Kaladin and Kelsier parallels

[Kingsdaughter613]

7 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

In WoR, some of them absolutely tried to kill Shallan. Remember they attacked her palanquin and left the driver dead?

No, Shallan assumes it was them. She first assumes she’s being threatened. Then she finds the driver dead and the palanquin burned (which doesn’t appear to be the GBs standard MO based on the other assassinations we’ve seen them attempt).

Shallan does not witness the crime. There are no witnesses questioned. No evidence implicating the Ghostbloods is collected. The last we saw of Mraize, he was walking off in another direction. At no point afterwards do the Ghostbloods attempt to kill Shallan. And the crime doesn’t fit their MO.

So there is really no reason to think the GBs are responsible except that Shallan assumes they are. But there is no real evidence for it.

Brandon was very careful to point us at the Ghostbloods AND make sure we didn’t actually see the murder occur. There’s more than enough evidence for RL reasonable doubt, and this is a writer known for piling on very subtle foreshadowing. The whole situation feels off.

TL;DR, the more I think about that situation, the less convinced I am that the GBs did it. It just doesn’t make sense based on everything we know about them, their boss, and the overall organization.

[Sara Stormblessed]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, Shallan assumes it was them. She first assumes she’s being threatened. Then she finds the driver dead and the palanquin burned (which doesn’t appear to be the GBs standard MO based on the other assassinations we’ve seen them attempt).

Shallan does not witness the crime. There are no witnesses questioned. No evidence implicating the Ghostbloods is collected. The last we saw of Mraize, he was walking off in another direction. At no point afterwards do the Ghostbloods attempt to kill Shallan. And the crime doesn’t fit their MO.

So there is really no reason to think the GBs are responsible except that Shallan assumes they are. But there is no real evidence for it.

Brandon was very careful to point us at the Ghostbloods AND make sure we didn’t actually see the murder occur. There’s more than enough evidence for RL reasonable doubt, and this is a writer known for piling on very subtle foreshadowing. The whole situation feels off.

TL;DR, the more I think about that situation, the less convinced I am that the GBs did it. It just doesn’t make sense based on everything we know about them, their boss, and the overall organization.

I 100% believe that somebody at that meeting was responsible for the attack on the palanquin. If it was some other rando, that becomes a very convoluted coincidence and a mystery that is not even worth unraveling this many books later. However, I can see that we both want to believe that Kelsier is not as evil as Shallan believes the GBs to be. Maybe the middle ground here is that we can agree not every action done by every person in the GBs is something that was ordered by the leadership. Mraize directly tells us that their members have freedom to act independently, within certain confines. This is consistent with the Crew. And in this case, I can't wait to see a scene where Kelsier beats Mraize senseless for what he did to Lift. In fact, I can't wait to see a scene where Kelsier wipes the floor with Mraize's pompous, slimy face as a general punishment for being such an annoying blowhard toward Shallan.

You know, life would be easier if Shallan could just become the bad guy. Then it'll be fine that Kaladin killed her brother. Fine that Tyn & co tried to kill both Shallan and Jasnah. Fine that the GBs have been so stingy about giving her the password to their iCloud. Etc. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

7 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

I 100% believe that somebody at that meeting was responsible for the attack on the palanquin. If it was some other rando, that becomes a very convoluted coincidence and a mystery that is not even worth unraveling this many books later. However, I can see that we both want to believe that Kelsier is not as evil as Shallan believes the GBs to be. Maybe the middle ground here is that we can agree not every action done by every person in the GBs is something that was ordered by the leadership. Mraize directly tells us that their members have freedom to act independently, within certain confines. This is consistent with the Crew. And in this case, I can't wait to see a scene where Kelsier beats Mraize senseless for what he did to Lift. In fact, I can't wait to see a scene where Kelsier wipes the floor with Mraize's pompous, slimy face as a general punishment for being such an annoying blowhard toward Shallan.

You know, life would be easier if Shallan could just become the bad guy. Then it'll be fine that Kaladin killed her brother. Fine that Tyn & co tried to kill both Shallan and Jasnah. Fine that the GBs have been so stingy about giving her the password to their iCloud. Etc. 

I find the situation surrounding the palanquin driver fishy. The way it’s presented is clearly meant to imply a certain result, so why not have Shallan witness the crime? Why not have a third party witness it? Why is the criminal never confirmed?

Maybe it’s because I’m reading Mistborn (again) and so far the person assumed to be X has yet to be X. For literally anything. Whether it’s the nobles blaming each other for Kelsier’s actions, Rashek being mistaken for Alendi, Vin blaming Straff for Cett’s assassins, and every person who isn’t actually the Hero of Ages, the person assumed to be the obvious culprit never is. And this IS a Mistborn group, so if Mistborn rules apply the person responsible will NOT be the person we think is responsible. 

I have no issue with the GBs trying to kill Jasnah. I would like to know what was going on with Lift, and whether or not Kell knew and/or was okay with it. Because I do feel that that is one truly evil thing they’ve done. The others are no better or worse than any other character. The only good thing you can say about the GBs in that situation is that Mraize ensured Lift would survive her capture, and that she didn’t appear to be harmed.

And I wouldn’t be suspicious of Mraize seeming to have killed Gerrah (which does fit the GBs MO, though it’s odd they waited so long) except that I find it odd that TWICE now someone has witnessed what appears to be the AFTERMATH of a GB murder - but not the actual event. Once is incidence, twice is coincidence... And, as Batman says, there’s no such thing as coincidence.

(This is on my list of questions for Brandon now. Twice we’ve seen the seeming aftermath of a GB murder (once in WoR and once in RoW), but we’ve never witnessed the actual crime. Are the Ghostbloods actually responsible for either murder?)

I’m actually thinking the palanquin driver could have been killed by Liss (Chana?), who was trying to kill GB operatives on orders from Jasnah. If Liss IS Chana fire would make sense as part of her MO. 

[Honorless]

On 1/1/2021 at 6:28 AM, Zelly said:

[spoilers for Mistborn+ and Secret History]

It's been a long while since I've read Mistborn, so help me out if I say something wrong, but towards the end of Rhythm of War, Kaladin kept reminding me of Kelsier. 

Not their characters so much as how other people responded to them.

  Kaladin was always a sort of "larger than life" action hero, but this really amps up during RoW until people are making the Shash glyphs on their foreheads.  It felt a bit cult-ish to me and reminded me of Kelsier and some of the more fanatical elements of the Church of the Survivor.

I know Kaladin's not doing it on purpose (unlike Kelsier) and doesn't want something from the people (unlike Kelsier), but I DO worry that there may be a similar final set up for Kaladin in the future...

Hmm... yeah there is a parallel there but I don't think it's anything too concrete. They both became cultural icons, heroes, larger than life, more symbol than man but it's not like that's too uncommon irl.

[Harbour]

Have a gut feeling, Kaladin and Kelsier are gonna meet in the future, maybe even fight. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

Have a gut feeling, Kaladin and Kelsier are gonna meet in the future, maybe even fight. 

If Kell is Fullborn that doesn’t go well. But I doubt it. Kelsier is Shallan’s plot.

Although, I did have this crazy idea where Dalinar accidentally ends up bonding Kelsier like a Spren. Kelsier is... less than happy with this development. The Stormfather varies between irritation and amusement. Hoid thinks the whole thing is hysterical... until he realizes that now Kell is going to stick around and actually has a good excuse to be involved in Rosharan affairs.

[Frustration]

27 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If Kell is Fullborn that doesn’t go well. But I doubt it. Kelsier is Shallan’s plot.

Although, I did have this crazy idea where Dalinar accidentally ends up bonding Kelsier like a Spren. Kelsier is... less than happy with this development. The Stormfather varies between irritation and amusement. Hoid thinks the whole thing is hysterical... until he realizes that now Kell is going to stick around and actually has a good excuse to be involved in Rosharan affairs.

Hoid: Immedietly bonds Nightwatcher and seperates them before Stuffing Kel inside a rock and carrying it around.

[Kingsdaughter613]

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Hoid: Immedietly bonds Nightwatcher and seperates them before Stuffing Kel inside a rock and carrying it around.

I think Cultivation might have some words about that... Something along the lines of “Hands off my daughter, dastard!”

(No, that’s not a misspelling. Dastard is a real word.)

[Frustration]

30 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Cultivation might have some words about that... Something along the lines of “Hands off my daughter, dastard!”

(No, that’s not a misspelling. Dastard is a real word.)

Hoid would also have some words.

Words I do not feel inclined to share.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Hoid would also have some words.

Words I do not feel inclined to share.

Honestly, can you just imagine Kelsier’s reaction to being forcibly bound as a Spren?

Especially if Dalinar is like, “I don’t know what I did and I don’t know how to undo it. So until I figure it out, why don’t we resign ourselves to the situation and work together?”

[Frustration]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Honestly, can you just imagine Kelsier’s reaction to being forcibly bound as a Spren?

Especially if Dalinar is like, “I don’t know what I did and I don’t know how to undo it. So until I figure it out, why don’t we resign ourselves to the situation and work together?”

This only ends with a dead Dalinar

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

This only ends with a dead Dalinar

Let’s assume the bond prevents Kelsier from killing Dalinar. Despite his intense desire to do so. Besides, he kind of needs Dalinar alive. So there’s that too.

He just really, really wants him dead.

Dalinar: “And I thought the Stormfather was recalcitrant...”

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 1/7/2021 at 11:47 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Honestly, can you just imagine Kelsier’s reaction to being forcibly bound as a Spren?

Especially if Dalinar is like, “I don’t know what I did and I don’t know how to undo it. So until I figure it out, why don’t we resign ourselves to the situation and work together?”

You know that very common trope where two people who hate eachother are stuck together? Like literally handcuffed or whatever? This is just the magical version of that and I support it. This sounds like a hilarious fanfic if nothing else

 

Edit: actually using feruchemic and/or hemalurgic duralumin scadrians might be able to do the same thing which would allow you to explore established relationships. Hmmm

Edited January 14, 2021 by Stormtide_Leviathan

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

You know that very common trope where two people who hate eachother are stuck together? Like literally handcuffed or whatever? This is just the magical version of that and I support it. This sounds like a hilarious fanfic if nothing else

Funny thing is, I keep varying between funny and dramatic.

Like, on the one hand I imagine that Dalinar and Kelsier have to be fairly close to each other or it becomes very painful for Kell (as he’s the Spren in the bond.) And when Dalinar realizes this he’s like, “we’ll just set up a bed in my parlor.”

And Navani is like, “are you completely storming insane?! No! No way!”

And Kelsier isn’t especially thrilled either, but he also doesn’t like suffering when he’s more than twenty feet from Dalinar, so...

On the other hand, I also have things like Kelsier refusing to join Dalinar on the battlefield even if it is painful for him, because he represents too much of Scadrial to openly oppose Odium without it being a declaration of war. And Dalinar understands and respects this, even though Wit tells him that Kell could just wipe out the enemy forces (true). And this leads to them both coming to respect the other a bit more.

And that event leads to Kelsier and Dalinar talking about the bond and how it’s supposed to be symbiotic. So Dalinar wonders what Kelsier gets out of it and Kelsier tells him “an excuse.” Which completely confuses Dalinar.

Because, of course, Kelsier’s realized that by making it clear how upset he is at being forcibly bonded gives him the leeway to help the coalition directly while seeming not to... so he’s actually much more okay with things than he’s letting on.

And then I have a scene where Navani gets so fed up with Hoid and Kell sniping at one another during a war meeting that she throws them both out. And then demands to know why the immortals are the most childish ones. Oh, and Kelsier actually kind-of behaves around her after that because he thinks she’s awesome for doing that (and is semi in love with her from that point on.)

And then I have a scene where Navani goes to where the old Radiant statues are to burn a glyph for Elhokar. And Kelsier is there and he’s crying - which she’s never actually seen him do.  It turns out that it’s the anniversary of Vin’s death, which he almost missed because of the different calendars, and he’s just realized that this is the first time he can’t visit her grave because he’s as stuck on Roshar as he was on Scadrial. So Navani ends up bonding (in the non-nahel sense) with her husband’s not-exactly a Spren over their dead children.

I guess this is a Tragicomedy?

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Funny thing is, I keep varying between funny and dramatic.

Like, on the one hand I imagine that Dalinar and Kelsier have to be fairly close to each other or it becomes very painful for Kell (as he’s the Spren in the bond.) And when Dalinar realizes this he’s like, “we’ll just set up a bed in my parlor.”

And Navani is like, “are you completely storming insane?! No! No way!”

And Kelsier isn’t especially thrilled either, but he also doesn’t like suffering when he’s more than twenty feet from Dalinar, so...

On the other hand, I also have things like Kelsier refusing to join Dalinar on the battlefield even if it is painful for him, because he represents too much of Scadrial to openly oppose Odium without it being a declaration of war. And Dalinar understands and respects this, even though Wit tells him that Kell could just wipe out the enemy forces (true). And this leads to them both coming to respect the other a bit more.

And that event leads to Kelsier and Dalinar talking about the bond and how it’s supposed to be symbiotic. So Dalinar wonders what Kelsier gets out of it and Kelsier tells him “an excuse.” Which completely confuses Dalinar.

Because, of course, Kelsier’s realized that by making it clear how upset he is at being forcibly bonded gives him the leeway to help the coalition directly while seeming not to... so he’s actually much more okay with things than he’s letting on.

And then I have a scene where Navani gets so fed up with Hoid and Kell sniping at one another during a war meeting that she throws them both out. And then demands to know why the immortals are the most childish ones. Oh, and Kelsier actually kind-of behaves around her after that because he thinks she’s awesome for doing that (and is semi in love with her from that point on.)

And then I have a scene where Navani goes to where the old Radiant statues are to burn a glyph for Elhokar. And Kelsier is there and he’s crying - which she’s never actually seen him do.  It turns out that it’s the anniversary of Vin’s death, which he almost missed because of the different calendars, and he’s just realized that this is the first time he can’t visit her grave because he’s as stuck on Roshar as he was on Scadrial. So Navani ends up bonding (in the non-nahel sense) with her husband’s not-exactly a Spren over their dead children.

I guess this is a Tragicomedy?

yesss.... YESSSSS

[Vissy]

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Funny thing is, I keep varying between funny and dramatic.

Like, on the one hand I imagine that Dalinar and Kelsier have to be fairly close to each other or it becomes very painful for Kell (as he’s the Spren in the bond.) And when Dalinar realizes this he’s like, “we’ll just set up a bed in my parlor.”

And Navani is like, “are you completely storming insane?! No! No way!”

And Kelsier isn’t especially thrilled either, but he also doesn’t like suffering when he’s more than twenty feet from Dalinar, so...

On the other hand, I also have things like Kelsier refusing to join Dalinar on the battlefield even if it is painful for him, because he represents too much of Scadrial to openly oppose Odium without it being a declaration of war. And Dalinar understands and respects this, even though Wit tells him that Kell could just wipe out the enemy forces (true). And this leads to them both coming to respect the other a bit more.

And that event leads to Kelsier and Dalinar talking about the bond and how it’s supposed to be symbiotic. So Dalinar wonders what Kelsier gets out of it and Kelsier tells him “an excuse.” Which completely confuses Dalinar.

Because, of course, Kelsier’s realized that by making it clear how upset he is at being forcibly bonded gives him the leeway to help the coalition directly while seeming not to... so he’s actually much more okay with things than he’s letting on.

And then I have a scene where Navani gets so fed up with Hoid and Kell sniping at one another during a war meeting that she throws them both out. And then demands to know why the immortals are the most childish ones. Oh, and Kelsier actually kind-of behaves around her after that because he thinks she’s awesome for doing that (and is semi in love with her from that point on.)

And then I have a scene where Navani goes to where the old Radiant statues are to burn a glyph for Elhokar. And Kelsier is there and he’s crying - which she’s never actually seen him do.  It turns out that it’s the anniversary of Vin’s death, which he almost missed because of the different calendars, and he’s just realized that this is the first time he can’t visit her grave because he’s as stuck on Roshar as he was on Scadrial. So Navani ends up bonding (in the non-nahel sense) with her husband’s not-exactly a Spren over their dead children.

I guess this is a Tragicomedy?

Please write it 

[Valigus]

On 12/31/2020 at 7:58 PM, Zelly said:

[spoilers for Mistborn+ and Secret History]

It's been a long while since I've read Mistborn, so help me out if I say something wrong, but towards the end of Rhythm of War, Kaladin kept reminding me of Kelsier. 

Not their characters so much as how other people responded to them.

  Kaladin was always a sort of "larger than life" action hero, but this really amps up during RoW until people are making the Shash glyphs on their foreheads.  It felt a bit cult-ish to me and reminded me of Kelsier and some of the more fanatical elements of the Church of the Survivor.

I know Kaladin's not doing it on purpose (unlike Kelsier) and doesn't want something from the people (unlike Kelsier), but I DO worry that there may be a similar final set up for Kaladin in the future...

So I’ve heard people list a lot of similarities between Judaism and vorinism and compare kaladin to a Christ like character from the perspective of others particularly bridge 4, he even has a dying on the cross and coming back style moment. This theory to me has always seemed a little too easy and like what happened with kelsier but then I thought of something, child of tanavast, that significant may not be what we are thinking of it may not be that he is more invested or as some weird peer or becomes honor maybe it’s just a symbol of him being a Christ figure for some on roshar?(remember additionally even the fused and singers call him stormblessed and know who he is)

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Valigus said:

So I’ve heard people list a lot of similarities between Judaism and vorinism and compare kaladin to a Christ like character from the perspective of others particularly bridge 4, he even has a dying on the cross and coming back style moment. This theory to me has always seemed a little too easy and like what happened with kelsier but then I thought of something, child of tanavast, that significant may not be what we are thinking of it may not be that he is more invested or as some weird peer or becomes honor maybe it’s just a symbol of him being a Christ figure for some on roshar?(remember additionally even the fused and singers call him stormblessed and know who he is)

I do not see a resemblance between Judaism and Vorinism. There are far more similarities to the Terris, especially in Era 2. Nationality and scholarship and communal life are huge parts of Judaism and those aren’t reflected at all in Vorinism.

[Bejarden]

What’s the resemblance 

the only one is monotheistic which most have

Edited February 15, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[Valigus]

47 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I do not see a resemblance between Judaism and Vorinism. There are far more similarities to the Terris, especially in Era 2. Nationality and scholarship and communal life are huge parts of Judaism and those aren’t reflected at all in Vorinism.

I don’t remember I just remember reading a thread a loooooong time ago that was soemthing to that affect.