i’m in the details

A Kelsier and Dalinar comparison + some spite

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Alright this may be controversial though I can’t see why. Kelsier and Dalinar are pretty similar. Bold faced slaughter of the people who oppose them. Loyal no strings attached love for their family/friends. And character development in the form of mercy/understanding for their enemies (Elend/Listeners) They are both incredibly skilled leaders, and get what they want with little to no regard for those around them. 
 

but I see so much hate for Kelsier from the fan base for doing, in my opinion, exactly what Dalinar would have done roles reversed. 
 

Kel is hands down my favorite character in the cosmere and I would like to hear from someone who thinks he’s evil or whatever why. Respectfully 

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5 minutes ago, i’m in the details said:

Alright this may be controversial though I can’t see why. Kelsier and Dalinar are pretty similar. Bold faced slaughter of the people who oppose them. Loyal no strings attached love for their family/friends. And character development in the form of mercy/understanding for their enemies (Elend/Listeners) They are both incredibly skilled leaders, and get what they want with little to no regard for those around them. 
 

but I see so much hate for Kelsier from the fan base for doing, in my opinion, exactly what Dalinar would have done roles reversed. 
 

Kel is hands down my favorite character in the cosmere and I would like to hear from someone who thinks he’s evil or whatever why. Respectfully 

I don't think that Kelsier is totally evil, but I do believe that Dalinar is a better person than Kelsier. The key difference is that Kelsier is a person who would be the villain in another context, while Dalinar is a man who was the villain, realized it, and has made an active effort to change himself.

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3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The key difference is that Kelsier is a person who would be the villain in another context

I see people say that a lot, and I am aware of the wob that says just that. But I see no evidence to support it in the text. In secret history he spares several Ire when he easily could’ve just slit their throats. He saves Elend for no reason other than Vin and later admits he’s not too upset that he ended up king. He’s ruthless no doubt, but he seems to have a pretty squared up moral compass. 
 

I agree Dalinar is a better man, but not that much of a better man. He changed partially due to not having the memories of his evilness. Kelsier did it with no help whatsoever. 

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Just now, i’m in the details said:

I see people say that a lot, and I am aware of the wob that says just that. But I see no evidence to support it in the text. In secret history he spares several Ire when he easily could’ve just slit their throats. He saves Elend for no reason other than Vin and later admits he’s not too upset that he ended up king. He’s ruthless no doubt, but he seems to have a pretty squared up moral compass. 

Kelsier also started leading a inter-plantetary cult that regularly assassinates the competition, possibly killed someone with hemalurgy to get a body, and started a religion that worshipped him that resulted in several priests dying to keep the location of the BoM secret.

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5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Kelsier also started leading a inter-plantetary cult that regularly assassinates the competition, possibly killed someone with hemalurgy to get a body, and started a religion that worshipped him that resulted in several priests dying to keep the location of the BoM secret.

Allegedly started the Ghostbloods, and may have little to no control of what they do on a daily basis as he can’t leave world. We don’t know he killed anyone to get that body, and if he did, what their story was. And yes the-starting-devote-religion thing is megalomaniac as heck, but seems to be one of the only tricks he knows to inspire good change, and is completely vollentary as far as we know. 
 

edit: appreciate the quick replies I’m bored af rn :)

Edited by i’m in the details
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1 minute ago, i’m in the details said:

Allegedly started the Ghostbloods, and may have little to no control of what they do on a daily basis as he can’t leave world. We don’t know he killed anyone to get that body, and if he did, what their story was. And yes the-starting-devote-religion thing is megalomaniac as heck, but seems to be one of the only tricks he knows to inspire good change, and is completely vollentary as far as we know. 

Well, he seems to have a habit of starting religions, then losing control of them. both the Ghostbloods and South Scadrial have killed people. Survivorism has turned out alright, but 1 out of 3 is still pretty bad.

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Just now, Nameless said:

Well, he seems to have a habit of starting religions, then losing control of them. both the Ghostbloods and South Scadrial have killed people. Survivorism has turned out alright, but 1 out of 3 is still pretty bad.

Ironically the one that he didn’t explicitly start turned out the peaceful-we-get-drunk kind. Though I wouldn’t call GB a religion just yet. 

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Just now, i’m in the details said:

Ironically the one that he didn’t explicitly start turned out the peaceful-we-get-drunk kind. Though I wouldn’t call GB a religion just yet. 

Not quite a religion, but it's pretty close to one. I would term it as a cult, which is pretty close. I guess that Kelsier dying is a better influence that Kelsier surviving.

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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Kelsier also started leading a inter-plantetary cult that regularly assassinates the competition, possibly killed someone with hemalurgy to get a body, and started a religion that worshipped him that resulted in several priests dying to keep the location of the BoM secret.

Actually, we don’t know that the Southerners worship him. They specifically note that he’s the NORTH’s god. They never acknowledge him as theirs. They think all metalborn are minor deities, and it’s unclear whether or not that belief predated Kell’s arrival - or is a result of a misunderstanding (possibly caused by language difficulties).

Wax found bodies. He assumed they were the priests. He also assumed the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler. Considering the whole thing was a con, it’s entirely possible that those bodies were added for ‘decorative purposes’ using random dead people.

While I do believe Kelsier had to kill someone to get that spike, I think Spook’s book implies a willing donor. They WERE looking at ethical hemalurgy, after all.

The Ghostbloods are the crew. The crew also murdered people. Funny how this wasn’t an issue when we were on their side...

We’ve seen the Ghostbloods try to assassinate Jasnah AFTER she tried to have them killed. That’s a pretty good reason to try and kill someone.

They also tried to kill Amaram. And Restares/Kalak. And other SoH. In other words, most of the people we’ve seen them try to kill are enemies of our main characters, as the SoH have been until the end of RoW. We don’t know why they want to wipe out the SoH, but the SoH were trying to restore Desolations and the GBs silently back the coalition. So that may have something to do with it.

The worst thing an individual GB has done is capture Lift and turn her over. And Mraize made sure Lift wouldn’t be killed when he did so, which is rather interesting.

And if you plan to bring up Gerrah or the Carriage driver, you’re welcome to the question I plan to ask Brandon next time we have an AMA: In WoR Shallan finds her carriage driver dead and assumes the Ghostbloods killed him. In RoW Lift finds Gerrah dead and assumes Mraize killed him. Neither one witnessed the murders. Were the Ghostbloods actually responsible?

There’s been a low key theme of Thaidakar being blamed for murders his people didn’t commit. Thaidakar is blamed by Gavilar, then by Amaram. If the GBs killed the driver and the steward, then why didn’t we see it? It’s very intentionally set up so we assume a culprit - but we never see the crime.

(I have a crazy theory that Liss(Chana?) actually killed the driver (Fire makes sense for her) while operating on Jasnah’s orders to take out the Ghostbloods. And that the ‘chicken’ is a rogue Kandra (which is why Lift couldn’t heal the feathers) who killed Gerrah, then stole his Aviar’s body.)

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I don't particularly like either of them as people, fascinating characters though they might be. Dalinar has the far bigger kill-count but I'll give this to Dalinar, he's more responsible than Kelsier, whose approach to the insurrection he started was "I'll either succeed or I'll be dead so it won't be my problem any more". It's understandable, given his life up to that point though, that I agree with, and he's more fun than Dalinar, so I like him better, eh.

Edited by Honorless
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10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

While I do believe Kelsier had to kill someone to get that spike, I think Spook’s book implies a willing donor. They WERE looking at ethical hemalurgy, after all.

I bet he literally just grabbed a mistwraith and did it kandra style.  That would explain how he still has his scars in the vision.  They're part of his Identity at this point so I bet the Investiture would transfer them over.  

14 hours ago, i’m in the details said:

Alright this may be controversial though I can’t see why. Kelsier and Dalinar are pretty similar. Bold faced slaughter of the people who oppose them. Loyal no strings attached love for their family/friends. And character development in the form of mercy/understanding for their enemies (Elend/Listeners) They are both incredibly skilled leaders, and get what they want with little to no regard for those around them. 
 

but I see so much hate for Kelsier from the fan base for doing, in my opinion, exactly what Dalinar would have done roles reversed. 
 

Kel is hands down my favorite character in the cosmere and I would like to hear from someone who thinks he’s evil or whatever why. Respectfully 

Kelsier is awesome, but Dalinar doesn't just wish he's a better person, he makes active strides towards it.  Kelsier clearly knows he's a bad guy, but he likes running cons too much to really change, at least not as rapidly as Dalinar is capable of doing.  

I don't hate Kelsier though.  Hell, his current gang is mostly targeting absolute scum.  A cowardly asshole who abandoned humanity and started/leads a religious fundamentalist secret society of genocidal imperialists; Literally Amaram; an imperialist religious fanatic domestic abuser...these are all prime Kelsier targets.  Rich important assholes who really have some comeuppance coming.  Jasnah is an exception but even she is casual with some people's lives at times, especially early on.  

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Kelsier also started leading a inter-plantetary cult that regularly assassinates the competition, possibly killed someone with hemalurgy to get a body, and started a religion that worshipped him that resulted in several priests dying to keep the location of the BoM secret.

As I mentioned above I don't think he killed a sapient person to get that body.  And the Ghostbloods, while they do some bad things (like Kelsier does), are also clearly iconoclastic and actively interested in screwing the Vorin establishment, which I can get behind and definitely matches Kelsier's "eat the rich" MO. 

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They really aren't that alike.

Kelsier was born to an ostracized group, his parents were killed, he pulled his way up, then was put into slavery. He ran away from slavery and learned to be a mystical rogue. He used his abilities and connections in the underworld to help overthrow the Lord Ruler and throw the world into chaos, causing much death and destruction. His second plan to make himself a diety took hold and now, as a dead guy, is running a multi-planet underworld organization that plans several assassinations.

Take the opposite of all that and you end up with Dalinar: a highborn, straight up fighter, who spent his youth conquering and became a mystical administrator in his older age. When it came time to overthrow the powers above him, he made a contract with the power in question and is planning his way to win the result, all while trying to create solid Connections among those who he may have to leave behind.

Yeah. Totally the same.

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On 12/30/2020 at 7:38 PM, i’m in the details said:

Kel is hands down my favorite character in the cosmere and I would like to hear from someone who thinks he’s evil or whatever why. Respectfully 

I just wanna say that Kelsier is also one of my favorite characters.

And I absolutely think he is absolutely responsible for all the things the ghostbloods did. He is dangerous, sociopathic, and, from some perspectives, absolutely evil. 

I don’t think the two opinions are mutually exclusive. 
 

And for the people who think that Kel is just a morally upstanding guy who wouldn’t ever kill anyone who didn’t deserve it, here’s some WoBs.

Quote

Javier

Which of your characters do you feel is the most misunderstood by fans?

Brandon Sanderson

If I'm doing my job, people won't misunderstand characters.

The one I usually answer on this question is Kelsier, who... Kelsier is definitely a heroic figure. He did a lot of right things. But Kelsier is much closer to being a villain than people see, because he was in the best place for him possible, which is being capable of burning something down. He is just really good at tearing stuff down, and he is a great agent of chaos in that regard, and great at coming up with masterful ways to mess up what other people are doing to get what he wants. And what he wanted in that story happened to align very well with the needs and interests of the general population, and he genuinely wants to do good and right by them. It's not like he's some antihero who is accidentally doing the right things. But he is arrogant; he is very, very driven; and he is very, very dangerous; which are a combination that could have led to disaster in other circumstances.

YouTube Livestream 24 (Dec. 31, 2020)
Quote

Questioner

Is Kelsier evil?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier has evil leanings. I would not say evil but he's on the line.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)
Quote

i_are_pant

1. Which of your protagonist characters do you dislike the most as a person? Taking into account that you know all of their inner secrets and motivations.2. On the flip side. Which of your antagonists do you connect with the most? The Lord Ruler seems an obvious choice as he was misunderstood by everybody for so long. But still, I'm curious.

Brandon Sanderson

  • This is a tough one, as while I'm writing, I HAVE to like everyone. However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath--meaning the actual, technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude.

  • Elend. I see myself as an idealist like him.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 17, 2013)

 

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4 hours ago, Dannex said:

I just wanna say that Kelsier is also one of my favorite characters.

And I absolutely think he is absolutely responsible for all the things the ghostbloods did. He is dangerous, sociopathic, and, from some perspectives, absolutely evil. 

I don’t think the two opinions are mutually exclusive. 
 

And for the people who think that Kel is just a morally upstanding guy who wouldn’t ever kill anyone who didn’t deserve it, here’s some WoBs.

 

Some of us are very aware of this and still don’t think Kelsier is completely responsible. (And, just to note, I’m the person who has him threatening to make MeLaan drown herself in lye in a roast battle. So it’s not like I don’t understand what he’s capable of.)

One part is because we also have a WoB, as well as textual evidence from TFE, indicating that Kelsier is a terrible administrator. We also know that his version of running a group is to say “I want X done” then leave figuring out how to get X done to others. He’s also the kind of person who would think that oversight indicates a lack of trust, so he doesn’t bother with it. 

All of which indicates he’s likely to be responsible for policy, but not individual methodology.

There’s also more minor things. We can be pretty sure he wouldn’t have agreed with how Mraize tried to recruit Shallan, as it’s opposed to the way Kelsier recruits Vin. Also, it was a stupid way of doing it. Kelsier is too good at reading people to use that method. (This has zero to do with morals, btw. Morally he’d have no issue; it just wasn’t a good way to recruit someone.)

We do know he wouldn’t be okay with what happened to Lift under most circumstances. One of Kelsier’s few consistent soft spots is children, even unborn ones. (As seen by his decision to leave a pregnant noblewoman alive.) He’s more likely to try and recruit Lift than capture her.

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Posted (edited)

On 12/31/2020 at 0:23 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, we don’t know that the Southerners worship him. They specifically note that he’s the NORTH’s god. They never acknowledge him as theirs. They think all metalborn are minor deities, and it’s unclear whether or not that belief predated Kell’s arrival - or is a result of a misunderstanding (possibly caused by language difficulties).

Wax found bodies. He assumed they were the priests. He also assumed the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler. Considering the whole thing was a con, it’s entirely possible that those bodies were added for ‘decorative purposes’ using random dead people.

While I do believe Kelsier had to kill someone to get that spike, I think Spook’s book implies a willing donor. They WERE looking at ethical hemalurgy, after all.

The Ghostbloods are the crew. The crew also murdered people. Funny how this wasn’t an issue when we were on their side...

We’ve seen the Ghostbloods try to assassinate Jasnah AFTER she tried to have them killed. That’s a pretty good reason to try and kill someone.

They also tried to kill Amaram. And Restares/Kalak. And other SoH. In other words, most of the people we’ve seen them try to kill are enemies of our main characters, as the SoH have been until the end of RoW. We don’t know why they want to wipe out the SoH, but the SoH were trying to restore Desolations and the GBs silently back the coalition. So that may have something to do with it.

The worst thing an individual GB has done is capture Lift and turn her over. And Mraize made sure Lift wouldn’t be killed when he did so, which is rather interesting.

And if you plan to bring up Gerrah or the Carriage driver, you’re welcome to the question I plan to ask Brandon next time we have an AMA: In WoR Shallan finds her carriage driver dead and assumes the Ghostbloods killed him. In RoW Lift finds Gerrah dead and assumes Mraize killed him. Neither one witnessed the murders. Were the Ghostbloods actually responsible?

There’s been a low key theme of Thaidakar being blamed for murders his people didn’t commit. Thaidakar is blamed by Gavilar, then by Amaram. If the GBs killed the driver and the steward, then why didn’t we see it? It’s very intentionally set up so we assume a culprit - but we never see the crime.

(I have a crazy theory that Liss(Chana?) actually killed the driver (Fire makes sense for her) while operating on Jasnah’s orders to take out the Ghostbloods. And that the ‘chicken’ is a rogue Kandra (which is why Lift couldn’t heal the feathers) who killed Gerrah, then stole his Aviar’s body.)

You forgot trying to Kill a Herald,  And getting the listeners to realise Odium.  I'm not saying that he didnt have a really good reason for what he does But Kelsier  Has never been a guy to care about the methods of what he does  just the reason for it.  That's why he was so willing to kill soldiers and others who were forced by circumstances to work for the nobility.  Hell in the original draft he killed one of his own people just to prove a point.  This is how he differs from Dalinar,  He is of ruin whereas Dalinar is of honor.    For Dalinar it is all about method about the journey not the destination.

Another thing to consider Is that Kelsier  Was ultimately motivated by selfishness. You wanted freedom for the ska not because the ska were oppressed  But because he wanted revenge and freedom for the ska was his way of doing it. Dalinar  on the other hand is motivated by higher principles As well as his need to redeem himself. 

To put it plainly I enjoy kel  I think hes a great guy but I also know hes not a good guy he simply a better guy than the Lord ruler. The Lord ruler isn't in this story. 

 

Edited by bmcclure7
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1 minute ago, bmcclure7 said:

You forgot trying to Kill a Herald,  And getting the listeners to realise Odium.  I'm not saying that he A really good reason for what he does But Kelsier  Has never been a guy to care about the methods of what he does  just the reason for it.  That's why he was so willing to kill soldiers and others who were forced by circumstances to work for the nobility.  Hell in the original draft he killed one of his own people just to prove a point.  This is how he differs from Dalinar,  He is of ruin whereas Dalinar is of honor.    For Dalinar it is all about method about the journey not the destination.

Another thing to consider Is that Kelsier  Was ultimately motivated by selfishness. You wanted freedom for the ska not because the ska were oppressed  But because he wanted revenge and freedom for the ska was his way of doing it. Dalinar  on the other hand is motivated by higher principles As well as his need to redeem himself. 

To put it plainly I enjoy kel  I think hes a great guy but I also know hes not a good guy he simply a better guy than the Lord ruler. The Lord ruler isn't in this story. 

 

Kalak ordered the deaths of Kaladin’s squad. And his organization has caused no end of grief and was involved in trying to return the Desolations. I have no issues with the GBs trying to capture him.

There is no indication that Axindweth had anything to with the Ghostbloods. That is just one theory about her, but it doesn’t make sense when considering that the GBs have no motive for wanting a Desolation.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kalak ordered the deaths of Kaladin’s squad. And his organization has caused no end of grief and was involved in trying to return the Desolations. I have no issues with the GBs trying to capture him.

There is no indication that Axindweth had anything to with the Ghostbloods. That is just one theory about her, but it doesn’t make sense when considering that the GBs have no motive for wanting a Desolation.

 It would be something kel would think of though,  Start chaos to create opportunity, Tear things down so you can rebuild, he did something similar with the house war in mistborn,  Ultimately I don't think he wants odium to win  But not been on the side of odium does not mean he is on the side of the knight radiant  or that he's a good guy.  It certainly does not mean he is anything like Dalinar.  

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Posted (edited)

On 12/30/2020 at 8:38 PM, i’m in the details said:

Alright this may be controversial though I can’t see why. Kelsier and Dalinar are pretty similar. Bold faced slaughter of the people who oppose them. Loyal no strings attached love for their family/friends. And character development in the form of mercy/understanding for their enemies (Elend/Listeners) They are both incredibly skilled leaders, and get what they want with little to no regard for those around them. 
 

but I see so much hate for Kelsier from the fan base for doing, in my opinion, exactly what Dalinar would have done roles reversed. 
 

Kel is hands down my favorite character in the cosmere and I would like to hear from someone who thinks he’s evil or whatever why. Respectfully 

 I like the characters but they are completely different from each other kel is of ruin  whereas Dalinar is of honor. 

Edited by bmcclure7
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13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 It would be something kel would think of though,  Start chaos to create opportunity, Tear things down so you can rebuild, he did something similar with the house war in mistborn,  Ultimately I don't think he wants odium to win  But not been on the side of odium does not mean he is on the side of the knight radiant  or that he's a good guy.  It certainly does not mean he is anything like Dalinar.  

Oh, they are absolutely nothing alike. But I doubt Kell would risk Odium’s freedom. The risk to Scadrial is too great.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Oh, they are absolutely nothing alike. But I doubt Kell would risk Odium’s freedom. The risk to Scadrial is too great.

 I'm sure that he has a plan that will prevent odium from getting free in fact I think he may be instrumental in his eventual defeat. I'm not sure if while to wait for that back 5 or book 5.   Simply can't introduce him and not have him show up at some point. 

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11 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

 I'm sure that he has a plan that will prevent odium from getting free in fact I think he may be instrumental in his eventual defeat. I'm not sure if while to wait for that back 5 or book 5.   Simply can't introduce him and not have him show up at some point. 

On this we are agreed. I think he’ll show up in some form in book 5.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kalak ordered the deaths of Kaladin’s squad. And his organization has caused no end of grief and was involved in trying to return the Desolations. I have no issues with the GBs trying to capture him.

There is no indication that Axindweth had anything to with the Ghostbloods. That is just one theory about her, but it doesn’t make sense when considering that the GBs have no motive for wanting a Desolation.

Honestly at this point I would be not so much A-OK with Kelsier going on a Herald-permakilling-spree, as I would be actively cheering him on.  Especially if he goes after Ishar and Kalak.  (no, I do not buy that making Ishar sane again is a good thing, I strongly suspect that he is actually a very bad dude underneath everything)

Besides, Kelsier's never gotten to personally kill a god before.  Maybe he takes down a Herald or two, pins it on Marsh (Marsh would probably like being known as a Herald-killing death god across the cosmere lol), and cons Sazed into taking on multiple extra Shards?  Honestly that would be a pretty great capstone for his career so he can quit hanging out in the Cognitive Realm and see if Mare's waiting for him.  

55 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

On this we are agreed. I think he’ll show up in some form in book 5.

So when I read this I immediately thought "Mistborn spiked into a mistwraith vs. Surgebinder" and I found myself desperately needing that fight.  

I think Kelsier wins if he has atium (though it probably depends a lot on the Surgebinder's powers and ability with them tbh), but I would pay a lot of money to see him take on Kalak or Ishar, or even just have a Let's Have You and Him Fight with Kaladin or Shallan.  

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38 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Honestly at this point I would be not so much A-OK with Kelsier going on a Herald-permakilling-spree, as I would be actively cheering him on.  Especially if he goes after Ishar and Kalak.  (no, I do not buy that making Ishar sane again is a good thing, I strongly suspect that he is actually a very bad dude underneath everything)

Besides, Kelsier's never gotten to personally kill a god before.  Maybe he takes down a Herald or two, pins it on Marsh (Marsh would probably like being known as a Herald-killing death god across the cosmere lol), and cons Sazed into taking on multiple extra Shards?  Honestly that would be a pretty great capstone for his career so he can quit hanging out in the Cognitive Realm and see if Mare's waiting for him.  

So when I read this I immediately thought "Mistborn spiked into a mistwraith vs. Surgebinder" and I found myself desperately needing that fight.  

I think Kelsier wins if he has atium (though it probably depends a lot on the Surgebinder's powers and ability with them tbh), but I would pay a lot of money to see him take on Kalak or Ishar, or even just have a Let's Have You and Him Fight with Kaladin or Shallan.  

He seems to be Fullborn now. That gives him an obscene amount of Speed, which is such a game breaker. 

I don’t think he’d fight directly though. He’s too much of a conman and assassin for that.

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57 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He seems to be Fullborn now. That gives him an obscene amount of Speed, which is such a game breaker. 

I don’t think he’d fight directly though. He’s too much of a conman and assassin for that.

Holy crap, if he got his hands on full Ferruchemy as well as his Mistborn abilities (though I still think it's possible the Bands were made with Investiture tech similarly to Southern Scadrian airships and amulets), that's Rashek levels of overpowered.  (though granted, Rashek didn't have to deal with Allomantic dilution from lerasium, although otoh allomantic powerr dilution over generations seems to proceed at uneven rates/as the plot demands?)

OK, now I want to see Ishar's Connection theft, Surgebinding, and millennia of experience vs. Fullborn Cognitive-Shadow-stapled-to-a-mistwraith-body-plus-maybe-some-extra-Hemalurgic-spikes Kelsier using Metallic Arts Investiture (would Ferruchemical stored weight work for this?) to power Nightblood.  

My money's on Kelsier in that situation.  

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20 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Holy crap, if he got his hands on full Ferruchemy as well as his Mistborn abilities (though I still think it's possible the Bands were made with Investiture tech similarly to Southern Scadrian airships and amulets), that's Rashek levels of overpowered.  (though granted, Rashek didn't have to deal with Allomantic dilution from lerasium, although otoh allomantic powerr dilution over generations seems to proceed at uneven rates/as the plot demands?)

OK, now I want to see Ishar's Connection theft, Surgebinding, and millennia of experience vs. Fullborn Cognitive-Shadow-stapled-to-a-mistwraith-body-plus-maybe-some-extra-Hemalurgic-spikes Kelsier using Metallic Arts Investiture (would Ferruchemical stored weight work for this?) to power Nightblood.  

My money's on Kelsier in that situation.  

My guess is that Kell only has the one spike. He probably does have Breath though, and maybe a bonded Aviar.

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