Theory: Syl and Cultivation

[mathiau]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Jezrien's place?

There is a lot of foreshadowing with Kal, but it's mostly ties to Honor, where did you get Jezrien from?

His a Windrunner and at times people say he looks like an Herald

[+Child of Hodor]

On 12/31/2020 at 0:53 PM, AutumnWell said:

I have had this theory for a long time now that Cultivation cultivated Syl as a part of her gambit. But listen to me for once. This might sound crazy but might make sense in a minute.

I guess we can all agree that Syl is different from most of the honorspren. She is just too jovial and lighthearted than most honorspren we have seen. Well... also Rua, but that's probably due to his bond with the Lopen.

Then I reread the part in Oathbringer when Kaladin returns to Hearthstone.

Another pure voice. Pure being the keyword here. I'm certain that spren can hear the Rhythms of Roshar. And the tones of the three Shards are described to be the pure tones of Roshar in RoW. Honor is dead. Why would Odium bother Syl? It is Cultivation's voice.

Like tapped crystal. Dalinar described Cultivation's voice to be like 'tumbling stones'. Tapped crystal. Tumbling stone. Maybe I'm overthinking, but both of these voices are of Cultivation.

What else did she do? Probably kept Syl sleeping for that millennium. I mean, we can't take the explanation to be Syl's mind being childish. That... doesn't sound Brando's style to me. 'Cause there is only her. Only her. A single spren slept for a thousand years after breaking her bond. Coincidence? I think not.

Why?

The bigger question is why. Ok now. Hear me. There is too much in my head that I can't remember now or can't explain. But here is my theory.

Kaladin is the 'Son of Tanavast'. The successor of Tanavast (refer to this WoB). And Cultivaton wants him alive. Syl is mostly the reason Kal is alive. And that's why we love her.

In Book 5, Dalinar loses the contest of champions. Yet, somehow, he will be able to reforge Honor. Instead of bearing the Shard himself, he gives it to Kaladin because now he is bound to serve Odium. And Kal ascends to Honor.

I don't have much to support this other than:

• Kal's first chapter being 'Honor is Dead'.
• Kal saying 'Honor is Dead'.
• Cultivation only influences people who will somehow be related to godhood.
• And Dalinar being too obvious a choice for Honor.

This is one of the "Child of Tanavast" explanations I like. Either Stormfather senses he could be the successor or Kaladin just strongly reminds Stormfather of Tanavast in his personality. Stormfather is kind of dumb and extremely pessimistic, as soon as the Everstorm comes he tries to kill Dalinar with a highstorm. He assumes all is lost and wants to give Dalinar a quick death as courtesy. I don't think the Stormfather consciously thinks anyone will succeed in becoming the next Honor, but he may sense that possibility in Kaladin.

That's a great pull on Syl hearing the pure voice! It would make sense for the voice to be Cultivation since she is still alive. There is an outside chance that it's Tanavast either from beyond the grave or the past/all times spiritual realm mumbo-jumbo. The whole first part of what Syl is saying about knowing Kaladin before she knew him is spiritual realm mumbo-jumbo the voice could be too. 

I think Kaladin is also an obvious choice for Honor. I think he'd be a good Honor + Odium and possibly as good of an Odium as one can expect, especially if Syl and he are still one on the Spiritual level. Shallan thinks of him in an interesting way in OB:

Quote

Always serious, always solemn - and so tense. like he had to be strict with himself to contain his passion.  - OB CH. 39

If he is Odium's new vessel with a little bit of Honor through being bonded to Syl he might be the best odium vessel we can hope for. Probably still would be a problem as we've seen before the Shard's nature will win out in the long run. I doubt that's where the series is going especially not in book 5, but who knows. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/31/2020 at 0:53 PM, AutumnWell said:

The successor of Tanavast (refer to this WoB)

That WoB does not in any way confirm it means he's Tanavast's successor

[Use the Falchion]

I'd be down with that. I could sort of see it (along with Cultivation's plans with Dalinar) being sort of "hedge your bets" situation. She if Dalinar failed, Cultivation would still have Kaladin as a back-up. If Kaladin failed, Dalinar would still be around and primed to put the pieces together. 

But now I'm curious about what that would mean to Kaladin, and how that'd play into his development. 

 

[Sara Stormblessed]

On 1/1/2021 at 1:00 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

This is exactly the type of cursed torture Brandon would put Kaladin through. I always thought he would become a new Herald to renew the Oathpact between books 5 and 6... but this... damn. This sounds so much better.

I agree. I don't think Kaladin will get a quiet, peaceful, normal happily-ever-after. 
 

On 2/12/2021 at 2:34 PM, Forms of mind said:

I always thought kaladin would take jezriens spot. if you look at death rattle bellow. the crown = king is jezrien is fallen title. spear is kaladin. Tower is unknown. tower is to watch over something? 

  Quote

"He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!"

 way of kings

 

What if Tower=Navani, Crown=Jasnah, and Spear=Kaladin? Dalinar is the obvious linchpin for this trio. Not sure what that means though... Dalinar's story ever amplifies the meaning of "unite them". First, he thought it was the high princes, then the Knights Radiant, then the three realms. I don't think we have seen the true meaning of the "them" in these instructions yet. Could it mean that Dalinar should unite the splinters of Honor, so the shard can be taken up again? Also, do you guys think that uniting the splinters of Honor will mean that spren cease to exist? They are splinters of him after all. If the puzzle is put back together, what happens to the pieces? Or maybe most spren are children of Honor and only Sly is a splinter? 
 

14 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

. I think he'd be a good Honor + Odium and possibly as good of an Odium as one can expect, especially if Syl and he are still one on the Spiritual level. Shallan thinks of him in an interesting way in OB:

I agree. Kaladin is the perfect combo of honor and passion. I can't stop thinking that Kaladin is the person who will fulfill this epigraph from Chapter 29: "I have begun searching for a pathway out of this conundrum by seeking the ideal person to act on my behalf. Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A … sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill." (On the other hand, the fact that it says "sword" and precedes an Adolin chapter has me second-guessing that theory. However, "kill" and "protect" are two words that Kaladin obsesses over like nobody else, so it has to be him. Right?)

When you read all the Part Two Epigraphs  in order, it implies that 1) uniting Odium with another shard will solve some problems, that 2) uniting two opposing shards is not necessarily a solution, and then 3) foreshadows the danger of exactly T-Odium. I wonder if the "pathway out of this conundrum" is actually a uniting of all shards into Adonalsium 2.0, which will be accomplished by someone who can both kill and protect. Is that gonna be Kal? ...I really don't think that Kal holding all shards is the direction Brandon is taking this character. Or maybe I am reading too much into this and Harmony is just looking for an avatar and that's...Wax? 

Finally, the primary reason that I wanted to reply to this post: Do you think... we should start shipping Kaladin x Cultivation? Maybe she is missing her man and sees him in Kaladin, and that's why she set Syl up to bring Kaladin to the point of taking up the shard of Honor. Then Kaladin (aka Honor 2.0) and Cultivation will have a shard wedding in the sky officiated by Odium 3.0 (Dalinar?? Moash???). 
 

Stroms. I am so long-winded. I'm sorry. It's a crime. But... you guys all read Sanderson, so you must like that kind of thing. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Sara Stormblessed

[Bejarden]

6 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

agree. Kaladin is the perfect combo of honor and passion. I can't stop thinking that Kaladin is the person who will fulfill this epigraph from Chapter 29: "I have begun searching for a pathway out of this conundrum by seeking the ideal person to act on my behalf. Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A … sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill." (On the other hand, the fact that it says "sword" and precedes an Adolin chapter has me second-guessing that theory. However, "kill" and "protect" are two words that Kaladin obsesses over like nobody else, so it has to be him. Right?)

It’s wax

He literally calls himself harmony’s sword

And this is harmony talking and it fits the timeline very well

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

What if Tower=Navani, Crown=Jasnah, and Spear=Kaladin?

I do have to say that this Death Rattle fits the Battle of the Tower pretty well. He swore the first Ideal that is unique to his order, which you could argue gains him the title of Windrunner. He picked up the spear to fight for what he saw as right. And as thanks, he got Dalinar's cloak, with Dalinar's tower and crown glyphpair sewn into it.

[Blackwarder]

On 2020-12-31 at 8:53 PM, AutumnWell said:

 

 

Like tapped crystal. Dalinar described Cultivation's voice to be like 'tumbling stones'. Tapped crystal. Tumbling stone. Maybe I'm overthinking, but both of these voices are of Cultivation.

 

That’s a great catch! I remembered something about pure voice while reading RoW and figured that it’s one of the pure notes of Roshar but I never connected it to cultivation until this.

I’ve had a theory for a long time now that both Shalan and Kaladin are the products of cultivation breeding program as part of her master plan.

[Bejarden]

My theory is that all the back covers of the books

There are 4 that we watch...

(Those things) 

Are the aimains watching on behalf of cultivation what she has done 

I can defend all of them but shallan and navani

This may be canon I don’t know it could be completely wrong I just don’t know

[Master Silver]

I could see both Jasnah and Navani in a knee jerk reaction to Dalinar losing, going after him, and Kaladin saying wait!!! When Navani leaves, she breaks her bond with the sibling. Jasnah abdicates to go be a world hopper/ Kaladin takes up the crown and running the tower (Dalinar's Kingdom) while perhaps the sibling bonds to Relain after all. 

[mathiau]

Just now, Master Silver said:

I could see both Jasnah and Navani in a knee jerk reaction to Dalinar losing, going after him, and Kaladin saying wait!!! When Navani leaves, she breaks her bond with the sibling. Jasnah abdicates to go be a world hopper/ Kaladin takes up the crown and running the tower (Dalinar's Kingdom) while perhaps the sibling bonds to Relain after all. 

Navani definitely won't do that. If Dalinar loses Alethkar doesn't really exists anymore so she might abdicate and leave offworld with Adolin and Shallan

[Master Silver]

Just now, mathiau said:

Navani definitely won't do that. If Dalinar loses Alethkar doesn't really exists anymore so she might abdicate and leave offworld with Adolin and Shallan

You don't think Navani would leave in order to be with her beloved Dalinar? The Fused just lost their top scientist. Taravangian certainly could spin this in a way that he is the hero, and Dalinar is going off to be noble and kill insane gods. In a way it would be the same sort of WHHHAT plot flip that happened in the mistborn series. 

Spoiler

How the Lord Ruler was actually saving the world. But we don't find out till the end he isn't the big bad.

 

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Master Silver said:

You don't think Navani would leave in order to be with her beloved Dalinar

Not if that necessitate abandoning her people

Quote

The Fused just lost their top scientist. Taravangian certainly could spin this in a way that he is the hero, and Dalinar is going off to be noble and kill insane gods. In a way it would be the same sort of WHHHAT plot flip that happened in the mistborn series.

He really couldn't. (Also the Fused's top scientist is probably El, not Raboniel)

Quote

 

  Hide contents

How the Lord Ruler was actually saving the world. But we don't find out till the end he isn't the big bad.

Quote

TLR wasn't saving the world he was delaying Preservation's endgame. In SH Preservation said he was already dead, if TLR had kept empting the well every thousand years Lera would have eventually dropped Preservation and Scadrial would have become a second Sel.

 

[Procrastination]

On 2/12/2021 at 4:28 PM, Andy92 said:

I always assumed that Death Rattle referred to the battle at the Tower at the end of TWoK. The crown and the spear are referencing Dalinar and Kaladin. I also assumed the fallen title was probably referring to Kaladin “picking up” the title of Knights Radiant when he swore his ideals at the battle. 

It’s not exactly clear-cut though. It could be referring to something more, like with Jezrien. But the tower/crown/spear combo always directed me to the end of TWoK. 

This might be true, but I was also thinking:

We have learned that Shallan bonded Testament and swore oaths as a child, enough to get a Shardblade (which led to her killing her mother and her betraying her oaths and killing her spren etc., etc). That was long before Syl found Kaladin. If that's enough to be a full Radiant, then how is Kaladin picking up the "fallen title" of Radiant?? It sounds like the Death Rattle is saying that the person it's talking about will be the very first to have that title in a extremely long time, like a Herald. 

(But then again, I'm the sort of person that wants a twist to be super dramatic and awesome soooo....)

Edited March 12, 2021 by rosharian_cat

[mathiau]

27 minutes ago, rosharian_cat said:

(Also if you have not read RoW DO NOT READ THIS)

This is the RoW spolier thread, I hope everyone hear has read it^^

Also, you're making a good point

[Procrastination]

Kind of off topic, but I feel like even if Elhokar wasn't ready to say the oaths until the day he died, , he was still being watched by the Cryptics.(he says he sees strange figures in mirrors with twisted heads in TWoK) Which makes me wonder, hmmm, well, why would Elhokar be a Lightweaver?? Would it be because he was kind of lying to himself, and the Cryptics are fascinated with things like that? Or could it be that Cultivation was interfering here, too?

...[mysterious silence]...

[mathiau]

8 minutes ago, rosharian_cat said:

Kind of off topic, but I feel like even if Elhokar wasn't ready to say the oaths until the day he died, , he was still being watched by the Cryptics.(he says he sees strange figures in mirrors with twisted heads in TWoK) Which makes me wonder, hmmm, well, why would Elhokar be a Lightweaver?? Would it be because he was kind of lying to himself, and the Cryptics are fascinated with things like that? Or could it be that Cultivation was interfering here, too?

Cryptics watch people who lie (especially to themself like Elhokar about his ability to rule), they were watching Taravangian and he never came close to become a Lightweaver

Quote

...[mysterious silence]...

???