 

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Random thought, but could the First Gem be Adonalsium’s gemheart?

I agree that whatever it is, it definitely would seem to have been a Dawnshard. 

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My personal theory is that the First Gem held Adonalisium CS

And it finally went into the Beyond.

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3 hours ago, Kahlani said:

Random thought, but could the First Gem be Adonalsium’s gemheart?

I agree that whatever it is, it definitely would seem to have been a Dawnshard. 

Why would Adonalsium have a gemheart?

Are you using "being a Dawnshard" in the sense "Rysn is a Dawnshard" or in the sense "Change is a Dawnshard"?

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20 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Why would Adonalsium have a gemheart?

Are you using "being a Dawnshard" in the sense "Rysn is a Dawnshard" or in the sense "Change is a Dawnshard"?

Probably in the smae way the mural was a dawnshard.

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7 hours ago, mathiau said:

Why would Adonalsium have a gemheart?

Are you using "being a Dawnshard" in the sense "Rysn is a Dawnshard" or in the sense "Change is a Dawnshard"?

I’m agreeing that the Topaz/First Gem that Hoid had was a Dawnshard... I don’t really know what you mean. I’m not saying “ah yes this is the Dawnshard with the Command of ‘Gemheart.’” That doesn’t make any sense lol. Just that the Gem held a Dawnshard.

As for the Adonalsium gemheart bit, like I said, it was just a random thought. Why would Adonalsium have a gemheart? I don’t know. But why not? I was thinking along the lines that Roshar was created by Adonalsium, and the Singers and living creatures there have gemhearts, so maybe the inspiration for this came from Adonalsium’s own? Also the fact that it’s called the First Gem, and Adonalsium being the creator of the Cosmere, it made sense in my fleeting thought process that it would be cool for the first gem to be the gemheart of the first being. 

 

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Reading through the thread, I suspect "[Bearer of the] Dawnshard" and "Bearer of the First Gem" are two distinct titles that shouldn't be conflated.  They're related, which only means that one lead to the other: For all we know, Brandon means that Hoid's title as "Bearer of the First Gem" is what lead to him holding a Dawnshard.

Pure Speculation: I think Hoid, realizing the Dawnshard was affecting him, tried to contain it within the topaz (the same way Change was 'contained' in the mural) so he could access its power without holding it constantly.  That's why the only notable change is his inability to inflict harm; he didn't hold it for long.  At first he succeeded and, no longer the Dawnshard's Vessel, returned to being Cephandrias, only now bearing the first gem to contain a Dawnshard.  Unfortunately, he couldn't get it back out and the topaz eventually 'died.'  Maybe he actually held Change, and the act of storing it to avoid changing dis-Connected him from it and it just leaked out of the topaz. Hey, perhaps he called himself Topaz because he felt that he was just like the rock - something which held immense power and did nothing but let it go.  I don't know, I just work here.

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4 minutes ago, CruelSadist said:

Unfortunately, he couldn't get it back out and the topaz eventually 'died.' 

How does a Dawnshard die?

 

4 minutes ago, CruelSadist said:

Maybe he actually held Change, and the act of storing it to avoid changing dis-Connected him from it and it just leaked out of the topaz. 

What does’ ‘storing’ mean in this context

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

How does a Dawnshard die?

Imagine the holder of the Dawnshard doing something so diametrically opposed to the Intent of the Dawnshard that it backlashes and fragments the Dawnshard until it's functionally unable to be put back together, and for all intents and purposes dead. Like maybe murdering the major force in charge of things, causing untold change throughout the cosmere for the rest of time.

I'm kind of banking on Hoid's Dawnshard having been the opposite of Change (some form of Stasis/Stability/Survival theme) but that's just because I like the theory and will probably be hanging my hat on that until I get confirmation the other way.

23 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

What does’ ‘storing’ mean in this context

Presumably the same thing as what was done to shove the Change Dawnshard into the mural.

Apparently he brought the fundamentals of Feruchemy to Scadrial in their deep history, so he's clearly no stranger to storage of Investiture.

Edited by Invocation
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