theory Shard Merger: Cult'O'Dium [Discuss]

[+Child of Hodor]

Tl;DR: Koravari wants to add Odium, or at least a piece of Odium to Cultivation. She's been letting Sja-Anat enlighten Truthwatcher spren to further her goal. 

1) I don't think Taravangian will last past book 5. He's already been a 5 book villain and the characters that have the biggest beef and relationship with him, Dalinar and Szeth, won't be main characters in the back half. This may be personal bias, but I don't find Taravangian a compelling villain for another 5 books. Cult'O'dium (I know ) on the other hand would be a new, unpredictable Shard to deal with and would have more resonance with Lift and Renarin given Cultivation booned Lift and Renarin's spren is a preview of what Cult'O'Dium will be. I don't know that this new combo will be pure villain, but it would fundamentally change the world state and the magic system. 

2) The magic system needs new angles to explore. While we haven't explored all surgebinding has to offer we'll have seen a lot of it, including some 5th Oaths by the end of book 5. We've seen almost no voidbinding (whatever that is). We don't know what voidbinding is other than it has something to do with what's going on with Renarin. What's going on with Renarin is a Truthwatcher radiant spren, which are more of Cultivation than of Honor, has been inejcted with some Odium investiture. If C+O happens by the end of book 5, this combination impacts the magic system in a more profound way than Sja-Anat at her current pace of enlightening 1 Truthwatcher spren per year. Speaking of ...

3) How come Sja-Anat could not change Radiant spren prior to OB, but now can change Truthwatcher spren, yet hasn't changed any other spren? Could it be because the other Shards blocked it in the past and Cultivation secretly wants it to happen now so she's allowing it in limited cases? Sja-Anat spren were instrumental in what happened with Renarin/Taravangian/Nightblood/Rayse which has Cultivation's fingerprints all over it in every other regard. Cultivation is much better at future sight than Honor (WoK Ch. 75), she would understand it and know how to mess with Odium's ability to use it by having a corrupted Truthwatcher spren like Renarin. Renarin's spren bond seems specifically targeted to mess with Odium and none of the Taravangian stuff works without Renarin. 

I doubt Sja-Anat is aware of Cultivation's influence, that would risk giving the game away to Rayse.  Why aren't the more Honor-influenced radiant spren being corrupted if the Shards used to protect them and Honor is dead? Cultivation is protecting them. Honor used to accept the words when he was alive (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14476) We see her stand in for Honor by rejecting and then accepting Venli's words. I assume she can do other things Honor used to do like protect their "children" .

4) Cultivation took a piece of Dalinar for herself in the OB flashback, saying it will be useful for her to have it. The Nightwatcher called Dalinar "Son of Odium" and we know Dalinar is strongly connected to Odium.  She has Connection to Odium through this. If that isn't enough, her lover was murdered. She's had about two thousand years to experience strong emotions like hatred over this. 

5) I'm torn on whether only Cultivation gets Odium or Dalinar and Cultivation team up and tear Odium in two and both incorporate that piece into the shard they are already holding (assuming Dalinar repairs Honor sufficiently) since they both have a strong Connection to Odium. We've seen the Power has a mind of it's own, this will be a problem for anyone trying to pick it up, Cultivation mentions the high emotion days being necessary to tempt the power. The power speaks to Taravangian saying he is perfect, the power was trying to escape Rayse all RoW. The approval of the power's mind seems important to picking Odium up as it is now, but splintering the power in two would presumably destroy that mind, making it easier to absorb a piece. Unless Taravangian controlling the power well for 10 days is enough to make that mind go away. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Child of Hodor

[coolsnow7]

To be honest this seems a lot more like trying to fit the evidence to the theory (really to the proposed Cosmeric phenomenon of Cultivation+Odium) than it does a theory emerging from text. I could offer more specific criticism but a) I need to go to sleep and b)) it would all just elaboration on that one point. 

[Lunu’anaki]

I'm more partial to CultTeravOdium if you ask me 

 

I think there is merit to the idea of diluting Odium by splintering it. I just find it hard to believe that Cultivation of all the Shards would want anything to do with Odium's power. It's the Shard that killed her lover after all.

[Vissy]

Cultivation clearly has a plan for Odium, and Cultivation is the Shard most well-suited to foresight, according to WoB. But I have no idea what that plan could be. It really depends on information we don't have access to yet, information about Cultivation's vessel herself and her personality, independence and motives.

[Travant]

4 minutes ago, Debarra said:

Vengeance for the shard name?

For like a pre planned act of hatred? Vengeance probably isn't perfect but it seems closeish to what such a shard would call itself. 

This is more or less exactly what I thought it would be named. Vengeance, because it's something that grows and... festers, you could say. An alternate is grudge, but that doesn't really sound like a shard name at all.

Alternatively, if you go the "Passion" route with Odium, you could get something like "Fury" or "Mania," which could be interesting too

[+Child of Hodor]

45 minutes ago, Travant said:

This is more or less exactly what I thought it would be named. Vengeance, because it's something that grows and... festers, you could say. An alternate is grudge, but that doesn't really sound like a shard name at all.

Alternatively, if you go the "Passion" route with Odium, you could get something like "Fury" or "Mania," which could be interesting too

1 hour ago, Debarra said:

Vengeance for the shard name?

For like a pre planned act of hatred? Vengeance probably isn't perfect but it seems closeish to what such a shard would call itself. 

I could also see meditation ad in cultivating and managing your emotions but that seems too opposing to what Odium is for this combination.

Vengeance fits, especially with this vessel and how she got it (if she ever gets it). The vessel has some influence on how the Shard is interpreted, probably more so with Shard combos.

Mistborn spoiler: 

Spoiler

Brandon has said Harmony could have had a different name like Discord if Sazed wasn't able to reconcile his Shards. https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=Harmony+Discord

I always thought Dalinar might become Justice (H+O). Odium is hatred of someone for what they've done, with Honor added the hatred would be towards those that violate laws (of men and of the natural world) and the Shard punish them in accordance with the law or their code.  Justice & Vengeance being the two shards on Roshar would be interesting. 

I know the light combo is called warlight, but that doesn't have to be the Shard name. The shard of Stormlight is not Storm. 

[KSub]

I think Sja Anat and Cultivation collaborated to weaken Odium. From Renarin we know that Odium can't see corrupted Truthwatchers.  Or is Renarin unique in that?

In either case mistspren are allowing themselves to be corrupted and they don't seem hateful the way that Ulim is, so any influence from Odium seems to be minor. Similarly, as one of the unmade Sja Anat has been corrupted but it is unclear whether her motives are with Cultivation or merely against Rayse. If it were the latter it could complicate matters given that 

Spoiler

Taravangian is now Odium.

I don't think Cultivation would want to be influenced by Odiums intent. Could she have the foresight and will to combine all three shards though? Honor would likely balance Odium enough to leave Cultivations intent mostly unchanged.

[AquaRegia]

Interesting ideas, I disagree with two specific parts:

On 1/6/2021 at 9:46 AM, Child of Hodor said:

1) I don't think Taravangian will last past book 5.

3) How come Sja-Anat could not change Radiant spren prior to OB, but now can change Truthwatcher spren, yet hasn't changed any other spren?

From a strictly "narrative" perspective, Brandon has spent 4 novels building a full backstory for Taravangian.  I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that all that will go down the drain in book 5.  Much more likely, to me, is that TOdium spends book 5 learning and growing, and heads into the back 5 as THE BIG BAD.

Sja-Anat couldn't enlighten Radiant spren during the past 4000+ years simply because there weren't any around in the Physical realm.  Once they started reappearing (only in the past 20 years, and in very small numbers), she began looking.  There are WoBs noting that she is only interested in sentient spren who are WILLING to be changed, and that, so far, Truthwatcher spren have been the only willing ones.

[Halyo_Alex]

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I know the light combo is called warlight, but that doesn't have to be the Shard name. The shard of Stormlight is not Storm.

But the SOURCE of Stormlight IS the Highstorm.

Voidlight comes from the Void that is Odium.

Towerlight comes from the Tower of Ur(ithiru)

Warlight came about because of the war between Singers and Humans.

So the shard could be Justice.

[Nightslug]

Motivation wise- I think that if Cultivation wanted to assimilate Odium, then she wouldn't have groomed Taravangian so much to take up the mantle of Odium. 

Practicality wise - I think that Cultivation is too far gone as a shard, and that Taravangian as a new Vessel, will be able to outmanoeuvre Cultivation. 

Narrative wise - I think that Taravangian as Odium makes a much more interesting villain than Koravari who we know so little about, and who we haven't followed in their journey to deity. 

--------------

About Sja-Anat, I am not so sure that she couldn't enlighten radian spren before - I think that it more a matter of no radiant spren being willing to be enlightened/corrupted. 

[Dreamwa1ker]

On 1/11/2021 at 7:52 AM, Travant said:

This is more or less exactly what I thought it would be named. Vengeance, because it's something that grows and... festers, you could say. An alternate is grudge, but that doesn't really sound like a shard name at all.

Alternatively, if you go the "Passion" route with Odium, you could get something like "Fury" or "Mania," which could be interesting too

See Vengeance is what I had pegged as the name of an Honor + Odium Shard. Partially because Kaladin is "awakened to vengeance" as Moash says when he has the yellow-red eyes when he kills Lezian. Righteous anger basically.

For Cultivation + Odium my favorite pick right now is Malignance (like cancer, something that festers and grows)

Edited January 14, 2021 by Dreamwa1ker