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[Theory] Kaladin as potential vessel for Odium


Frustration

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So I was thinking about Kaladin's depression and I started thinking about how Odium could be used as a cure. It's emotional effects countering Kaladin's natural apathy.

Additionally RoW spent a lot of time building a connection between Kaladin and Odium, including red golden eyes.

What do you think?

Edited by Frustration
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46 minutes ago, Theoryspren said:

I think the whole point of Kaladin's arc in book 4 is showing how he is tempted especially at the end when he is falling and is attempting to commit suicide but that in the end he is strong and rejected Odium like Dalinar.

Agreed. Kaladin's journey has Odium as an escape route that he must resist, not something to help heal himself.

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11 hours ago, Frustration said:

So I was thinking about Kaladin's depression and I started thinking about how Odium could be used as a cure. It's emotional effects countering Kaladin's natural apathy.

Additionally RoW spent a lot of time building a connection between Kaladin and Odium, including red golden eyes.

What do you think?

Hate as a cure for depression? Tell me more!

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20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium isn't just hate

Hate doesn't like questions

Odium does

Hate doesn't inflame other emotions,

Voidlight does.

Odium is something more, all the Shards are.

An external inflaming of Passion that leads, ultimately, to a complete Void of emotion as a cure to depression? Tell me more!

Edited by Leuthie
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2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

An external inflaming of Passion that leads, ultimately, to a complete Void of emotion as a cure to depression? Tell me more!

Are you intentionally not listening, or do you just not see my point?

Because I'm not going to waste my time explaining my reasoning to someone whose only goal is to mock me, so make a desicion are you only here to be rude, or are you willing to have a productive conversation?

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2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Are you intentionally not listening, or do you just not see my point?

Because I'm not going to waste my time explaining my reasoning to someone whose only goal is to mock me, so make a desicion are you only here to be rude, or are you willing to have a productive conversation?

I didn't notice you were the original poster. I don't mean to pile on you, really. I hardly ever notice who is posting something, I just react to the post. We must just disagree a lot.

Yes, I understand the complexity of Odium's Intent. Maybe we disagree on its effects though. I see the results of the Intent as inflaming emotion and leaving one empty of it, as reflected by the word "void" that follows Odium around. When one is consumed by rage, when the rage retreats you aren't suddenly full of other passions. You're left empty. That is the result of Odium. But I could be wrong.

Yes, my posts were mostly in jest. The idea that someone can "cure" depression by picking up a Shard is to not understand what depression is. To say that picking up the Shard that everyone aware of Shards is afraid of and agrees shouldn't exist without he context of other Intents would help someone's depression and result in a good Vessel-Shard relationship seems pretty wrong to me.

Kaladin's red-gold eyes was to show Odium's influence, yes. Odium wanted to make Kaladin his champion, aided by Vyre's nightmares. He almost succeeded. I don't think Odium or anything else was preparing Kaladin to pick up the Shard. Kaladin's nature is about as far from Odium's as one can get. I think that's one of the points of Kaladin's characterization.

 

All of that was contained in my first 2 posts, I think.

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37 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I didn't notice you were the original poster. I don't mean to pile on you, really. I hardly ever notice who is posting something, I just react to the post. We must just disagree a lot.

It's fine

37 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Yes, I understand the complexity of Odium's Intent. Maybe we disagree on its effects though. I see the results of the Intent as inflaming emotion and leaving one empty of it, as reflected by the word "void" that follows Odium around. When one is consumed by rage, when the rage retreats you aren't suddenly full of other passions. You're left empty. That is the result of Odium. But I could be wrong.

That is a vallid interpretation, and one I would have pre RoW agreed with, now I'm begining to think it's more simmilar to the Thrill, the emotions ascociated with contest and fighting. Anger, Hate, Determination, Glory etc. You can't have that without oposition, which is why I think Odium likes questions, it is the begining of conflict.

40 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Yes, my posts were mostly in jest. The idea that someone can "cure" depression by picking up a Shard is to not understand what depression is. To say that picking up the Shard that everyone aware of Shards is afraid of and agrees shouldn't exist without he context of other Intents would help someone's depression and result in a good Vessel-Shard relationship seems pretty wrong to me.

I don't see a huge difference between it and a medical or therepudic treatment.

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin's red-gold eyes was to show Odium's influence, yes. Odium wanted to make Kaladin his champion, aided by Vyre's nightmares. He almost succeeded. I don't think Odium or anything else was preparing Kaladin to pick up the Shard. Kaladin's nature is about as far from Odium's as one can get. I think that's one of the points of Kaladin's characterization.

MB Spoilers

Spoiler

Sazed wasn't very ruinous but Ruin's attempts to destroy him gave him a strong enough connection to bond.

 

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Whether or not taking up Odium would cure Kaladin is a moot point, because Kaladin would not do so. He is, in my opinion, the most honorable person alive. He has overcome his greatest flaw, he has a family that will support him, he has set up a group that can help him manage his depression. The only possible motivation he would have to take up Odium would be in order to protect people from it. He has passion, yes, but he isn't in a position to take up Odium, and he wouldn't want to do so anyways.

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8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Whether or not taking up Odium would cure Kaladin is a moot point, because Kaladin would not do so. He is, in my opinion, the most honorable person alive. He has overcome his greatest flaw, he has a family that will support him, he has set up a group that can help him manage his depression. The only possible motivation he would have to take up Odium would be in order to protect people from it. He has passion, yes, but he isn't in a position to take up Odium, and he wouldn't want to do so anyways.

I don't know how much Taravangian wnated Odium

or MB spoilers

Spoiler

Vin wanted a shard she didn't know existed

And Protecting people is a viable path, as is giving Odium an honorable vessel if Dalinar happened to lose.

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Just now, Frustration said:

I don't know how much Taravangian wnated Odium

He wanted to kill Odium, and had a plan to do so. both of those characters were developed in such a way that it made sense. Taravangion's character was developed in a way that it made sense for him to accept Odium, to accept the responsibility to use the power to save the most people that he can, no matter how evil his actions must be.

MB spoilers:

Spoiler

Vin was being set up for Preservation from the first book, not only when she breathed in the mists, but when Kelsier comments on how powerful she is. This continues for the rest of the series.

Kaladin has had no foreshadowing for becoming Odium. In fact, his arc in RoW culminated in him denying Odium.

On a different note, if Taravangian were to die so quickly, it would feel like all of his character development and build up was wasted.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Kaladin has had no foreshadowing for becoming Odium. In fact, his arc in RoW culminated in him denying Odium.

*chough* Harmony *chough*

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

On a different note, if Taravangian were to die so quickly, it would feel like all of his character development and build up was wasted.

He could win.

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Just now, Frustration said:

*chough* Harmony *chough*

MB spoilers

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sazed was never tempted to join Ruin. 

 

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He could win.

Yeah, he could *win* the contest of champions, leaving Dalinar as an immortal servant of . . . Kaladin, and leaving the shard of Odium in the hands of . . . Kaladin. The person whose ideals are basically the opposite of Taravangian's. What a fulfilling twist.

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1 minute ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, he could *win* the contest of champions, leaving Dalinar as an immortal servant of . . . Kaladin, and leaving the shard of Odium in the hands of . . . Kaladin. The person whose ideals are basically the opposite of Taravangian's. What a fulfilling twist.

  1. Well we have a possibly 1,300 page book, not a lot to do in 10 days, could be Dalinar loses halfway through and the rest is trying to save him.
  2. Back 5 arc!
2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

MB spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sazed was never tempted to join Ruin. 

 

no, but it happened with little to no foreshadowing.

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21 minutes ago, Frustration said:
  • Well we have a possibly 1,300 page book, not a lot to do in 10 days, could be Dalinar loses halfway through and the rest is trying to save him.
  • Back 5 arc!

Maybe in the back five, but as of now, it wouldn't make sense.

22 minutes ago, Frustration said:

no, but it happened with little to no foreshadowing.

Well, it fit the story, even if you couldn't predict it would happen beforehand. Kaladin taking up Odium wouldn't make sense.

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You know, I think there is definitely something to this. 

First of all, it is incorrect to keep insisting that Kaladin is the opposite of Odium. Wasn't the whole point of RoW that Odium and Honor are not opposites? Their lights and songs can coexist in gemstone and people (ex. Venli). 

Second, in Oathbringer, there were two people that were constantly described as passion: Kaladin (by Shallan) and Odium (by himself). 

Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

In Mistborn, we were originally convinced that Ruin was the ultimate evil and needed to be fully removed. However, Preservation was allegedly the good guy, but his obsession with stability gave us the Lord Ruler and prevented scientific advancement. Eventually, the actual evil was having those two forces work separately. Once they were combined, a multitude of problems were resolved.

It seems like the Cosmere end game is to show that the Shards acting independently do not function properly and to eventually reunite them all.

I could see Kaladin taking up Odium but perhaps only if he also takes up Honor (becoming the vessel for the Rhythm of War? Is that what he is going to play on his flute?). In that way, he will become passion, kept in check by honor. Also, who better than Kaladin to command a force that has historically overpowered its vessels with overwhelming emotion? Also, there was one epigraph that said they were looking for someone (for some unknown Cosmere-level purpose) who can protect and kill. Kaladin named his biceps "Kill" and "Protect", so that's him. 

Finally, I think there is some foreshadowing to this, besides Kaladin's momentary Odium-eyes. In The Well chapter, Kaladin tells Leshwi that he would never join forces with Odium. Perhaps he will eat those words?

As an additional thought, when all the other Radiants fell in the tower, there were actually three who remained conscious: Kaladin, Lift and Venli. Lift's lifelight fuel kept her awake, and we can presume Venli was similarly protected by voidlight. But what of Kaladin? Dalinar & Co. believed that neither Dalinar, who's power is most connected to Honor, or Jasnah, who has sworn the 4th ideal, would be able to function in the tower. Even the Sibling didn't quite understand why Kaladin was awake. What if he already has some connection to voidlight that protected him?? 

On the other hand, Taravangian described Odium as being 50% planning, and I don't think that matches Kaladin too much. 

Mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Without his massive amount of knowledge, Sazed would not have been able to accomplish everything he did. This makes me feel like some level of scholarship is preferred in Shards. Not too sure that applies significantly to Kaladin. He's smart, but he's not Sazed.

For those of you who stayed to the end, what about Leshwi as the Odium/Honor Shard? She has connection to both spren, is a cunning lady, and also has some kill/protect motives. I really don't think Kaladin wants the burden of godhood in his life. He just wants to work 9-5, eat stew with friends, and sleep through the night. I also want these things for him.

Edited by Sara Stormblessed
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8 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

You know, I think there is definitely something to this. 

First of all, it is incorrect to keep insisting that Kaladin is the opposite of Odium. Wasn't the whole point of RoW that Odium and Honor are not opposites? Their lights and songs can coexist in gemstone and people (ex. Venli). 

Second, in Oathbringer, there were two people that were constantly described as passion: Kaladin (by Shallan) and Odium (by himself).

I’ve been wondering when someone would point out that Kaladin keeps getting described as passionate. There’s also his history of hating Lighteyes to draw on in shooting down arguments he’s Odium’s opposite. Yeah, Kaladin’s a terrible fit for an avatar of hatred seeking to destroy instead of protect, but he’s definitely not opposite Odium.

The question, then, is whether a passionate nature makes him someone who could be touched by Odium’s power naturally in the tower, or someone who is likely to be overwhelmed by Odium like T in the future. Current evidence leans toward the former, imo.

It definitely makes more sense for Kaladin to e stuck with a combined Honor + Odium, though I don’t see that as where we’re going. I doubt he’s getting to sleep well and live a normal life either, but Dalinar or Leshwi both seem like better fits for an Odium/Honor combo.

However, combining dual Shards again seems so much like what’s expected that I question the likelihood. What I wonder is whether we’re going to get something even more intense. If Dalinar really went overboard on being Unity, such as forging a Unity version of the Honor Shard focused more narrowly on connections and Adhesions, we could get a number of interesting possibilities. Like merging numerous Shards, better connecting worlds and Investiture systems, or binding Kaladin and Syl together more tightly than the current Nahel bond.

As long as Dalinar doesn’t take that to the next extreme and try to unify all the Shards – whether in some new gestalt or Adonalsium again – there will be plenty of space for exploring whatever role each of these people is meant to fill.

Edited by Kyn
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it's possible that the reason kaladin didn't fall during the invasion could be because he hasn't used surges in a long while. odium mentions that kaladin is even more dangerous now when he learns that he is inactive

also, wouldn't kaladin name his spear and his knife, which are both syl?

Edited by Shob the Voidbringer
i wanted to add something that i forgot
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