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Kaladin and Kelsier parallels


Zelly

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[spoilers for Mistborn+ and Secret History]

It's been a long while since I've read Mistborn, so help me out if I say something wrong, but towards the end of Rhythm of War, Kaladin kept reminding me of Kelsier. 

Not their characters so much as how other people responded to them.

  Kaladin was always a sort of "larger than life" action hero, but this really amps up during RoW until people are making the Shash glyphs on their foreheads.  It felt a bit cult-ish to me and reminded me of Kelsier and some of the more fanatical elements of the Church of the Survivor.

I know Kaladin's not doing it on purpose (unlike Kelsier) and doesn't want something from the people (unlike Kelsier), but I DO worry that there may be a similar final set up for Kaladin in the future...

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37 minutes ago, Zelly said:

[spoilers for Mistborn?]

It's been a long while since I've read Mistborn, so help me out if I say something wrong, but towards the end of Rhythm of War, Kaladin kept reminding me of Kelsier. 

Not their characters so much as how other people responded to them.

  Kaladin was always a sort of "larger than life" action hero, but this really amps up during RoW until people are making the Shash glyphs on their foreheads.  It felt a bit cult-ish to me and reminded me of Kelsier and some of the more fanatical elements of the Church of the Survivor.

I know Kaladin's not doing it on purpose (unlike Kelsier) and doesn't want something from the people (unlike Kelsier), but I DO worry that there may be a similar final set up for Kaladin in the future...

Which part? Dying, becoming a ghost, or returning to life as an inter-Cosmere crime lord?

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1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Which part? Dying, becoming a ghost, or returning to life as an inter-Cosmere crime lord?

Yes. :lol:

No, mainly just the dying and being set up as a symbol and possibly creating a religion.

Well, actually, Kal is just about as stubborn as Kelsier.  I could see him refusing to pass into the Beyond also, stating that there were people who needed him.

So dying, becoming a ghost, and returning to life as a caped vigilante? 

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21 minutes ago, Zelly said:

Yes. :lol:

No, mainly just the dying and being set up as a symbol and possibly creating a religion.

Well, actually, Kal is just about as stubborn as Kelsier.  I could see him refusing to pass into the Beyond also, stating that there were people who needed him.

So dying, becoming a ghost, and returning to life as a caped vigilante? 

I’m Kaladin. (In dark, grim tones.)

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4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Which part? Dying, becoming a ghost, or returning to life as an inter-Cosmere crime lord?

So I have read all of Mistborn and Stormlight but not the standalone books (yet). Which one do I need to read to understand this last part? Is Kelsier in one of the other books, Elantris or Warbreaker?

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1 minute ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

So I have read all of Mistborn and Stormlight but not the standalone books (yet). Which one do I need to read to understand this?

Huh? Kelsier dies, becomes a ghost, and then somehow ends up in charge of the mafia - I mean the Ghostbloods.

So you shouldn’t need anything but Mistborn and Stormlight.

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18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Huh? Kelsier dies, becomes a ghost, and then somehow ends up in charge of the mafia - I mean the Ghostbloods.

I hope you are being facetious and did not just spoil one of the books for me. I really will cry.

 

18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So you shouldn’t need anything but Mistborn and Stormlight.

None of these books has Kelsier actually coming back to life...?

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43 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So you shouldn’t need anything but Mistborn and Stormlight.

Mistborn: Secret History is not part of the main Mistborn series. It's a short story in Arcanum: Unbounded (One which I highly recommend to anyone confused by this post)

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1 hour ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

I hope you are being facetious and did not just spoil one of the books for me. I really will cry.

 

None of these books has Kelsier actually coming back to life...?

Bands of Mourning...? You did say you read all of Mistborn. Generally speaking that includes Era 1, SH and Era 2. If you haven’t read all of the above you should tell us, so we know not to tell you.

But if you don’t want to know more, stay away from any discussions involving Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods. Also any discussions involving Shards, Cognitive Shadows, Elantrians, and...

You know what? You might be better off avoiding the boards entirely until you’re caught up.

Also, Warbreaker will probably be spoiled for you if you stay in this area.

@Lunu'anaki

Spoiler

Bands of Mourning IS a mainline Mistborn story (I disagree about SH, but fine). Kelsier’s return is revealed in Bands, so why would I assume she didn’t know? She said she read all of Mistborn, which includes Era 2.

Besides, 10% of these threads are directly about Kelsier being Thaidakar, while at least half of the general discussions bring him up because he’s related to the topic.

I want to know how she managed to miss this until now.

 

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48 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Bands of Mourning...? You did say you read all of Mistborn.

I did read all six Mistborn books, but I was never truly convinced that actual Kelsier lived again in the physical world. He gave his body to the kandra, so how could we ever know if it was really him or one of them?? ;)
 

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Mistborn: Secret History is not part of the main Mistborn series. It's a short story in Arcanum: Unbounded (One which I highly recommend to anyone confused by this post)

Thank you. I found out about this novella just now and will be reading it this weekend. I didn't know Arcanum: Unbounded was a collection of novellas until now. From the title, I had assumed it was similar to the Ars Arcanum at the end of each book. 

Anyway, you can all return to your Kaladin/Kelsier discussion. I am clearly out of my depth. I did not read Mistborn looking for Cosmere easter eggs, so I guess I'll need to start over and keep my eyes peeled. 

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7 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

I did read all six Mistborn books, but I was never truly convinced that actual Kelsier lived again in the physical world. He gave his body to the kandra, so how could we ever know if it was really him or one of them?? ;)
 

Thank you. I found out about this novella just now and will be reading it this weekend. I didn't know Arcanum: Unbounded was a collection of novellas until now. From the title, I had assumed it was similar to the Ars Arcanum at the end of each book. 

Anyway, you can all return to your Kaladin/Kelsier discussion. I am clearly out of my depth. I did not read Mistborn looking for Cosmere easter eggs, so I guess I'll need to start over and keep my eyes peeled. 

Yeah, so... That was Kell at the ends of BoM. He’s the Sovereign. So that’s not a spoiler (as you read the pertinent material) but a clarification.

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23 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Yeah, so... That was Kell at the ends of BoM. He’s the Sovereign. So that’s not a spoiler (as you read the pertinent material) but a clarification.

I dunno. Still not convinced B) We'll see after I go on this secret novella, secret history adventure. 


@Zelly I am sorry for highjacking your thread. For what it's worth, I see your point. There were definitely some parallels earlier in Kaladin's story, especially with their strong anti-light eyes/anit-nobles attitudes. However, now there are so many larger than life names in Stormlight, whereas Kelsier was really a singularity, with the exception of our Lord Mistborn, Spook, who eventually echoed Kelsier in a few ways. Perhaps Kelsier is like a Kaladin/Moash love child. Anyway, I think this would be an interesting juxtaposition for these two characters who started out so similar: Kelsier, who made himself out to be a god in life, grows into just-another-evil-mastermind-in-a-cosmere-full-of-plotting-evil-blokes vs. Kaladin, who is humble to the literal point of death, grows into maybe ascending to actual godhood, as Honor. Not that I subscribe to that theory, but it would be an interesting contrast between these two.

Note: This part "just-another-evil-mastermind-in-a-cosmere-full-of-plotting-evil-blokes" is based completely on what I have learned in this thread. I am still wrapping my brain around the fact that the Kelsier I had loved turns into the guy who has made my blood run cold for so long, with his massively evil ways.  

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8 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

I dunno. Still not convinced B) We'll see after I go on this secret novella, secret history adventure. 


@Zelly I am sorry for highjacking your thread. For what it's worth, I see your point. There were definitely some parallels earlier in Kaladin's story, especially with their strong anti-light eyes/anit-nobles attitudes. However, now there are so many larger than life names in Stormlight, whereas Kelsier was really a singularity, with the exception of our Lord Mistborn, Spook, who eventually echoed Kelsier in a few ways. Perhaps Kelsier is like a Kaladin/Moash love child. Anyway, I think this would be an interesting juxtaposition for these two characters who started out so similar: Kelsier, who made himself out to be a god in life, grows into just-another-evil-mastermind-in-a-cosmere-full-of-plotting-evil-blokes vs. Kaladin, who is humble to the literal point of death, grows into maybe ascending to actual godhood, as Honor. Not that I subscribe to that theory, but it would be an interesting contrast between these two.

Note: This part "just-another-evil-mastermind-in-a-cosmere-full-of-plotting-evil-blokes" is based completely on what I have learned in this thread. I am still wrapping my brain around the fact that the Kelsier I had loved turns into the guy who has made my blood run cold for so long, with his massively evil ways.  

Thaidakar terrifies you that much? Why is that? What has he done that you feel is so evil? We haven’t even seen him onscreen in Stormlight. (Nice answer there Brandon. Exact words. ‘We are unlikely to see Kelsier in Stormlight.’)

The Ghostbloods always felt like the crew to me, which tipped me off back in WoR. This was an aluminum hat theory for a lot of us for a long time. I’m still reeling from actually being RIGHT, lol.

And I find the idea of Kelsier as the Godfather (Vito, NOT Michael) of the Cosmere very fitting. It’s exactly the sort of thing he WOULD do. He’s a conartist and a thief. Of COURSE he’s doing this.

Saze is choosing not intervene though, so I doubt he’s gone quite as far off the deep end as you think. Kell wouldn’t be okay with doing the kind of things Taravangian does, for example. (WoB)

And, as was briefly noted in Bands, Kelsier Ascended to godhood for a bit, which some of us have known since HoA. I recommend reading the Mistborn annotations when you get the chance; they’re quite interesting.

We do have a WoB on Kelsier being the Sovereign, btw. So that’s not really debatable. Kell’s return is important for Scadrial and he’ll be a major character in Era 3. But first we’ll need The Lost Metal... (nownownownownowNOW!)

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6 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

I dunno. Still not convinced B) We'll see after I go on this secret novella, secret history adventure. 

I'd be convinced. Brandon never meant for it to be confusing (emphasis added).

Quote

Questioner

At the end of the last Wax and Wayne book, which I love, that statue that they though was the Lord Ruler. It was Kelsier.

Brandon Sanderson

That was Kelsier.

Questioner

Ok. I thought so, because the way the other thing ended with the eye, the eye thing was throwing me off and then I went and grabbed the secret thing and I was like "No that can't..."

Brandon Sanderson

That is Kelsier.

Questioner

And will we find out more in the next Wax and Wayne book or do we need to wait and find out more later?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out more in the Wax and Wayne book, really that that's going on there is foreshadowing for era 3, and for future Secret History stories if I do them. So the Wax and Wayne books are not about the return of Kelsier, but the return of Kelsier is very important for later things in the series.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

 

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Although i do see some similarities just like you say in the following and adoration of them both from "the people". Two things set them apart quite clearly imo.

Kelsier kills too easily. And i think he carries an inherrent showmanship and selfishness within him that doesn't at all resonate with Kal.

Kal's first "freeze" back as a kid in Amaram's army when he realized how easily he would be ok with killing people, kind of reminded me of Kelsier. But I feel like Kal actively knows and fears that side of himself and therefore doesn't at all allow himself to just be "brutal" in the same way Kelsier is. Thus solidifying their difference. But! When Kal is pushed by trauma (similar to the trauma of Kelsier losing his wife) by losing Teft at the end of RoW, we do see him go into Kelsier-murder-gear and rip that annoying fused apart in a bruuuutal and very Kelsierish way. 

So with all this, I feel like the two characters have some similarities, but again, Kelsier is instinctively a performer, showman, slightly selfish and brutal man. Kal has the potential to become a figurehead similarely, but not due to any showmanship, and although he might have the same brutality inside, he fears it, rather then let it rule.

I see their personalities as fundamentally different and think that because of that, regardless if Kal ends up being a figurehead similar in status to "the survivor", their impact would differ and the storylines would as well! 

It is suuuper interesting to explore the similarities/differences between the protagonists of Sanderson's different works! Nice topic!

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13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

@Lunu'anaki

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Bands of Mourning IS a mainline Mistborn story (I disagree about SH, but fine). Kelsier’s return is revealed in Bands, so why would I assume she didn’t know? She said she read all of Mistborn, which includes Era 2.

Besides, 10% of these threads are directly about Kelsier being Thaidakar, while at least half of the general discussions bring him up because he’s related to the topic.

I want to know how she managed to miss this until now.

 

Oh I totally understand. I'm not trying to say you did anything wrong. Mentioning Secret History is mostly for the benefit of anyone who's having trouble following the Thaidakar-Kel connection!!

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On 1/1/2021 at 6:28 AM, Zelly said:

Kaladin was always a sort of "larger than life" action hero, but this really amps up during RoW until people are making the Shash glyphs on their foreheads.  It felt a bit cult-ish to me and reminded me of Kelsier and some of the more fanatical elements of the Church of the Survivor.

 

I never thought of this way! 

On 1/1/2021 at 7:11 AM, Zelly said:

Well, actually, Kal is just about as stubborn as Kelsier.  I could see him refusing to pass into the Beyond also, stating that there were people who needed him.

 

lolz yup that is possible except that he may chose to go to the beyond too seeing as he has committed suicide too! We just won’t know until that happens! 
 

22 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Ok here’s my hot take: kal is if you mixed kelsier with elend and slapped an honorspren to it.

Oh my! Good one!

but really though, I agree now that it has been brought to my notice that there are similarities. There is a cult worship happening of Kaladin ( totally unintentional on his part), it may be also be the start of a religion but not of “survivor kal” but shard of Honor Kaladin.

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@Kingsdaughter613 Mmkay, so I read Secret History today. Unless there is another Mistborn novella with more information on this topic, I guess Kelsier = Thaidakar doesn't technically count as a spoiler because that information isn't explicitly unveiled in any of the books so far. If I had read SH before RoW, I may well have worked this out. However, reading them in reverse order, without looking for clues, it is possible that I might never have pieced this together. This is because my impression of Kelsier and his crew does not at all match with my impression of the Ghostbloods. 

 

17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thaidakar terrifies you that much? Why is that? What has he done that you feel is so evil?

In Mistborn, Kelsier and his crew have a strong Robin Hood and his band of honorable thieves vibe. Meanwhile, the Ghostbloods have repeatedly threatened the lives of multiple Stormlight protagonists and their families. Mraize literally attacked and caged a child--a child who is reminiscent of Vin in many ways--and then handed her over to Odium! These reputable sources agree that the Ghostbloods are dangerous, murderous, bad news bears: Shallan, Wit, Jasnah. Meanwhile, these garbage bags appear to have been working with the Ghostbloods: Lin Davar & co., Gavilar Kholin. 

 

19 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Besides, 10% of these threads are directly about Kelsier being Thaidakar, while at least half of the general discussions bring him up because he’s related to the topic.

I want to know how she managed to miss this until now.

I have only been here since Monday, and I have been staying in the RoW sections, intentionally not clicking on threads with titles that implied multi-layer cosmere knowledge. I haven't clicked on anything with Thidakar in the title because the way he is discussed in RoW made me suspect that he is in storylines I haven't read yet. I pretty much ignore anything related to "world-hopping" because I haven't explicitly seen that discussed in the text so far, only implied through Wit, Zahel and Azure. I figured that this thread was safe because, to my knowledge, I had read everything containing Kaladin and Kelsier. 

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1 hour ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

Meanwhile, the Ghostbloods have repeatedly threatened the lives of multiple Stormlight protagonists and their families. Mraize literally attacked and caged a child--a child who is reminiscent of Vin in many ways--and then handed her over to Odium! These reputable sources agree that the Ghostbloods are dangerous, murderous, bad news bears: Shallan, Wit, Jasnah. Meanwhile, these garbage bags appear to have been working with the Ghostbloods: Lin Davar & co., Gavilar Kholin.

While this is all true, IMO you also have many reasons to fear Kelsier, especially know that you know some of the details revealed in Secret History. While Kelsier was a protagonist of Mistborn, he was inherintly a bad person. For example, he would go off and kill a bunch of haze killers then say something alone the lines of 'look at all the good work I've done.'

Even though Kelsier is relatively young in comparison to the Cosmere, he may be somewhat warped by his Intent knowing that he has been living for about 300 years. This means that he might be willing to take even more extreme actions towards Survival then the Kelsier we knew in Mistborn. 

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On 1/1/2021 at 7:11 AM, Zelly said:

Yes. :lol:

No, mainly just the dying and being set up as a symbol and possibly creating a religion.

Well, actually, Kal is just about as stubborn as Kelsier.  I could see him refusing to pass into the Beyond also, stating that there were people who needed him.

So dying, becoming a ghost, and returning to life as a caped vigilante? 

Huh I could totally see him doing that 

Wait nooo he doesn't have that selfishness. Like as vin pointed out kel stayed back mostly cause he was selfish and wanted more from life and maybe was afraid of the beyond. He didn't even think of meeting Mare again. 

Kal on the other hand .....I think kal would gladly take the chance to maybe see tien , tukks, teft , maps , dunny, etc again. 

Idk man , kal doesn't seem the like to come back from death. Also seriously Sanderson needs to stop doing that for a few books atleast. 

As for the cult , not really. Like I don't see much similarity. 

Kelsiers cult was one of pure desperation and extinction of hope. Among a population who had no religion for a 1022 yrs and many of whom were ignorant of the very existence of Mistborn . They literally thought he was God . They based an entire religion around him. Thet made him into a war jesus. 

Kal on the other hand is a hero. The ppl have a variety of religions most popular ones being vorinism and it's new sects with the Godspren, heralds, God beyond , The almighty, the Shards of dead Honor and  Cultivation alive ( pun intended ). 

They know and try and have even succeeded in becoming the Knights Radiant. 

They think of kal not as a God but a hero who inspired them during a mostly benign short-lived occupation , very much unlike the 1000 yr brutal theocratic rule of tlr. 

The only similarity I see between them is that they are both heros who stood up against oppression. 

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20 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

@Kingsdaughter613 Mmkay, so I read Secret History today. Unless there is another Mistborn novella with more information on this topic, I guess Kelsier = Thaidakar doesn't technically count as a spoiler because that information isn't explicitly unveiled in any of the books so far. If I had read SH before RoW, I may well have worked this out. However, reading them in reverse order, without looking for clues, it is possible that I might never have pieced this together. This is because my impression of Kelsier and his crew does not at all match with my impression of the Ghostbloods. 

 

In Mistborn, Kelsier and his crew have a strong Robin Hood and his band of honorable thieves vibe. Meanwhile, the Ghostbloods have repeatedly threatened the lives of multiple Stormlight protagonists and their families. Mraize literally attacked and caged a child--a child who is reminiscent of Vin in many ways--and then handed her over to Odium! These reputable sources agree that the Ghostbloods are dangerous, murderous, bad news bears: Shallan, Wit, Jasnah. Meanwhile, these garbage bags appear to have been working with the Ghostbloods: Lin Davar & co., Gavilar Kholin. 

 

I have only been here since Monday, and I have been staying in the RoW sections, intentionally not clicking on threads with titles that implied multi-layer cosmere knowledge. I haven't clicked on anything with Thidakar in the title because the way he is discussed in RoW made me suspect that he is in storylines I haven't read yet. I pretty much ignore anything related to "world-hopping" because I haven't explicitly seen that discussed in the text so far, only implied through Wit, Zahel and Azure. I figured that this thread was safe because, to my knowledge, I had read everything containing Kaladin and Kelsier. 

Kell and his crew never read as Robin Hood to me. Honestly, Kelsier reminds me most strongly of Silk (Belgariad) and David Xanatos (Gargoyles). And the crew was after there own gain to start with; that changed with Kelsier’s leadership.

Honestly, if we take the OG Mistborn crew: Dox, Ham, and Breeze are joining the Ghostbloods (two of the above may have been original members). Vin probably would have joined, at least as she was back in TFE. Spook almost certainly helped start the new crew. Marsh, Clubs and Saze are the only three we can really argue wouldn’t have joined as they were in TFE; Vin at the end wouldn’t have joined, but probably would be willing to work with Kelsier, if only to hold him back.

Everyone else still joins. There’s a pretty high probability that Spook, Breeze, and Ham were part of the original Ghostbloods under Kelsier. The name probably comes from when they were trying to figure out how to bring him back to life.

Gavilar was a member of the SoH, an enemy of the GBs. The GBs primary targets have been members of the SoH who, by and large, have been pretty despicable individuals. (Amaram, Ialai, etc.) And Lin Davar was being influenced by an unmade, so that makes him tricky to judge. (Gavilar may have been too, btw.)

The GBs haven’t overtly threatened any protagonists family; Shallan has read certain things as threatening, but that doesn’t mean her interpretation is correct. They haven’t actually done anything we’ve seen to warrant that accusation. They didn’t threaten Shallan until she betrayed them, and they only tried assassinating Jasnah after she killed several of their number. Like the original crew, they are very loyal to one another.

And I’m not judging an entire group by the actions of one person, especially when we know their boss is A: pretty hands off to start and B: stuck on another planet. On the other hand, Restares directly ordered Kaladin’s execution, but we’re supposed to like him. At least Mraize ensured Lift would be (relatively) safe by making her a unique and valuable commodity.

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4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The GBs haven’t overtly threatened any protagonists family; Shallan has read certain things as threatening, but that doesn’t mean her interpretation is correct. They haven’t actually done anything we’ve seen to warrant that accusation. They didn’t threaten Shallan until she betrayed them, and they only tried assassinating Jasnah after she killed several of their number. Like the original crew, they are very loyal to one another.

And I’m not judging an entire group by the actions of one person, especially when we know their boss is A: pretty hands off to start and B: stuck on another planet. On the other hand, Restares directly ordered Kaladin’s execution, but we’re supposed to like him. At least Mraize ensured Lift would be (relatively) safe by making her a unique and valuable commodity.

Damn, when you put it that way it actually gives me hope that they are on the side of the Radiants!

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20 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Damn, when you put it that way it actually gives me hope that they are on the side of the Radiants!

Oh, that’s a given. Mraize says as much early in RoW. They don’t want Odium winning and they were happy Dalinar could use Urithiru to fight the war. They’ve also consistently targeted the SoH, a group we know was involved in trying to return the Desolations.

That said, they aren’t going to be open about it. It’s not their primary goal - and even if it is, that isn’t how they work. They’re spies and saboteurs and assassins. It’s much easier to do those kind of things if your enemy thinks you’re a neutral third party.

They’re playing both sides, and are allowing both sides to know, but they are more aligned with the Radiants. Kelsier has no reason to want Odium free to assault Scadrial.

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6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The GBs haven’t overtly threatened any protagonists family; Shallan has read certain things as threatening, but that doesn’t mean her interpretation is correct. They haven’t actually done anything we’ve seen to warrant that accusation. They didn’t threaten Shallan until she betrayed them, and they only tried assassinating Jasnah after she killed several of their number.

In WoR, some of them absolutely tried to kill Shallan. Remember they attacked her palanquin and left the driver dead?

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