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Dawnshards on Roshar?


OdiYum

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So Vasher and Shashara came to Roshar to learn how to make an Endowment analogue of Shardblades.  They return to Nalthis, and create the absurdly powerful and destructive Nightblood.  This made me wonder, why is Nightblood so powerful.  1000 breaths is a lot of investiture, but is it comparable to Honor’s perpendicularity or that vessel he murdered (don’t know how to do spoiler tags, and I don’t want to ruin it for anyone).  I didn’t think so, and it made me think maybe Vasher and Shashara took a Dawnshard and gave it to Nightblood, which would explain how he is so powerful.

Kaladin also has some over the top feats as well.  He was able to deflect a highstorm, fight two shardbearers on even ground; unarmored and lacking a shard blade.  He is the only character (aside from Dalinar - but he has been bonding to a super-spren, partial shard, I have no idea what the storm father is) who is describe as having preternatural combat abilities.  And I mean this in terms of pure combat abilities and not incorporating the surges into fighting styles.  When he saves Adolin, he is basically fighting two shardbearers with his eyes closed.  He completely outclasses Szeth in WoR.  He defends a bridge, by himself against an entire squad of Parshendi. Every time this happens his inner monologue describes him as the wind, you cannot stop the wind, etc.  No other wind runner is described this way either.  Teft was arguably closer to the 4th ideal in RoW, and he needed to be treated by lift to stay awake, so it wasn’t because of that.  Maybe Kaladin has a Dawnshard about Protect/Defend/something along those lines, one that Tanavast also had before the shattering.  Maybe that is why he is called the “Son of Tanavast” so much.  Maybe that is why Vyre said Kaladin was basically a force of nature.  Maybe the poem: “Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” Is about Kaladin.  

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I honestly doubt that Kaladin has a dawn shard I think it would be a bit cheap that the reason Kaladin is so powerful is because he has a dawnshard. I agree there is something special about him but I think he should have some credit for being so awesome. Also wouldn’t Kaladin know if he had a dawnshard.
 

However it might explain why the sleepless are so interested in him and communicated with Tien.

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  • 1 month later...

Huh, Nightblood having a Dawnshard... perhaps the Destroy Dawnshard that Jerrick seemed to have in Dragonsteel? Nightblood being the Dawnshard might also fulfill the WoB about one Dawnshard not being like the rest.

I don't know about Kaladin being a Dawnshard though, wouldn't the Sleepless have noticed (they're keeping an eye out on the important Radiants), wouldn't Syl have noticed (their Spiritwebs are Connected after all)?

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On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

This made me wonder, why is Nightblood so powerful.  1000 breaths is a lot of investiture, but is it comparable to Honor’s perpendicularity or that vessel he murdered

Nightblood has grown in power.

Legion release party

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Mason Wheeler

Nightblood is the most ridiculously over-invested thing in the Cosmere, second only to the Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Was this true from the moment of his creation, or did it grow in power over time.

Brandon Sanderson

Grew in power over time. Kind of answers a question that people have been wondering. But, yes.

Not only is he stronger than 1k Breaths, he is "the most [...] Invested thing in the cosmere, second only to the Shards".

So yes, I would say that Nightblood killing Rayse or collapsing (not destroying) Honor's perp is right on brand for him.

Some other WoBs about how Invested Nightblood is:

Spoiler

Salt Lake City signing

Spoiler

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

Questioner

Is that gonna be the answer for all of these?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably!

Questioner

How about a spike charged with Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

A spike charged with Hemalurgy... that depends on...

Questioner

Not in a person.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on how strong, yeah, a spike is moderately, (in the realm of these kinds of things) moderately easy to push on because a spike does not rip off very much Investiture. Only enough to short circuit the soul, and less it over time. I would put that at the bottom, with the top being very hard, to be one of the easier things.

Questioner

How about a metalmind that is full?

Brandon Sanderson

That is full? That is going to be middle of the realm of the, yeah. Generally easier than, for instance, a Shardblade which is going to be very hard.

Questioner #2

A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

Questioner

So that'd be the same for Shardplate too?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

Questioner

A Half-shard?

Brandon Sanderson

A Half-shard shield? That's gonna be moderate.

Questioner

Nightblood? I imagine that being hard.

Brandon Sanderson

Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade.

Questioner

Far beyond metal inside a person? 

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, yes. Depending on how invested the person is.

Questioner

If somebody was invested as much as Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, for instance the God King, right. At the end with all those Breaths. Pushing something inside of him, getting through all of that? Gonna be real hard. Average person on Scadrial? You've seen how hard that is. A drab? Much easier.

Questioner

That was my next one, or no, sorry not a drab. A lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson

A Lifeless, yeah. Even... yeah. Lifeless are kind of weird because they've had their soul leave but then they've had a replacement stuck in in the form of Breath which leaves them in a very weird position compared to a drab which has had part of their Investiture ripped away but a majority remains, so, anyways. I'm going to give you one more. Pick your favorite.

Questioner

A soulstamped piece of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

A soulstamped piece of metal is going to be on the lower, easier side. Not a lot of Investiture going on in a soulstamp.

The important bit is that Nightblood and Susebron are directly compared by Brandon. That's around 50k breaths, which is 50x the original amount.

Orem signing

Spoiler

Questioner

You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.

Greater than the Unmade, less than the Stormfather.

This doesn't rule out Nightblood being a Dawnshard, but it (I think) eliminates the need for him to be one.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

He was able to deflect a highstorm

Probably just Adhesion Unchained tbh.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

fight two shardbearers on even ground; unarmored and lacking a shard blade.

Man was Surgebinding, and also is Realmatically predestined to be a good fighter. Don't think this is outside the range of what we'd expect from him either.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

He is the only character (aside from Dalinar - but he has been bonding to a super-spren, partial shard, I have no idea what the storm father is) who is describe as having preternatural combat abilities.  And I mean this in terms of pure combat abilities and not incorporating the surges into fighting styles.  When he saves Adolin, he is basically fighting two shardbearers with his eyes closed.

Oh, so you think "Kaladin will be good with the spear" is a result of him being a Dawnshard? Well, I'll just point out that Dalinar's fighting all took place long before he bonded the Stormfather. I don't think Kaladin's good fighting is Dawnshard-indicative.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

He completely outclasses Szeth in WoR.

His Surges are more effective, his Blade can shapeshift, and his very presence causes Szeth to doubt all that he knows. Szeth is literally going through an internal mental crisis every single time he sees Kaladin Surgebind, so he's not really at the top of his game. Kaladin has the advantage mentally, physically, and in terms of weapon. The only thing Szeth is better at is training. The result of this fight is unsurprising and doesn't need a Dawnshard to explain it.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

He defends a bridge, by himself against an entire squad of Parshendi.

A single Reverse Lashing takes care of all their arrows. Reverse Lashings are the least Light-intensive, so its really no surprise he's able to pull this one off either. Surgebinders violently outclass normal soldiers, even without Shards. 

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

Every time this happens his inner monologue describes him as the wind, you cannot stop the wind, etc.

This is actually a nice recurring theme and I think a good point, especially considering how much Moash echoes this same rhetoric. I don't think it means he has to be a Dawnshard, but it is something particularly unusual about Kaladin specifically.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

Teft was arguably closer to the 4th ideal in RoW, and he needed to be treated by lift to stay awake, so it wasn’t because of that.

Well, it pretty much was. Youtube livestream 23

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Nouf

What does it mean that Kaladin is close to Honor, and how did that factor into him staying conscious while every other Windrunner in the tower didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

The nuts and bolts answer is, Kaladin basically was in a place where he could say the next oath, and should have said the next oath, and indeed knew the next oath, and it was on his tongue, and he refused to. So basically he was as close to being the next level of Knights Radiant as a person could humanly get, because everyone considered him ready except himself. He even knew that he was ready, but by saying it, it would require him to give up something that was precious to him, which is his feeling guilty. A precious part of his identity as he saw it. And he would have to relinquish that. That's the bulk of it.

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

Kaladin being closer to the Ideals is the answer we get, straight from the horse's mouth.

On 12/30/2020 at 5:50 PM, OdiYum said:

Maybe the poem: “Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.” Is about Kaladin.  

While the rest of what you say is pure conjecture and I can't rebut it, I would just like to note that several details in the poem of Ista have me convinced that the only answer is it was written by a Sleepless (about a hordeling).

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I think it would be very convenient if Kaladin happened to be a Dawnshard.  Especially since one is already on Roshar for sure, and if Nightblood was a DS, that'd make 3.  Some people also believe that Dalinar is connect to a DS as well.  

 

Dawnshard are even rarer than Shards in the Cosmere.  There are tons of worlds and stories in the Cosmere, and I really doubt that all or most of the Dawnshards would be present on Roshar, especially at this point in the timeline.  I do think that it's possible that Nightblood is connected to a Dawnshard, but we have no idea.  Kaladin is special, but not a Dawnshard.

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3 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I think it would be very convenient if Kaladin happened to be a Dawnshard.  Especially since one is already on Roshar for sure, and if Nightblood was a DS, that'd make 3.  Some people also believe that Dalinar is connect to a DS as well.  

 

Dawnshard are even rarer than Shards in the Cosmere.  There are tons of worlds and stories in the Cosmere, and I really doubt that all or most of the Dawnshards would be present on Roshar, especially at this point in the timeline.  I do think that it's possible that Nightblood is connected to a Dawnshard, but we have no idea.  Kaladin is special, but not a Dawnshard.

We know Roashar has at least two.

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4 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Is there a WoB?

"I wish I could do more. You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but nothing is certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone." -Honor, The Way of Kings chapter 75.

Note it says Dawnshards plural.

There are several other places where Rosharans refer to Dawnshards. Again note the s.

therefore more than one.

Edited by Frustration
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9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

"I wish I could do more. You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but nothing is certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone." -Honor, The Way of Kings chapter 75.

Note it says Dawnshards plural.

There are several other places where Rosharans refer to Dawnshards. Again note the s.

therefore more than one.

That in no way implies that Honor was referring specifically to multiple Dawnshards that currently exist on Roshar.  He could have been referring to Dawnshards in general.  He could have been saying that any Dawnshards that did exist on Roshar no longer do.  We don't even know if Honor was aware of the Change DS that was in Aimia, let alone how long Change has been there in the first place.  Also, why would he imply that they wouldn't have access to the Dawnshards if they indeed were located on their world?  If anything, the fact that Honor said "without the Dawnshards" leads me to believe that Honor either didn't know of any that were on Roshar at the time, or he knew that there were none located on Roshar at the time.

Edited by Ba-Ado-Fisherman
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1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

That in no way implies that Honor was referring specifically to multiple Dawnshards that currently exist on Roshar.  He could have been referring to Dawnshards in general.  He could have been saying that any Dawnshards that did exist on Roshar no longer do.  We don't even know if Honor was aware of the Change DS that was in Aimia, let alone how long Change has been there in the first place.  Also, why would he imply that they wouldn't have access to the Dawnshards if they indeed were located on their world?  If anything, the fact that Honor said "without the Dawnshards" leads me to believe that Honor either didn't know of any that were on Roshar at the time, or he knew that there were none located on Roshar at the time.

That is a fair point, but I'm saying that arguing that Roashar has too many Dawnshards is not the most secure of arguments.

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40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is a fair point, but I'm saying that arguing that Roashar has too many Dawnshards is not the most secure of arguments.

How?  It doesn't make sense for Brandon to place all of them or most of them on one specific planet in one series, seeing as they are immensely important to the entire Cosmere.

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27 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

How?  It doesn't make sense for Brandon to place all of them or most of them on one specific planet in one series, seeing as they are immensely important to the entire Cosmere.

Well for starters it's his major epic fantasy series.

and on your other point, we know for a fact that at least one remained so it doesn't seem unlikly others didn't as well, Honor sounded like all were lost, so using that as evidence isn't very effective.

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This series is also the only one that’s explicitly mentioned the term “Dawnshard” too, isn’t it? Tanavast name drops it early in a vision to Dalinar, and now we get a standalone novella about them. They’ll be important Cosmere-wide, but they’ve been setup to be quite a bit more important to Stormlight so far. 

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16 hours ago, extremepayne said:

Probably just Adhesion Unchained tbh.

I would have been harsher and said "normal wind manipulation that we've already seen Syl use in WoK" but as discussed in the Rambling about restrictions thread this two concept are probably the same

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Oh, so you think "Kaladin will be good with the spear" is a result of him being a Dawnshard? Well, I'll just point out that Dalinar's fighting all took place long before he bonded the Stormfather. I don't think Kaladin's good fighting is Dawnshard-indicative.

Also he doesn't show the known side effect of bearing a Dawnshard

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While the rest of what you say is pure conjecture and I can't rebut it, I would just like to note that several details in the poem of Ista have me convinced that the only answer is it was written by a Sleepless (about a hordeling).

I see an empty post when I click that link

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20 hours ago, Andy92 said:

This series is also the only one that’s explicitly mentioned the term “Dawnshard” too, isn’t it? Tanavast name drops it early in a vision to Dalinar, and now we get a standalone novella about them. They’ll be important Cosmere-wide, but they’ve been setup to be quite a bit more important to Stormlight so far. 

Hoid had a DS at one point, and he's been around since the very beginning.  Stormlight was indeed the first place where Brandon explicitly named them as Dawnshards, but I have a strong feeling that we're going to be able to go back into previous books and see hints of them as the Cosmere progresses.  Seeing as they were used to shatter Adonalsium, I'd assume that they have played a part in other worlds in the past.

 

I think Brandon simply uses SA to introduce a lot of Cosmere-wide ideas and concepts.  We have 3 Shards, a bunch of Hoid, the epigraphs of letters between Hoid and Frost/Harmony.  Many more opportunities to see characters that actually have knowledge of these things.  For example, we didn't learn about the pure tones of Shards until RoW, and now we know that Brandon hinted at them all the way back in Hero of Ages.

 

Seeing as Stormlight is the biggest and most epic series in the Cosmere, it's safe to say that Dawnshards will play a major role in the story, I just have to imagine that we won't see all of them in one place until at least book 9-10.  I expect to see more Dawnshard stuff in Mistborn era 3, Elantris sequel, Warbreaker sequel (if we get it) etc.

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I don’t think all four of them are on Roshar either (would make sense if one was on Scadrial especially with Mistborn being his other big series). I think it’s likely Roshar may have more than one though. They’ve likely moved around who knows how many times since the shattering too.

It’ll be interesting to see how he handles all the Cosmere-wide stuff going forward. The books seem to be more dependent on each other lately to get the full story.  

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1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

For example, we didn't learn about the pure tones of Shards until RoW, and now we know that Brandon hinted at them all the way back in Hero of Ages.

Earlier, even — bronzepulses were introduced in TFE, the Well's pulse in WoA, and it looks like there's even hints in Elantris of all places. (Raoden finds a book talking about why only certain shapes work for Aons, and it's explained with terms he doesn't understand like "frequency" and "pulse length".)

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8 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Earlier, even — bronzepulses were introduced in TFE, the Well's pulse in WoA, and it looks like there's even hints in Elantris of all places. (Raoden finds a book talking about why only certain shapes work for Aons, and it's explained with terms he doesn't understand like "frequency" and "pulse length".)

Yeah it's absolutely insane how much foreshadowing exists in the Cosmere.

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