Thelastshard

Confusing Epilogue?

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Having read the epilogue there are few things that didn't make sense at first. I have found reasoning for most but am still confused about one thing regarding the engagement between Hoid and Todium.

The problem is WHEN and HOW exactly did Todium corrupt the memory. Because the conversation was still happening when Hoid was attacked(so the memory still must be in his head).

If that's the case, Todium would have to wait till Hoid actually keeps that in the vessel there inorder to corrupt it which gives Hoid an opening and a loophole.

If that's not the case then I can't understand how he will be having the conversation and still storing the memory in those vessels.

Anything that I am missing?

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Unless I'm horribly mistaken, we know very very little about how breaths work in regard to memory.

My guess/theory is that Hoid is immediately storing what he witnesses to breaths, potentially to have a more vivid, sharp memory stored to investiture. (like a video recording rather than a vague impression of an event.)

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Hopefully there's a metal mind backup. But this could be a way to "depower" Hoid for future books. 

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Mistborn era 2 was after the first five Stormlight books? Hoid still seems to be his usual self doing his shenanigans with Wax in those books. He might have trouble in the next Stormlight book, but probably not after that.

It would be fun if the consequence of what T-Odium did caused a similar problem to Hoid as with the heralds. It might tie into finding a cure for the madness that is afflicting the heralds.

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i think that all that todium did was take some memories of minor and mostly ignored encounters with wit so that he could better understand how wit views odium. my main evidence for this is that he lost his perfect pitch, and todium mentioned that "It's all about giving you what you expect. Even a being of thousands of years can be tricked."

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On 1/2/2021 at 2:51 PM, Bri-Y said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought Mistborn era 2 was after the first five Stormlight books? Hoid still seems to be his usual self doing his shenanigans with Wax in those books. He might have trouble in the next Stormlight book, but probably not after that.

The most recent WoB I could find (using this search) basically says that internally they have a timeline, but it's not publicly known, and is subject to change.
 

(I bolded the part of the response that is most relevant to your question)

Quote

Questioner

How long after Warbreaker do these events take place?

Brandon Sanderson

We have numbers in the wiki. We haven't canonized a lot of them in the books yet. Because my original plan for the cosmere involved more space between the series than I'm probably going to eventually do. What I've said is, that basically the books that have been released have all been chronological except for White Sand, which takes place before the other books chronologically. Wax and Wayne takes place after Stormlight Five, but before Stormlight Six. And that's all I'm saying about how far apart things are right now.

One thing you have to remember is, also, time dilation is a thing in the cosmere that comes up a lot more often than it does in our world, for various reasons, because of the way I am treating Investiture. So treat that how you will.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)
 
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In the first version of the conversation, Taravangian gave away that Wit wasn't talking to Rayse. Taravangian wants everyone to believe him dead and Odium unchanged. So he removed the memory of that conversation and didn't give himself away in the second try.

That's it.

TOdium may have snooped at some other memories, but the major change he made was to redo the conversation. Wit knows Odium did something to him. There were too many clues shown in plain sight for him not to know (perfect pitch was gone, Design was supposed to be there but wasn't, there was no audience but he remembered one, his coin tricks weren't in the right places, etc.). However, he won't be certain that Rayse didn't do those things. So Taravangian's secret is still safe. Wit knew someone messed with his breaths, yet still concluded that everything went exactly as he expected.

Taravangian believes he pulled one over on Wit and discovered secret memories. Wit believes he pulled one over on Rayse by showing him something Wit wanted to show him in his memories. Everyone leaves happy. 

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10 hours ago, Leuthie said:

In the first version of the conversation, Taravangian gave away that Wit wasn't talking to Rayse. Taravangian wants everyone to believe him dead and Odium unchanged. So he removed the memory of that conversation and didn't give himself away in the second try.

That's it.

TOdium may have snooped at some other memories, but the major change he made was to redo the conversation. Wit knows Odium did something to him. There were too many clues shown in plain sight for him not to know (perfect pitch was gone, Design was supposed to be there but wasn't, there was no audience but he remembered one, his coin tricks weren't in the right places, etc.). However, he won't be certain that Rayse didn't do those things. So Taravangian's secret is still safe. Wit knew someone messed with his breaths, yet still concluded that everything went exactly as he expected.

Taravangian believes he pulled one over on Wit and discovered secret memories. Wit believes he pulled one over on Rayse by showing him something Wit wanted to show him in his memories. Everyone leaves happy. 

This is the curious bit to me. Odium becoming far more subtle and crafty (due to the new Vessel), including thinking of messing with his Breath-stored memories, clearly caught Hoid by complete surprise; but then, what did Hoid intend to happen, "exactly as planned", in his encounter with Odium? Just a little beard-pulling of Rayse, "Ha ha you can't touch me now, nyah nyah?" For someone as long-lived and Shard-aware as Hoid is, that seems quite rash. Quite a risk for a bit of gloating. But apparently so.

I don't think Hoid intended Odium to look into his Breath memories - he never imagined Rayse coming up with that idea, of working around the definition of "cannot harm you" to exclude memory editing in an external store of Investiture, or perhaps indeed even to realize that "because you've lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere".

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3 minutes ago, robardin said:

This is the curious bit to me. Odium becoming far more subtle and crafty (due to the new Vessel), including thinking of messing with his Breath-stored memories, clearly caught Hoid by complete surprise; but then, what did Hoid intend to happen, "exactly as planned", in his encounter with Odium? Just a little beard-pulling of Rayse, "Ha ha you can't touch me now, nyah nyah?" For someone as long-lived and Shard-aware as Hoid is, that seems quite rash. Quite a risk for a bit of gloating. But apparently so.

Wit might choose some of his encounters. We aren't really sure of anything about him. However, most of his appearances have been set up by his Fortune ability. He ends up going where and when he needs to go. This encounter was either an opportunity for a bit of gloating by a ten thousand year old schemer, or something set up by his Fortune ability to accomplish something that even Wit isn't really certain of until it happens.

Your assumption also necessitates the assumption that Wit would assume that Rayse just wants to show up to tell Wit that he hates him. Basically, you think that two millennia old entities who can't actually harm each other showed up in the parking lot at 3 o'clock to go "nyah nyah nana nyah" and "I hate you!". Just childish nonsense? Wit spoke of nonsense, but his self-jibes are usually misdirection.

I think: Wit showed up because his Fortune told him to and because he knew Odium would seek information from him; Odium (whether Rayse or Taravangian) showed up looking for information from Wit. 

8 minutes ago, robardin said:

I don't think Hoid intended Odium to look into his Breath memories - he never imagined Rayse coming up with that idea, of working around the definition of "cannot harm you" to exclude memory editing in an external store of Investiture, or perhaps indeed even to realize that "because you've lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere".

I don't think Wit intends much of what happens to him. I'm 100% sure he was surprised when Odium looked at his Breaths. I'm also 95% certain that the surprise and terror he felt had to do with Odium not being Rayse (and possibly not bound by something Rayse is bound by), since he had figured out that Odium was "wrong" by that time. I'm 90% certain that he knew his Breaths were messed with by Odium in the encounter afterward and was still confident that the exchange went as planned. Wit doesn't know that Odium's Vessel has changed (since Taravangian removed that knowledge), but he does know that Odium looked at and tampered with his breaths

It "worked" and "went exactly as he had imagined", all while something was wrong, his perfect pitch was off, his spren was mysteriously gone, there were obvious holes in his memory, etc. Imperfect narrator and all that, he could be misdirecting us. He could be lying in his internal monologue. However, I'm speculating that he isn't.

TOdium said he made a mistake by trying to get information from Wit by asking. Then he looked in Wit's breaths, removed the conversation, and probably got the information he was looking for: who Wit would choose as a champion if Wit were in Odium's position.

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The fact we're all saying and thinking different proves this scene was confusing, at least.

I agree nearly completely with what @Leuthie says, except for the last paragraph. I'm not sold on Todium able to read the memories he excised. My opinion is Todium would have to (harmonize?) with Endowment's investiture to read the memory, and Odium wouldn't want to do that.

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Brandon has confirmed that Odium could not READ Hoid's memories, only REMOVE them.

More recent info and conversation here:

 

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I am thinking the memory loss is due to something else.  See the below WoB from Stuttgart signing:

Questioner (paraphrased)

Now that Hoid has bonded a spren, is he locked on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that is a problem. Something will happen that is relevant. RAFO.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Could the memory loss have more to do with Hoid losing his spren and now being able to worldhop again?

 

Edited by hskeeter
spelling mistake
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