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What if Taravangian were too decide he had to kill singers to save his people and so book five they need to save the singers.

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Posted (edited)

I love that theory but I think that when at the end of RoW when TOdium said that his new goal was to save everyone he meant to take over the cosmere to save everyone. Number one, the genocide of a total population is not, "saving everyone". Two, if is goal his to take the entire cosmere why would he kill his own loyal army.

Edited by Theoryspren
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Posted (edited)

I think TOdium is in over his head and he'll probably end up dying too by the end of Book 5. His goal is to save everyone, and he is still fresh enough to be able to not be subsumed by Odium. That's probably the reason why he will die.

Edited by Vissy
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On 1/8/2021 at 0:56 PM, Vissy said:

I think TOdium is in over his head and he'll probably end up dying too by the end of Book 5. His goal is to save everyone, and he is still fresh enough to be able to not be subsumed by Odium. That's probably the reason why he will die.

That makes no sense, the fact he is new to the power means it's intent hasn't taken hold, which means it is the best time for him to act. It would be weird for him to die in what will basically be his prime. Also, narratively, it is not a good idea to replace your replacement of an antagonist so soon.

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51 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

it is not a good idea to replace your replacement of an antagonist so soon.

Just thought I'd state that Taravangian is the longest standing villain in Stormlight Archives.

We don't meet Odium until book 3 and while he is the most dangerous villain, he wasn't replaced, he was subsumed.

Taravangian's death in book 5 wouldn't be bad story telling because the man has only just ascended but he has been around since book 1.

Considering all the horrible things he's done and justified under the umbrella of the 'greater good' it is remarkable that not a single person in-world has questioned the inconsistencies, save for Dalinar perhaps, of the greater good aligning with Taravangian's goals extending only as far as saving HIS family, HIS friends and HIS subjects and him being satisfied as that being the only outcome.

Taravangian has been wrong about the Diagram in many fundamental ways and his arrogance was a problem for him as a mortal. Imagine his arrogance as a God because hubris seems to be Taravangian's greatest opponent.

That doesn't mean I think this will happen but on principal alone, Taravangian's Death Rattle Farm ALONE earns him a prolonged death, in my opinion.

If Taravangian dies in Book 5, it won't be because he made a mistake, it will be because he has absolutely no control over his own desires.

That said.

 

Todium will begin by seeking the complete domination of Shadesmar by murdering Radiant Spren and forcing them to choose complete annihilation or to serve him. Between Ishar's Nightmare Factory and this possibility, the Spren of Shadesmar will be in dire straits indeed and I think many will die before any sort of defence can be organised.

Edited by Crimson_Russ
Grammatical Errors
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1 minute ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Just thought I'd state that Taravangian is the longest standing villain in Stormlight Archives.

We don't meet Odium until book 3 and while he is the most dangerous villain, he wasn't replaced, he was subsumed.

... That is actually pretty fair, yeah, I agree. It's not like Odium died and an unknown henchmen ascended into his place, Taravangian was around longer, we have seen more his story, motives, and capabilities, and he was basically in his lowest point before ascending. Subsuming is definitely how i would describe it.

 

3 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Taravangian's death in book 5 wouldn't be bad story telling because the man has only just ascended but he has been around since book 1.

I would say that it seems pretty foreshadowing that he will be having a far longer and lasting effect, so it would be a bit quick to kill him, and the fact there are five other books gives BS the liberty to give the antagonist a victory, which is something I like seeing.

 

5 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Considering all the horrible things he's done and justified under the umbrella of the 'greater good' it is remarkable that not a single person in-world has questioned the inconsistencies, save for Dalinar perhaps, of the greater good aligning with Taravangian's goals extending only as far as saving HIS family, HIS friends and HIS subjects and him being satisfied as that being the only outcome.

Well, he wanted to save as many as possible, and when it was clear he couldn't, he decided to save what he could, that being the kingdom he ruled, which is all he could speak for. It's made clear he couldn't speak for the entire world as he wasn't really allowed to speak for them, like how Odium no longer had control over his Regals.

9 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

That doesn't mean I think this will happen but on principal alone, Taravangian's Death Rattle Farm earns him a prolonged death, in my opinion.

Well, that would be difficult to do, but on principle, I still think there's an argument for it. he knew these would give him hints of the future, so he had decent reasons, and he made sure to try and pick patients that he couldn't help, so he didn't kill anyone that wasn't going to die eventually.

 

11 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

If Taravangian dies in Book 5, it won't be because he made a mistake, it will be because he has absolutely no control over his own desires.

Why do you say this?

 

12 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Todium will begin by seeking the complete domination of Shadesmar by murdering Radiant Spren and forcing them to choose complete annihilation or to serve him. Between Ishar's Nightmare Factory and this possibility, the Spren of Shadesmar will be in dire straits indeed and I think many will die before any sort of defence can be organised.

Um, again, what makes you say this? He could easily manipulate them rather than use threats. 

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3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

he knew these would give him hints of the future, so he had decent reasons, and he made sure to try and pick patients that he couldn't help, so he didn't kill anyone that wasn't going to die eventually.

Taravangian didn't know who would speak a death rattle and who wouldn't, he simply had to hope that killing them would manifest with at least some of them giving him what he wanted. Also he absolutely did not use terminally ill patients exclusively, he kidnapped people off the street, specifically those who would not be noticed regardless of their age or situation. He murdered them all in the hopes that at least some of them would produce a death rattle.

 

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Why do you say this?

Todium's first thought upon ascending was that he would save the entirety of the Cosmere. He may be a Vessel, but he still has control over himself enough to succumb to the same mistakes he made while mortal. He hasn't changed, he will be absolutely certain his way is right but cannot conceive of anyone else doing better than him because he is a 'God', which was also mortal Taravangian's greatest flaw, that believing in his own divinity was the greatest gift to Roshar.

I say it because Taravangian is arrogant and will be a thousand times moreso now.

10 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Um, again, what makes you say this? He could easily manipulate them rather than use threats.

This wasn't directed at you specifically, this was just in answer to the thread, I should have made that clearer. 

However using threats IS a form of manipulation, you'd need to actually commit a mass slaughter of Spren to:

1. Prove he could; and 

2. Be as persuasive as possible when it came time to give the Spren the ultimatum.

 

But Shadesmar WILL be a battlegound in Book 5, it's being set up to be an awful one considering recent developments and discoveries. 

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1 minute ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Also he absolutely did not use terminally ill patients exclusively, he kidnapped people off the street, specifically those who would not be noticed regardless of their age or situation.

Wait, what? Where was this? I don't remember this.

 

2 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Todium's first thought upon ascending was that he would save the entirety of the Cosmere. He may be a Vessel, but he still has control over himself enough to succumb to the same mistakes he made while mortal. He hasn't changed, he will be absolutely certain his way is right but cannot conceive of anyone else doing better than him because he is a 'God', which was also mortal Taravangian's greatest flaw, that believing in his own divinity was the greatest gift to Roshar.

I say it because Taravangian is arrogant and will be a thousand times moreso now.

...agreed.

 

3 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

This wasn't directed at you specifically, this was just in answer to the thread, I should have made that clearer. 

However using threats IS a form of manipulation, you'd need to actually commit a mass slaughter of Spren to:

1. Prove he could; and 

2. Be as persuasive as possible when it came time to give the Spren the ultimatum.

 

But Shadesmar WILL be a battlegound in Book 5, it's being set up to be an awful one considering recent developments and discoveries. 

i agree threats are manipulation, but I think Trav would just make the spren hate the humans and join him considering many did consider doing so. There is nothing saying that this will be his approach considering Trav seems to be more of a planner than anything.

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9 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Wait, what? Where was this? I don't remember this.

In Chapter 71 - Recorded in Blood - TWoK:

Quote

“We try to select only the worst cases to move here, for once they are brought to this place, we cannot let them leave if they begin to recover.” He turned to Szeth, eyes sorrowful. “Sometimes we need more bodies than the terminally sick can provide. And so we must bring the forgotten and the lowly. Those who will not be missed.”

It's the primary reason I despise Taravangian because he cannot tell who will speak and who will not, so he takes those who have no voice and then will act as though he is fighting for the voiceless.

 

13 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

but I think Trav would just make the spren hate the humans and join him considering many did consider doing so.

Maybe. I do think this is possible but I just don't see how unless the Spren truly have something to lose. But this could be a direction he could take. It will certainly feel like the end of the world if Spren start to willingly follow Todium. It would be a terrifying prospect.

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1 minute ago, Crimson_Russ said:

It's the primary reason I despise Taravangian because he cannot tell who will speak and who will not, so he takes those who have no voice and then will act as though he is fighting for the voiceless.

Okay, I had forgotten that line. Yeah, Trav bad. That crosses my line of questionable morality. 

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Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

Okay, I had forgotten that line. Yeah, Trav bad. That crosses my line of questionable morality. 

Damnation is too good for him. Which is why I am truly hoping for karmic justice in the best (worst for him) possible way. I don't think it will happen like that but I do have hope for something spectacular.

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2 minutes ago, Crimson_Russ said:

Damnation is too good for him. Which is why I am truly hoping for karmic justice in the best (worst for him) possible way. I don't think it will happen like that but I do have hope for something spectacular.

Certainly understand the sentiment, though I admit my position is slightly more reserved. There are still things he could do to make me hate him more. Amaram has earned more of my contempt than Trav, for example.

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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The reason I think TOdium is going to die by the end of Book Five is because of his arrogance, yes, and because I think Koravellium/Cultivation is just far more competent than he is. And because it would be extremely disappointing to see a fresh Vessel just easily outwit/defeat an ancient Shard who has the upper hand on him, both in power (I suspect Odium has left itself in a very vulnerable position already with the Everstorm and how much of Odium's Investiture has been divested into the Roshar system) and in knowledge. I am definitely on Cultivation's side here, however, overall, so I may be a little biased! 

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I very much doubt TOdium will die in the next novel.  What I see is BS giving a fully-fleshed-out backstory and motivation for what will be the Biggest Bad in the Cosmere for many books to come.  Odium is now one of only two Shards (the other being Harmony) for which we have any direct knowledge of their Vessel as a human pre-Ascension.  He's spent significant parts of 4 novels showing us Taravangian as a person... I just don't see that narrative work being thrown away so easily.

9 hours ago, Vissy said:

The reason I think TOdium is going to die by the end of Book Five is because of his arrogance, yes, and because I think Koravellium/Cultivation is just far more competent than he is. And because it would be extremely disappointing to see a fresh Vessel just easily outwit/defeat an ancient Shard who has the upper hand on him

Odium will not defeat Cultivation, nor will he be defeated by her... at least, not in book 5.  They will work to find ways to deceive and manipulate each other, yes, but neither wants a direct confrontation.  I see books 1-5 setting up TOdium as a fully-formed and terrifying adversary for books 6-10. 

I'm really wondering what ongoing effects we will see of Cultivation having touched Taravangian; does she still have a Connection to Odium's Vessel, and if so, what are some ways that might play out?  I'd guess the boon/curse thing is no longer directly relevant, but she did have a hand in rewriting his spirit web... I believe that fact will become very important at some point.

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There is a vast moral difference between trying to save what you can from destruction versus helping the destruction along so as to be able to negotiate with it to save your family and city.

The Diagram was helping Odium's ultimate goals though with the twist of making it beneficial for Odium to negotiate with them instead of just destroy them. The Diagram was actively working against the possible future where Odium loses, because Mr. T saw that outcome as so unlikely as to not be worth pursuing.

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I think Taravangian is going to become the ultimate boss. He is way more crafty than Rayse and it is not possible to resist a Shard's intent for long. Taravangian's morality (or lack of it, as some may call it) and craftyness combined with Odium's Intent and Power is extremely dangerous. 

I'm not sure why Cultivation did this but she should have good reasons. It is obvious that Cultivation is the pro gamer here and she has planned for Taravangian's Ascension. She killed Rayse by touching like three people only. (There's probably a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff, but still) I think they will manipulate each other but killig each other? Very unlikely. 

p.s. I do like Taravangian's personality, but that's a matter of personal preference and beside the point.

Edited by Alicila
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I think TOd is willing to sacrifice himself for his purpose and thats part of what what makes him more dangerous and capable than Odium. What if part of his plan is to unite Honor and Odium shards similar to Harmony?

Edited by Waffles
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