Bzhydack

theory
More Bondsmiths theory

23 posts in this topic

Quick and fast theory.

We know there are only 3 Bondsmiths, one for each godspren.

1. for Stormfather, related directly to Honor.

2. for Nightwatcher, related directly to Cultivation

3. for Sibling, related directly and equaly for both Shards.

But now, Odium is also part of the Rosharan Investiture Ecosystem. He is fully involved into System, Planet is fully Invested by him. He also have smoething similar to Godspren himself, but is possible we will get others with mixed Intents, similar to Sibling. So my predictions for new Bondsmiths:

4. for Ba-Ado-Mishram, related directly to Odium

5. for something related to Odium and Honor equaly, Everstorm is highly Invested, may become conscious.

6. fore something related to Odium and Cultivation equaly, Sia-Anat seems to be good candidat.

7. For something related to all 3 shards equaly. I dont see anything for this by now.

We also have Ishar, unbounded Bondsmith, with his Honorblade. So this can give us 8 Bondsmiths in total.

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Parts of this is very possible, but do bear in mind that the Sibling was a very purposeful creation of Honor and Cultivation, and wasn't really something that just followed from their investing in the planet/system. Therefore I don't think we have reason to believe that there will be a naturally occuring Honor/Odium and Cultivation/Odium bondsmith-spren. I guess it's possible, but we dont really know that it is something that is bound to happen.

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5 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

So this can give us 8 Bondsmiths in total.

or 13, if you count all the unmade as potential bondsmith spren. 12 for spren and 1 blade.

4 hours ago, Tettidesa said:

Parts of this is very possible, but do bear in mind that the Sibling was a very purposeful creation of Honor and Cultivation, and wasn't really something that just followed from their investing in the planet/system. Therefore I don't think we have reason to believe that there will be a naturally occuring Honor/Odium and Cultivation/Odium bondsmith-spren.

Unless some or all of the unmade were originally of Honor or Cultivation.

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On 1/2/2021 at 10:10 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

Unless some or all of the unmade were originally of Honor or Cultivation.

There's still no reason to assume they'd be Bondsmith spren.

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11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's still no reason to assume they'd be Bondsmith spren.

Some of the Unmade's relative connection to the physical realm (having mental capacity outside of the cognitive realm) is enough to suggest it as a possibility though.

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22 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Some of the Unmade's relative connection to the physical realm (having mental capacity outside of the cognitive realm) is enough to suggest it as a possibility though.

Brandon has said that the Unmade do not have a bondsmith equivelent

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On 1/6/2021 at 8:43 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

There's still no reason to assume they'd be Bondsmith spren.

No one is assuming anything. They're speculating.

And it seems that spren capable of Nahel bonds that result in Surgebinding are intentional creations of Honor and Ishar at the time the Oaths were introduced. The possibilities and controls might open up a bit with the death of Tanavast, but I would guess adding to the possible Bondsmith list would require direct intervention by a new Vessel for Honor, not just a change in the general Connections of Roshar.

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8 hours ago, Leuthie said:

No one is assuming anything. They're speculating.

I am in this case using "assume" to refer more to speculation than actual assumption as fact. (Hmm, what term describes this? I keep thinking "hyperbole", but I don't think this is really that.)

On 1/6/2021 at 10:05 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

Some of the Unmade's relative connection to the physical realm (having mental capacity outside of the cognitive realm) is enough to suggest it as a possibility though.

From the sound of it, Sja-anat at least requires Odium to be active on Roshar to stay "awake" in the Physical, and I would guess this applies to some of the other few remaining "intelligent" Unmade (are there even any other sapient ones, besides Sja-anat and Ba-Ado-Mishram?). And there's definitely not all 9 of them sapient in the Physical. 

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27 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

From the sound of it, Sja-anat at least requires Odium to be active on Roshar to stay "awake" in the Physical, and I would guess this applies to some of the other few remaining "intelligent" Unmade (are there even any other sapient ones, besides Sja-anat and Ba-Ado-Mishram?). And there's definitely not all 9 of them sapient in the Physical. 

I'm not completely sure but if I remember correctly, Renarin saw visions of the Everstorm which suggests she enlightened Glys in advance of Odium's arrival and is not reliant upon him. But you're right that aside from those two Unmade we haven't been given much hint of sapience

 

On 03/01/2021 at 3:10 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

or 13, if you count all the unmade as potential bondsmith spren. 12 for spren and 1 blade.

Think it's also probably worth remembering that we've seen an Unmade bond before via Yelig-Nar and it didn't create a Bondsmith. I reckon that being an Unmade doesn't preclude a spren from being able to create Bondsmiths (for e.g the attempted Unmade Sibling) and they're the most likely candidates for creating additional Bondsmiths, but it's definitely not an ability all of them have.

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1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

I'm not completely sure but if I remember correctly, Renarin saw visions of the Everstorm which suggests she enlightened Glys in advance of Odium's arrival and is not reliant upon him. But you're right that aside from those two Unmade we haven't been given much hint of sapience

From Sja-anat's interlude:

Quote

Sja-anat did not consider herself the most clever of the Unmade. Certainly she was one of the more intelligent, but that was not the same. Some of the Unmade—such as Nergaoul, sometimes called the Thrill—were practically mindless, more like emotion spren. Others—such as Ba-Ado-Mishram, who had granted forms to the singers during the False Desolation—were crafty and conniving.

Sja-anat was a little like both. During the long millennia before this Return, she’d mostly slumbered. Without her bond to Odium she had trouble thinking. The Everstorm appearing in Shadesmar—long before it had emerged into the Physical Realm—had revitalized her. Had let her begin planning again.

 

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I think that it is totally possible that Odium has spren on the same power level as the Sibling or Nighwwatcher, but a bondsmith is a surgebinder drawing power from honor and cultivation. I don't think Oduim's spren could become bondsmith spren, because they are not connected to Honor and Cultivation.

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I have alot of thoughts on thus, I've been on the same line of thought. Theres one question that has been bothering me. Can odium have a pure odium bondsmith spren. One of the main surges of a bondsmith is adhesion, which in RoW the singer's said adhesion is a false surge created by honor. It could simply be rayes didn't trust the fused enough with that surge or for some reason he can't grant it. And if he cant/refuses to grant it. Could a pure odium bondsmith be possible? Or would there have to be hybrids with honor or cultivation to create on. I personally feel that sja what will become a bondsmith spren for C&O and BAM of odium or H&O if odium can't grant adhesion.

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Adhesion is the surge of bringing things together. it is Honor's purest surge because it is the surge of oaths. Oduim and his forces cannot access it. This is why i don't think Odium could have a bondsmith.

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15 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I am in this case using "assume" to refer more to speculation than actual assumption as fact. (Hmm, what term describes this? I keep thinking "hyperbole", but I don't think this is really that.)

Assume works for this too I believe, but I suppose you could go with "hypothesizing" if you want to get really specific.

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16 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

From Sja-anat's interlude:

 

Oooh, good catch. This actually makes me wonder - is perhaps the double/triple barrel name a signifier on this? It doesn't seem coincidental that BAM is entirely conscious, the 3 mindless Unmade are all singly named, and then there's Sja-anat in the middle based on that description.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

Oooh, good catch. This actually makes me wonder - is perhaps the double/triple barrel name a signifier on this? It doesn't seem coincidental that BAM is entirely conscious, the 3 mindless Unmade are all singly named, and then there's Sja-anat in the middle based on that description.

Something perhaps interesting on this as well:

Quote

She flowed up steps in one realm, but barely moved in the other. Space was not entirely equal between the realms—it wasn’t that she had a foot in each realm; more, she was like two entities that shared a mind. In Shadesmar, she floated above the ocean of beads, her essence rippling. In the Physical Realm, she passed among singers who worked in the palace

Edited by LewsTherinTelescope
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9 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Something perhaps interesting on this as well:

so... Sja and Anat working together as a single mind.

Iiiiinteresting hypothesis, no?

Wait does that mean Ba-Ado-Mishram has one "entity" in all 3 realms? That might be why capturing Nergaoul didn't have as big of a backlash as B-A-M, he (it) only has one "entity" in 1 realm at a time. (and perhaps not even 1 whole "mind" unlike Sja-anat and B-A-M?)

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On 8.01.2021 at 9:53 PM, Truthless16 said:

Adhesion is the surge of bringing things together. it is Honor's purest surge because it is the surge of oaths. Oduim and his forces cannot access it. This is why i don't think Odium could have a bondsmith.

I disagree.

Odium probably refuses to grant Access to Adhesion, because he doesnt want to be traped and also doesnt want trap others (just kill them). But Adhesion is manipulating Connection and Connection is universal thing in Cosmere and Odium can manipulate it (Making Fused, Venlis Voidpowers).

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On 1/9/2021 at 1:40 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait does that mean Ba-Ado-Mishram has one "entity" in all 3 realms? That might be why capturing Nergaoul didn't have as big of a backlash as B-A-M, he (it) only has one "entity" in 1 realm at a time. (and perhaps not even 1 whole "mind" unlike Sja-anat and B-A-M?)

Potentially. I'm not particularly sure of the idea, but I think it's at least a possibility.

On 1/8/2021 at 2:53 PM, Truthless16 said:

Adhesion is the surge of bringing things together. it is Honor's purest surge because it is the surge of oaths. Oduim and his forces cannot access it. This is why i don't think Odium could have a bondsmith.

I personally don't think he can't grant it. I think he's scared of the potential of a Fused with power over Connection (for example, what if they find a way to use their power and break free from his hold?), and so pretends he can't, and the Fused fell for it. We've been told before that powers are not exclusive to Shards, and I can't see why Odium wouldn't be able to grant this.

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1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I personally don't think he can't grant it. I think he's scared of the potential of a Fused with power over Connection (for example, what if they find a way to use their power and break free from his hold?), and so pretends he can't, and the Fused fell for it. We've been told before that powers are not exclusive to Shards, and I can't see why Odium wouldn't be able to grant this.

Well Braize is 9-centric, as stated by Brandon, so it might be that Odium had to skip out on a surge, and chose Adhesion for those reasons.

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On 1/11/2021 at 0:09 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

Well Braize is 9-centric, as stated by Brandon, so it might be that Odium had to skip out on a surge, and chose Adhesion for those reasons.

Imo, the cause-and-effect there is the other way around. I think the reason Braize is nine-centric is because its inhabitants, the Fused, only believe in nine fundamental Surges.

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Just now, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Imo, the cause-and-effect there is the other way around. I think the reason Braize is nine-centric is because its inhabitants, the Fused, only believe in nine fundamental Surges.

Interesting... Perhaps. I can't really say I have much evidence to conclusively prove it either way.

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13 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Imo, the cause-and-effect there is the other way around. I think the reason Braize is nine-centric is because its inhabitants, the Fused, only believe in nine fundamental Surges.

I think it’s just the way the society/planet/ magic system developed. Like how Scadrial has 16, Roshar 10, supposedly the planet for Aether of Night is 12.

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