The unbearable lameness of Rayse

[Jorr]

So, seriously? How exactly is it that the man who has destroyed at least 4 other shards and whom an entity such as Hoid has spent eons to check, cross and warn about, can die in the dumbest possible way? Nightblood is clearly something that has been present on Roshar for more than an year and Szeth has spent a good time with it far from the presence of Renarin. Even if Rayse was unable to check the current whereabouts of the sword, certainly, CERTAINLY someone deemed the craftiest most dangerous individual in the Cosmere on top of his divine powers SHOULD have been able to prepare better for such a weapon or even make a play for it beforehand? Certainly having access to goddamn Terris worldhoppers for whatever reason who did his bidding in bringing the voidspren to the listeners would be a hint enough that he's pretty aware what's going on in the Cosmere or at least on Roshar AFTER the Everstorm arrived. This entire affair makes no sense and I struggle to understand how is it that this has been the epic twist Brandon has been wating to do for years. Even if Cultivation's got her game good, this still doesn't excuse Rayse's absolute ineptitude to present any real danger to any real party. He was consistently described - especially throughout this book, but also the previous one - as chaotic, insecure, borderline pathetic by regular humans whom he met. He failed time and time again not because his opponents were super brave and powerful (though they were) but ostensibly because he was overconfident, planned badly and was overall exhausted of just being. Why? What was Brandon's agenda with this characterization, juxtaposed against Hoid's crusade that basically defines the main Cosmere storyline? This is really confusing to me.

I keep contrasting Rayse to Ruin who, while confined to just one planet and supposedly the lesser evil, felt like REAL danger. He felt inescapble. He crossed Vin and the crew at EVERY move, he was omniscient, omnipresent and had crafted a BRILLIANT plan, which just happened to fail because of some even smarter shenanigans by Preservation and some last-minute greatness by Marsh. THIS was real stakes where the desperate actions of humans actually managed to throw a stick in the rails of a real stakes inevitabilty that Ruin represented. 

In comparison, ever since he showed up in person, Rayse has seemed so pathetic and obviously inept, not just to the reader but even to his OWN minions and to his supposed adversaries. Dalinar and T. both comment on how human and frail he is. Vyre and Sja-Anat while nominally singing his praise in their thoughts behave as though they are actually much craftier than he is - and they probably damn are. So how is this the being whom the entire Cosmere was afraid of? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And I keep wondering if this was on purpose, or Brandon was somehow unable to deliver his own vision. How did you feel about Rayse?

[GroundPetrel]

I suspect that Rayse was always a red herring (albeit one with an interesting take on fascism as his gimmick) and that Todium is going to be the "final boss" of the whole cosmere storyline.  I could be way off-base though.  

[Szeth-son-son-Vallano]

I was very pleased with how the Odium thing turned out. Taravangian had been built up right from the beginning as a fascinating, ruthless, utterly driven villain with understandable goals and a bizarre affliction. We saw from him everything I love to see in a complex villain: moments of triumph, unconscionable depravities, humanising affection, personal virtues, fatal flaws, moments of weakness, deep introspection. Even a genuine friendship with his heroic counterpart, whose morals and philosophy are incompatible with his own. Good rust. Great writing.

He was hamstrung only by his place in the narrative, as the expendable, second fiddle antagonist next to Rayse... who was far less interesting (the kill!destroy!death! flavour of evil god) while being infinitely more powerful. Odium's characterisation in general throughout OB was one of the low points of the series for me, as he stood out as a fairly uninspired dark lord archetype (he put me in mind of the Dark One from WoT, only with Voldemort's glib charm and sneery personality) in a cast otherwise brimming with flavour and uniqueness. I really disliked seeing Rayse divest T of all his intrigues and resources and just kick him into total subservience, as it felt like the more compelling antagonist was being sacrificed by the meta need to have a god-level character present the foremost threat to Roshar.

So, the bait and switch here -- Rayse being taken out in an abrupt, shocking way and supplanted by the dark horse villain whose journey we've all been following since book 1 -- is quite fitting to me, and bodes well for the second half of the story.

[GroundPetrel]

5 minutes ago, Szeth-son-son-Vallano said:

Even a genuine friendship with his heroic counterpart, whose morals and philosophy are incompatible with his own.

I know you probably mean Dalinar by this, but honestly...I think that this could also be T's kind-but-"stupid" self.  

[Bri-Y]

You also have to consider that Rayse/Odium long ago was much more dangerous than he is now. The Odium of long ago ripped through Shards like paper one after another. The Rayse we see in this book is a washed-up, strung-out mind barely hanging on to the power. He may have eventually killed Honor, but it cost him.

That said, Odium has always been more dangerous than Ruin in my mind, and not because of the power of Shards. I doubt very few would willingly follow a being that only wants to destroy everything. Only beings that Ruin dominated with hemalurgy were fighting for them. But there are plenty of angry people out there that would follow a diety that understands their rage and will help provide retribution.

[Lunu’anaki]

I'm fairly certain the issues you are having with this will be non-issues moving forward in the series. If you want more Rayse you are bound to get it in the back 5's herald flashbacks, if you're worried about Hoid's storyline with Rayse there is also plenty of that to be revealed in later series. This is only the end of Rayse that we are seeing. We are yet to see his beginning!

Also, Odium isn't gone. Odium is more deadly now. Odium is scarier now. Odium is smarter now.

I don't know... to me that makes for a better villain, not a worse one. 

[mathiau]

I think you're missing something important, Rayse (and possibly Odium) didn't heal of the damages he suffered each time he fought another Shard, or each time someone managed to break free of his influence. Him having beaten four shards makes him weaker, not stronger

Edited January 3, 2021 by mathiau

[Elegy]

Yeah, I think there's two different perspectives on this, and I have differing opinions on both of them.

From the story perspective, I adore what Brandon did here, setting up Taravangian as the main antagonist since book 1, with Rayse just as the typical "big bad in a tower" who doesn't have much personality. And then letting Taravangian take over. Now he has the power of Odium, but he also has the character depth that was developed by his POVs (which Rayse didn't have), his intelligence that was shown throughout the story (while Rayse pulled the strings from far away, so his cunning didn't have that much of an impact in my opinion), and his relationship with Dalinar in particular (which Rayse couldn't ever really have because as an evil deity, he was never at eye level with Dalinar). And that is just beautiful. Taravangian could only be deep, interesting and linked to the main characters because he was human instead of a deity. Now that he is a deity, he is the ideal antagonist for the story. So Rayse as a red herring antagonist worked. I'm actually happy to have him gone, because he was so bland in Oathbringer.

But from the perspective of the fandom, I kind of agree with you. WOBs always suggested that Rayse was a huge deal in the Cosmere. And we've known for a decade that he has a history of 10,000 years of destroying things. You would expect him to be more relevant. More than a red herring for a more interesting and more intelligent antagonist. So yeah, it's kinda "lame".

But I think we have to consider our special perspective in this situation. We're in the core fandom, and things look very different from here, compared to just reading the books without any WOBs and background information. Rayse has mostly been made into a huge deal through WOBs and fan hype, things like that. People thought he was the Cosmere big bad. I don't think the books ever actually set him up for that. It was years of WOBs that did that. So it might seem disappointing now (although for me, it doesn't really), but I don't think it will be a huge deal for future readers who can just fly through the books in one go, hear about Rayse in book 1 and have him die 3 books later. I think that will work very well.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Elegy

[Jorr]

I hear you, guys. I don't dispute that there are explanations for Rayse's sorry state. I am however of the opinion that Brandon didn't spend quite enough time deconstructing his myth and it feels abrupt and absurd, especially with regards to Hoid's storyline that is now cheapened substantially as apparently he spent too much time and energy fighting a non-threat. I don't dispute that T. will be interesting in the role and that this event opens funky doors for Brandon to work with the plot. It's just that all the "how can i fight a god, wait he's pretty human" thrown around came too fast. At no point were we intimidated by Rayse once he appeared in person. Again, contrast this with Ruin, whose presence was INCREDIBLY steong by comparison. Honestly, I count this as a weak point in Sanderson's storytelling. Not enough buildup for subverting the expectation and not enough rationalization for Hoid's crusade once it was subverted.

And also, plot wise, it makes NO SENSE that Rayse didnt plan around the sword for the year or so its been with Szeth (assuming Cultuvation was even able to hide its presence beforehand).

[Knight of Iron]

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

And also, plot wise, it makes NO SENSE that Rayse didnt plan around the sword for the year or so its been with Szeth (assuming Cultuvation was even able to hide its presence beforehand).

I see your point, but, I mean, his crucial mistake was greatly underestimating Taravangian, and rightly so. I'm not sure who else expected that of him.

We do also know that Rayse had to have been aware of the sword, because we have a WOB that he was very afraid of it. I think.

[Lunu’anaki]

How you feel about Rayse's arc is 100% valid. I just want to say that at the forefront of my post. I don't want you to think I'm discounting the fact that the story just didn't land in a satisfying way in your opinion.

IMO it's just not a complete story yet, because we haven't read book 5, I don't think we've seen everything there is to see for where Odium is headed or why Rayse has been portrayed this way.

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

Hoid's storyline that is now cheapened substantially as apparently he spent too much time and energy fighting a non-threat.

Really? Because it's not like he's done fighting the threat... He still thinks T is Rayse AND even if he knew Rayse was dead, he'd likely still be concerned about what the shard Odium will do to Roshar, and perhaps Cultivation or other shards?

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

 I don't dispute that T. will be interesting in the role and that this event opens funky doors for Brandon to work with the plot. It's just that all the "how can i fight a god, wait he's pretty human" thrown around came too fast. At no point were we intimidated by Rayse once he appeared in person. Again, contrast this with Ruin, whose presence was INCREDIBLY steong by comparison. Honestly, I count this as a weak point in Sanderson's storytelling. Not enough buildup for subverting the expectation

I'm not sure what you're saying exactly, because these two ideas seem to contradict one another? In your opinion was Rayse portrayed as too powerful and then toppled too easily; or was he never intimidating enough to begin with? Genuinely curious where you land on this because both seem to be a point of concern to you.

I can see how you'd interpret the existence of a week Vessel in an active Shard to be both 'portrayed as wicked powerful' and 'seeming very weak when he actually appears in a scene' but I honestly think that this is exactly Brandon's intent. It's what I like about Rayse' characterization and why I am terrified of T.odium.

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

and not enough rationalization for Hoid's crusade once it was subverted.

I agree, I really need more on how Hoid was tricked. That epigraph wasn't enough for me either.

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

And also, plot wise, it makes NO SENSE that Rayse didnt plan around the sword for the year or so its been with Szeth (assuming Cultuvation was even able to hide its presence beforehand).

It didn't matter that he was aware of Nightblood being on Roshar because Renaren blocked his vision. As far as Odium knew, the sword was in Urithiru.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Lunu’anaki

[mathiau]

40 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Really? Because it's not like he's done fighting the threat... He still thinks T is Rayse AND even if he knew Rayse was dead, he'd likely still be concerned about what the shard Odium will do to Roshar, and perhaps Cultivation or other shards?

Also, the deal he arranged between Odium and Dalinar is still valid

[Frustration]

On 1/2/2021 at 11:14 AM, Jorr said:

So, seriously? How exactly is it that the man who has destroyed at least 4 other shards and whom an entity such as Hoid has spent eons to check, cross and warn about, can die in the dumbest possible way? Nightblood is clearly something that has been present on Roshar for more than an year and Szeth has spent a good time with it far from the presence of Renarin. Even if Rayse was unable to check the current whereabouts of the sword, certainly, CERTAINLY someone deemed the craftiest most dangerous individual in the Cosmere on top of his divine powers SHOULD have been able to prepare better for such a weapon or even make a play for it beforehand? Certainly having access to goddamn Terris worldhoppers for whatever reason who did his bidding in bringing the voidspren to the listeners would be a hint enough that he's pretty aware what's going on in the Cosmere or at least on Roshar AFTER the Everstorm arrived. This entire affair makes no sense and I struggle to understand how is it that this has been the epic twist Brandon has been wating to do for years. Even if Cultivation's got her game good, this still doesn't excuse Rayse's absolute ineptitude to present any real danger to any real party. He was consistently described - especially throughout this book, but also the previous one - as chaotic, insecure, borderline pathetic by regular humans whom he met. He failed time and time again not because his opponents were super brave and powerful (though they were) but ostensibly because he was overconfident, planned badly and was overall exhausted of just being. Why? What was Brandon's agenda with this characterization, juxtaposed against Hoid's crusade that basically defines the main Cosmere storyline? This is really confusing to me.

I keep contrasting Rayse to Ruin who, while confined to just one planet and supposedly the lesser evil, felt like REAL danger. He felt inescapble. He crossed Vin and the crew at EVERY move, he was omniscient, omnipresent and had crafted a BRILLIANT plan, which just happened to fail because of some even smarter shenanigans by Preservation and some last-minute greatness by Marsh. THIS was real stakes where the desperate actions of humans actually managed to throw a stick in the rails of a real stakes inevitabilty that Ruin represented. 

In comparison, ever since he showed up in person, Rayse has seemed so pathetic and obviously inept, not just to the reader but even to his OWN minions and to his supposed adversaries. Dalinar and T. both comment on how human and frail he is. Vyre and Sja-Anat while nominally singing his praise in their thoughts behave as though they are actually much craftier than he is - and they probably damn are. So how is this the being whom the entire Cosmere was afraid of? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And I keep wondering if this was on purpose, or Brandon was somehow unable to deliver his own vision. How did you feel about Rayse?

Ruin was just as bad, none of the Shards truely struck fear in me until TOdium. With the exception of

Elantris

Spoiler

Raodin falling into the pool

That is the only thing in the entire cosmere that actually made me worry.

and even with TOdium, I'm not overly worried, it's kind of sad, I have almost no investment in the stakes because I already know the ending.

[mathiau]

Just now, Frustration said:

Ruin was just as bad, none of the Shards truely struck fear in me until TOdium. With the exception of

Elantris

  Hide contents

Raodin falling into the pool

That is the only thing in the entire cosmere that actually made me worry.

and even with TOdium, I'm not overly worried, it's kind of sad, I have almost no investment in the stakes because I already know the ending.

Spoiler

Funnily this was the only one who was not dangerous in any way, Aona was a nice girl

 

[AquaRegia]

On 1/3/2021 at 10:59 AM, Elegy said:

things look very different from here, compared to just reading the books without any WOBs and background information. Rayse has mostly been made into a huge deal through WOBs and fan hype, things like that. People thought he was the Cosmere big bad. I don't think the books ever actually set him up for that. It was years of WOBs that did that. So it might seem disappointing now (although for me, it doesn't really), but I don't think it will be a huge deal for future readers who can just fly through the books in one go, hear about Rayse in book 1 and have him die 3 books later. I think that will work very well.

I agree very much with this, and I'm one of those (up until recently, anyway) relatively casual readers.  Six Mistborn novels, Warbreaker, Elantris, check, but no "extra" content, no WoBs, no podcasts or vlogs, etc.  I didn't have ANY notions of what Rayse/Odium "should be" before now except what I've got from the pages of Stormlight novels.  I agree it was a very abrupt reversal for Rayse to suddenly be gone... but I think that might be the storytelling point.  Sometimes everything changes because of a spilt-second lucky break, and even gods can't see everything that might happen.  I have no problem with the idea that Rayse was worn down from all his millennia of war against other shards, and had gotten to the point where his personality was barely hanging on and losing control of the power.

Now, we have a relatively fresh, energetic vessel for Odium, which is way scarier.  I love how T.Odium has these deep inner conflicts: hate and destroy vs. plot and save, brilliance vs. compassion.  My hope is that having been touched by Cultivation will turn out to be an important factor in his arc going forward.

And as far as Wit/Hoid goes, I'd really like to see him finally DO something, ANYTHING!  For the "most powerful non-shard being in the Cosmere", he sure has been frustratingly absent and/or inert for four novels so far.  Same with Zahel.  I expect to be shown what these jokers have really been up to all this time.

[Wandering Investor]

I think this is Brandon showing what the cost of the shard's godlike power is. Sure, you get crazy awesome powers, but it's looking more and more like they're just not worth it. It's a drop of your personality in an ocean of force, it's going to change you eventually. Rayse is one of the most crafty, dangerous individuals in all the cosmere, and look at what it did to him. 

He is fury, he is emotion to the extreme, he is the thrill of the contest. And he's losing that contest, and has been for a long time. He's been stuck on one rock for several thousands years, and the power is not happy about that. And he was presented a deal he didn't want, but wasn't willing to wait any longer. So he's getting crushed between the fury of being stuck, and the fury of a bad deal, on top of whatever damage he's taken during his crusade, on top of spreading his attention to both the planet and large portions of the cosmere. It's not too far fetched that he missed a sword that Renarin effectively turned invisible. 

Rayse in his prime was a big deal, and extremely dangerous, but we're not dealing with Rayse in his prime, it's more of a personality struggling to just stay afloat. Very dangerous sure, but not like he was in the past, and I think Hoid miscalculated on how well Rayse has held together. Dalinar went from "I'm going to put my fist through your skull" to "logistics and supply lines are king", and I think R-Odium was going the opposite way the longer he existed, creating vulnerabilities. 

 

As for the Ruin comparison, Ruin was not scarred the same was as Odium, his power seemed much more on board with patience the whole build up a tower to knock it down, and his attention was focused almost entirely on a much smaller and less complex situation. Also, Preservation was mentally crippled/dead during their conflict, but Cultivation was still very much alive, on top of Honor's chains. 

[Serack]

5 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

I see your point, but, I mean, his crucial mistake was greatly underestimating Taravangian, and rightly so. I'm not sure who else expected that of him.

We do also know that Rayse had to have been aware of the sword, because we have a WOB that he was very afraid of it. I think.

Skipping reading the further replies to share that I already looked this WoB up and it's Hoid that the WoB is about.

Quote

Questioner

What would happen if Hoid held Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, Hoid would not do that. Hoid would stay very far away.

Stormlightning

Not even hold it??

Brandon Sanderson

He would stay really far away. There are very few things in the Cosmere that Hoid is afraid of, and Nightblood is one of them.

Stormlightning

I thought he'd be afraid of the blade end.

Brandon Sanderson

So let's just say if very, very, very few things in the Cosmere had a chance of destroying you, you wouldn't even pick one up. You'd try to be in a different room entirely.

R'Shara and Sunbird and JoyBlu

*Whispering about Nightblood being able to destroy Hoid*

Brandon Sanderson

I didn't say, I said theoretically. I said "had a chance of", I did not confirm. Hoid doesn't know. But there's a chance, and so he is not going to risk that.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

I wanted to say most of what people have already done a good job expressing about what is good about how this has been written, but the OP does have some valid points.  

[Jorr]

Thanks guys, you have raised really good objections and I have to admit my disappointment did somewhat subside. I think I can most buy @Wandering Investor's description of the situation and how it was presented on screen.

With regards to some points, raised by @Lunu’anaki:

- Hoid. I meant that in retrospect it didnt seem necessary for him to spend a zillion years trying to overmatch Rayse who didn't turn out quite a threat. Yes, Odium the Shard is a threat, but I strongly feel Hoid had a beef with Rayse in particular (I vaguely remember a personal story being the reason for this) and not the power of Odium, which he still views as a legitimate part of Adonalsium's self. Also, I beg to differ - Hoid certainly recognized that someone else had taken the shard in the epilogue. Unless you mean his erased memories, in which case - yes, but assuming this entire scene can be taken at face value at all, what with all the illusionst yada yada.

- Renarin and the sword. Yes, Renarin shrouded Szeth but Rayse definitely cant have believed the sword is in Urithiru - he can just sense it not being there after all, and he also has in invasion force holding the tower, whose first task would be finding the sword. In fact, it was specifically mentioned by some of the singers that "the assasin" (i.e. the lightweaved version) is gone, all the more supposedly warning Odium to take care. ON TOP of this, what kind of a god steps into his own crafted vision with his own real body that can be killed? That was silly too.

- My self-contradictory desription of Rayse's portrayal. Well, I don't see it that contradictory. My point was that his craftiness and underlying danger were big time hyped by other parties but ON SCREEN (i mean, page...) we always saw him as pretty pathetic.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Jorr

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

- Hoid. I meant that in retrospect it didnt seem necessary for him to spend a zillion years trying to overmatch Rayse who didn't turn out quite a threat. Yes, Odium the Shard is a threat, but I strongly feel Hoid had a beef with Rayse in particular (I vaguely remember a personal story being the reason for this) and not the power of Odium, which he still views as a legitimate part of Adonalsium's self. Also, I beg to differ - Hoid certainly recognized that someone else had taken the shard in the epilogue. Unless you mean his erased memories, in which case - yes, but assuming this entire scene can be taken at face value at all, what with all the illusionst yada yada.

I think that Hoid's problem is that he doesn't understand what it's like to hold a Shard. From Harmony's letter, we know that he gave advice to Harmony on how to control the shard better, and it didn't work very well, if at all. Hoid's flaw here is that he can't comprehend the fact that Rayse, one of the most dangerous and determined people that he knows, would be overcome by his Shard's intent. He still sees Odium as Rayse, and because of that overestimates him.

1 hour ago, Jorr said:

- Renarin and the sword. Yes, Renarin shrouded Szeth but Rayse definitely cant have believed the sword is in Urithiru - he can just sense it not being there after all, and he also has in invasion force holding the tower, whose first task would be finding the sword. In fact, it was specifically mentioned by some of the singers that "the assasin" (i.e. the lightweaved version) is gone, all the more supposedly warning Odium to take care. ON TOP of this, what kind of a god steps into his own crafted vision with his own real body that can be killed? That was silly too.

Well, he didn't step into the vision with his physical body, but simply concentrated his mind, or cognitive aspect, there. Doing so was necessary to be able to interact with the people in the vision.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

regarding nightblood, i will also note that rayse didn't have to worry about it until a year ago, he had his big plan that he thought was unbeatable, and then he had to rewrite it, but he's probably used to using his future sight for his planning, but he can't really do that now, because all the important people are near Renarin, and so he can't see their future's. and finally, when he went to mr. T, he was stressed by how bad he'd failed, and probably didn't want to think about anything, because for the second time in a year, he'd been defied by a simple mortal who was crucial to his plan. (i'm not mentioning when mr. T looked at his plans, because he didn't realize he'd been tricked)

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

regarding nightblood, i will also note that rayse didn't have to worry about it until a year ago, he had his big plan that he thought was unbeatable, and then he had to rewrite it, but he's probably used to using his future sight for his planning, but he can't really do that now, because all the important people are near Renarin, and so he can't see their future's. and finally, when he went to mr. T, he was stressed by how bad he'd failed, and probably didn't want to think about anything, because for the second time in a year, he'd been defied by a simple mortal who was crucial to his plan. (i'm not mentioning when mr. T looked at his plans, because he didn't realize he'd been tricked)

Also, remember what happened last time he tried to do something about something dangerous to him the humans didn't know they had?

[Lunu’anaki]

6 hours ago, Jorr said:

With regards to some points, raised by @Lunu’anaki:

- Hoid. I meant that in retrospect it didnt seem necessary for him to spend a zillion years trying to overmatch Rayse who didn't turn out quite a threat. Yes, Odium the Shard is a threat, but I strongly feel Hoid had a beef with Rayse in particular (I vaguely remember a personal story being the reason for this) and not the power of Odium, which he still views as a legitimate part of Adonalsium's self. Also, I beg to differ - Hoid certainly recognized that someone else had taken the shard in the epilogue. Unless you mean his erased memories, in which case - yes, but assuming this entire scene can be taken at face value at all, what with all the illusionst yada yada.

I totally get it. Hoid's story does seem to be very ambiguous now, and they were made out to be bigger rivals than we ever got payoff for.

As for the epilogue, I may have to give it a reread but I thought he left that meeting with no memory or T.Odiums attempts (but perhaps a reason for suspicion?)

6 hours ago, Jorr said:

- Renarin and the sword. Yes, Renarin shrouded Szeth but Rayse definitely cant have believed the sword is in Urithiru - he can just sense it not being there after all, and he also has in invasion force holding the tower, whose first task would be finding the sword. In fact, it was specifically mentioned by some of the singers that "the assasin" (i.e. the lightweaved version) is gone, all the more supposedly warning Odium to take care.

That's a really good point. I didn't consider that.

6 hours ago, Jorr said:

ON TOP of this, what kind of a god steps into his own crafted vision with his own real body that can be killed? That was silly too.

Maybe my cosmere-aware nerd side is overpowering me with this point, but the type of god that does this is a Shard of Adonalsium. We've seen multiple depictions of

Spoiler

the wielding of Shards in mistborn, all of which stressed the important fact that they could only focus themselves in one place at a time if they wanted to do anything substantial. A conversation is something that, as far as we are aware realmaticly, requires the focus of the Shard's Vessel. In order for Odium to speak to anyone, his Vessel HAD to be present, and therefore vulnerable.

(cosmere-wide spoilers)

 

6 hours ago, Jorr said:

My self-contradictory desription of Rayse's portrayal. Well, I don't see it that contradictory. My point was that his craftiness and underlying danger were big time hyped by other parties but ON SCREEN (i mean, page...) we always saw him as pretty pathetic.

Ahh okay, my apologies for misinterpreting that. I suppose a crafty person can still fail though... and T mentioned having access to Odiums plans so perhaps we will at least see that depicted in some way. Who knows at this point, everything but the contest of champions is up in the air.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Lunu’anaki

[Dancer]

IIRC in Secret history

 

both Keliser and Ruin had their attention spread in multiple places at once with Ruin having the majority of his focus on Vin and Sazed at the same time. Also even when Leras was in his crippled state he said that he always met the souls of the dead before they went to the beyond. This would mean that throughout the entirety of FE, WoA and HoA leras was fighting Ruin helping our hero's and consoling the dead at the same time. From this I am also finding it hard to believe that Odium would send the entirety of his conscious mind to meet with Taravangium.

   

Edited January 6, 2021 by Dancer

[Frustration]

21 hours ago, Dancer said:

IIRC in Secret history

  Reveal hidden contents

both Keliser and Ruin had their attention spread in multiple places at once with Ruin having the majority of his focus on Vin and Sazed at the same time. Also even when Leras was in his crippled state he said that he always met the souls of the dead before they went to the beyond. This would mean that throughout the entirety of FE, WoA and HoA leras was fighting Ruin helping our hero's and consoling the dead at the same time. From this I am also finding it hard to believe that Odium would send the entirety of his conscious mind to meet with Taravangium.

   

Or perhapse only one was enough and the entirety of Rayse just died there.

[Lunu’anaki]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Or perhapse only one was enough and the entirety of Rayse just died there.

True. Nightblood is a heavily-heavily invested blade.