Yvainnie

If Kelsier was Radiant, which order would he be?

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9 minutes ago, BloomAgeOne said:

That's so cool! When I first saw this thread, I thought that it made sense for Vin (and maybe Kelsier) to be Windrunners based on their desire to protect others. I do think though that all of the points about Kelsier as a character do have me convinced, though. He'd make a good Willshaper or Lightweaver (particularly opposite Hoid in terms of the latter).

I kind of want him to become a Lightweaver for that reason. Except my head keeps making him one with a corrupted Spren, like Glys.

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Posted (edited)

So for Vin......Windrunners vs Stonewards:

Quote

 

Windrunner oaths are themed toward protection, particularly defending innocents or those who are unable to protect themselves.

The Windrunners tend to attract “big sibling” types, who seek to protect the defenseless, but also enjoy action and fighting for what they believe in. They’re primarily scouts, though they often work as special forces groups, able to deliver teams of Radiants behind enemy lines for secret missions. They tend to be the most like conventional soldiers, believing in structures of command, team dynamics, and the importance of a squad of brothers and sisters. They often have larger numbers of squires than other Orders and focus more than any other Order on mastering their weapons.

 

Quote

 

Stoneward oaths focus on team dynamics, on learning to work with others, and on being there for those who need them. They put the interests of others before their own, and will not bend their Ideals for the sake of convenience.

Stonewards are the infantry and ground troops of the Radiants and are renowned as their finest soldiers. (A title that, on occasion, the Windrunners dispute.) They tend to attract those who are most interested in warfare, prowess with weapons, or athletics of any sort. They like a challenge, and in times of peace are seen engaging in (and running) various sporting events of both a military and non-military nature. Many enjoy the outdoors, and you’ll find exploration enthusiasts among them, as well as those who just like the fresh air. They tend to be known for their can-do attitudes and for taking on enormous projects (sometimes more than they can handle). However, most agree that the primary attribute of the Stonewards is their dependability. Though sometimes gregarious, they are never flighty. If a Stoneward is your friend, they will be there for you, and that is a core tenet of their Order—to be there when they are needed. Another key attribute is their ability to take a difficult situation with few resources and make something better of it. Though not known as inventors or creators, they are good at improvising solutions to problems in the moment.

 

Both seems too much soldier for Vin, she was more assassins but to be there when needed sounds like her.

Maybe looking into the core of it: is she more "I will protect" or "I will be there when I am needed"?

Spoiler

When I think of her fight with Inquisitors I really see it as the later.

 

Edit: Others fit quite nicely:

Kelsie - Willshaper

Sazed - Edgedancer

Elend - Truthwatcher

Edited by Yvainnie
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I do not think he would be a willshaper. “I will seek freedom” doesn’t really seem like him. Sure he started a revolution, but it wasn’t for freedom really, no matter what he said to the crew. He just wanted revenge. I’d probably put him as a lightweaver but I’ll think on this more.

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5 hours ago, Dannex said:

I do not think he would be a willshaper. “I will seek freedom” doesn’t really seem like him. Sure he started a revolution, but it wasn’t for freedom really, no matter what he said to the crew. He just wanted revenge. I’d probably put him as a lightweaver but I’ll think on this more.

The Radiant Quiz pegs him as a Willshaper too.

Kell definitely seeks personal freedom. He is one of the most autonomous people in the Cosmere. He also likes to travel and explore. He hates being barred or controlled. And he did want to help the Skaa. He also wanted revenge and he wanted to prove he wasn’t beaten. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I can definitely see Kelsier attracting a Reacher. I actually think Willshapers start out a bit more selfish than most other Orders, with its members starting out seeking personal freedom and moving toward seeking freedom for others.

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On 7. 1. 2021 at 2:34 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Radiant Quiz pegs him as a Willshaper too.

Kell definitely seeks personal freedom. He is one of the most autonomous people in the Cosmere. He also likes to travel and explore. He hates being barred or controlled. And he did want to help the Skaa. He also wanted revenge and he wanted to prove he wasn’t beaten. These things are not mutually exclusive.

I can definitely see Kelsier attracting a Reacher. I actually think Willshapers start out a bit more selfish than most other Orders, with its members starting out seeking personal freedom and moving toward seeking freedom for others.

Totally agree. That is why I think Vin would nkt be Willshaper. She did care about protecting much more than freedom.

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On 1/7/2021 at 0:14 AM, Dannex said:

I do not think he would be a willshaper. “I will seek freedom” doesn’t really seem like him. Sure he started a revolution, but it wasn’t for freedom really, no matter what he said to the crew. He just wanted revenge. I’d probably put him as a lightweaver but I’ll think on this more.

I agree more with @Kingsdaughter613. I think Kelsier is pretty close to a textbook Willshaper based on what we know about them.

I will say that there's a strong argument to be made for lightweaver. The secrets thing and how lying can be used to achieve goals. The biggest thing would be the absence of any apparent love of art (even Tien has the little horse carvings). I will also say that if Kelsier would totally be attractive to Cryptics. I do think he's lying to himself. The scene at the end of Secret History were Vin asks him why he tried to overthrow the Lord Ruler points to some juicy possible truths (the idea of "I'm a little bit a psychopath" as a truth makes me laugh). However, his being a successful lightweaver is dependent on his ability to confront the lies he tells himself and accept, which I don't see him in doing any canon so far. 

So while Kell is total Cryptic bait, I don't know if he could actually swear those oaths and mean it. I do think he could be a full Willshaper as he is now. 

The quiz mentions that Willshapers could be "warriors focused freeing those who are captive" which works well with the Skaa situation. I know that is complicated how much of it was selflessness vs. egotism that drove Kelsier to try to free the Skaa but it's inarguable that was a major part of his goals. Yes, he wanted to screw over the Lord Ruler, but he could have done that with the Nobles if he wanted, I believe a part of him genuinely wanted the Skaa to be free. Honestly, that's why I don't think he's a Windrunner. He wasn't really about protecting or leading the skaa (that's Marsh/Elend/Vin) he was about giving them freedom. 

It also says "the Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose". I would say Kelsier fits that to a T. 

Beyond the quiz there's the Gem Archive Quote that's like "can I finally admit that I hate this place? Too many rules" from a Willshaper which is very much a Kell comment.
 

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9 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

I agree more with @Kingsdaughter613. I think Kelsier is pretty close to a textbook Willshaper based on what we know about them.

I will say that there's a strong argument to be made for lightweaver. The secrets thing and how lying can be used to achieve goals. The biggest thing would be the absence of any apparent love of art (even Tien has the little horse carvings). I will also say that if Kelsier would totally be attractive to Cryptics. I do think he's lying to himself. The scene at the end of Secret History were Vin asks him why he tried to overthrow the Lord Ruler points to some juicy possible truths (the idea of "I'm a little bit a psychopath" as a truth makes me laugh). However, his being a successful lightweaver is dependent on his ability to confront the lies he tells himself and accept, which I don't see him in doing any canon so far. 

So while Kell is total Cryptic bait, I don't know if he could actually swear those oaths and mean it. I do think he could be a full Willshaper as he is now. 

The quiz mentions that Willshapers could be "warriors focused freeing those who are captive" which works well with the Skaa situation. I know that is complicated how much of it was selflessness vs. egotism that drove Kelsier to try to free the Skaa but it's inarguable that was a major part of his goals. Yes, he wanted to screw over the Lord Ruler, but he could have done that with the Nobles if he wanted, I believe a part of him genuinely wanted the Skaa to be free. Honestly, that's why I don't think he's a Windrunner. He wasn't really about protecting or leading the skaa (that's Marsh/Elend/Vin) he was about giving them freedom. 

It also says "the Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose". I would say Kelsier fits that to a T. 

Beyond the quiz there's the Gem Archive Quote that's like "can I finally admit that I hate this place? Too many rules" from a Willshaper which is very much a Kell comment.
 

Alright, you’ve convinced me, I guess I can see Kel as a Willshaper. The Gem Archive quote and the Quote about them being Flamboyant are really good. I think I might consider him a Lightweaver more, but Willshaper is a close second. I think that art isn’t a necessary requirement for Lightweavers, wasn’t Elhokar close to bonding one when he died? I don’t think he has any real artsy thing going on. 

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10 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

I agree more with @Kingsdaughter613. I think Kelsier is pretty close to a textbook Willshaper based on what we know about them.

I will say that there's a strong argument to be made for lightweaver. The secrets thing and how lying can be used to achieve goals. The biggest thing would be the absence of any apparent love of art (even Tien has the little horse carvings). I will also say that if Kelsier would totally be attractive to Cryptics. I do think he's lying to himself. The scene at the end of Secret History were Vin asks him why he tried to overthrow the Lord Ruler points to some juicy possible truths (the idea of "I'm a little bit a psychopath" as a truth makes me laugh). However, his being a successful lightweaver is dependent on his ability to confront the lies he tells himself and accept, which I don't see him in doing any canon so far. 

So while Kell is total Cryptic bait, I don't know if he could actually swear those oaths and mean it. I do think he could be a full Willshaper as he is now. 

The quiz mentions that Willshapers could be "warriors focused freeing those who are captive" which works well with the Skaa situation. I know that is complicated how much of it was selflessness vs. egotism that drove Kelsier to try to free the Skaa but it's inarguable that was a major part of his goals. Yes, he wanted to screw over the Lord Ruler, but he could have done that with the Nobles if he wanted, I believe a part of him genuinely wanted the Skaa to be free. Honestly, that's why I don't think he's a Windrunner. He wasn't really about protecting or leading the skaa (that's Marsh/Elend/Vin) he was about giving them freedom. 

It also says "the Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose". I would say Kelsier fits that to a T. 

Beyond the quiz there's the Gem Archive Quote that's like "can I finally admit that I hate this place? Too many rules" from a Willshaper which is very much a Kell comment.
 

Just to note, in SH Kelsier does confront some truths. First, in the Well, he admits that he hasn’t been fully sane since the Pits. That would definitely count as a truth.

Later, during that scene with Vin, he admits that he doesn’t know the answer to her question. I think that admittance would be a truth. I don’t think that was him lying to himself; I think he genuinely doesn’t know. He had many reasons for doing what he did, some selfless, some selfish, and many a mix that he can’t even begin to parse out. I think, for Kelsier, not knowing his own motivations would bother him more than those motivations being selfish.

’I’m a psychopath’ wouldn’t be much of a truth for him though. He’s quite honest - to himself, at least - that he’s not a good man.

And yes, he’s definitely Cryptic bait.

I think Kelsier’s better suited to the Willshapers, but I think he’s more likely to end up bonding a Cryptic. Though I keep imagining a corrupted Cryptic, for some reason.

Kelsier is an artist, btw. He’s a dramatic artist - an actor. Drama is a form of art, and Kelsier is very, very good at it.

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3 minutes ago, Dannex said:

Alright, you’ve convinced me, I guess I can see Kel as a Willshaper. The Gem Archive quote and the Quote about them being Flamboyant are really good. I think I might consider him a Lightweaver more, but Willshaper is a close second. I think that art isn’t a necessary requirement for Lightweavers, wasn’t Elhokar close to bonding one when he died? I don’t think he has any real artsy thing going on. 

Lol thanks.

Like I said I get the lightweaver thing. Honestly, it's 50/50 in my mind. It really would come down to Kell's ability to self reflect and whether he cares more about truth or freedom. It's like how I think young Kaladin could have made an excellent Edgedancer if he'd attracted a cultivationspren but he grew away from that as he got older/bonded with an Honorspren.

The art thing is true (he also doesn't seem to care about architecture/buildings so that's also a point against Willshaper). I will say there I think there are some little hints that Elhokar cares about art, Shallan notes his rooms in Urithuiru well decorated and I think Dalinar (or maybe Kaladin) comments that the palace the shattered palace is really pretty/has great art. It's weak but it's also socially unacceptable for Vorin men to be artists so ¯\_(:/)_/¯. 

7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Just to note, in SH Kelsier does confront some truths. First, in the Well, he admits that he hasn’t been fully sane since the Pits. That would definitely count as a truth.

Later, during that scene with Vin, he admits that he doesn’t know the answer to her question. I think that admittance would be a truth. I don’t think that was him lying to himself; I think he genuinely doesn’t know. He had many reasons for doing what he did, some selfless, some selfish, and many a mix that he can’t even begin to parse out. I think, for Kelsier, not knowing his own motivations would bother him more than those motivations being selfish.

’I’m a psychopath’ wouldn’t be much of a truth for him though. He’s quite honest - to himself, at least - that he’s not a good man.

And yes, he’s definitely Cryptic bait.

I think Kelsier’s better suited to the Willshapers, but I think he’s more likely to end up bonding a Cryptic. Though I keep imagining a corrupted Cryptic, for some reason.

Kelsier is an artist, btw. He’s a dramatic artist - an actor. Drama is a form of art, and Kelsier is very, very good at it.

Your analysis is on the Vin scene is really great. I was wrong about that not being enough, I agree "I don't know why I did it" would be an excellent oath for him considering how much he places on his self-confidence. To that end, I think the theme of his truths would be about self-reflecting on his own mortality. The first would be to accept that he doesn't really know the reasons behind his choices. 

However, I would argue that he's not really honest about his morality, and that's where the 'psychopath' truth comes from. He acknowledges he's not a good man, but to me, that came across more in the sense of not trying to be a noble hero (Kaladin style) and that he would go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals. There's a difference between believing you're an anti-hero vs knowing you're a psychopath (or at least have majorly impaired empathy). He's able to do what no one else does to help the Skaa, but he's able to do that because he doesn't really care (and in some cases prefers) if a lot of people die. That truth would be about acknowledging his own capacity for evil and that he needs to be careful about what ends he picks because his means may lack morals. Maybe also about realizing he needs to trust other people's moral judgment over his own (which he sort of accepts in Mistborn, realizing Vin is more important and right about Elend deserving to live and trusting Marsh to save everyone).  


Thank you for putting it into words! Better suited to Willshapers but more likely a bond a cryptic is exactly what I what I was trying to get it. 

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2 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

Lol thanks.

Like I said I get the lightweaver thing. Honestly, it's 50/50 in my mind. It really would come down to Kell's ability to self reflect and whether he cares more about truth or freedom. It's like how I think young Kaladin could have made an excellent Edgedancer if he'd attracted a cultivationspren but he grew away from that as he got older/bonded with an Honorspren.

The art thing is true (he also doesn't seem to care about architecture/buildings so that's also a point against Willshaper). I will say there I think there are some little hints that Elhokar cares about art, Shallan notes his rooms in Urithuiru well decorated and I think Dalinar (or maybe Kaladin) comments that the palace the shattered palace is really pretty/has great art. It's weak but it's also socially unacceptable for Vorin men to be artists so ¯\_(:/)_/¯. 

Your analysis is on the Vin scene is really great. I was wrong about that not being enough, I agree "I don't know why I did it" would be an excellent oath for him considering how much he places on his self-confidence. To that end, I think the theme of his truths would be about self-reflecting on his own mortality. The first would be to accept that he doesn't really know the reasons behind his choices. 

However, I would argue that he's not really honest about his morality, and that's where the 'psychopath' truth comes from. He acknowledges he's not a good man, but to me, that came across more in the sense of not trying to be a noble hero (Kaladin style) and that he would go to extreme lengths to achieve his goals. There's a difference between believing you're an anti-hero vs knowing you're a psychopath (or at least have majorly impaired empathy). He's able to do what no one else does to help the Skaa, but he's able to do that because he doesn't really care (and in some cases prefers) if a lot of people die. That truth would be about acknowledging his own capacity for evil and that he needs to be careful about what ends he picks because his means may lack morals. Maybe also about realizing he needs to trust other people's moral judgment over his own (which he sort of accepts in Mistborn, realizing Vin is more important and right about Elend deserving to live and trusting Marsh to save everyone).  


Thank you for putting it into words! Better suited to Willshapers but more likely a bond a cryptic is exactly what I what I was trying to get it. 

The way Kelsier thinks about Marsh, that his brother is a good man in way he has never been, leads me to believe that Kelsier is aware of this. Certain WoB indicate that as well; Kelsier knows he likes killing and hurting people , but tries to focus it at a good cause.

I actually think Kell’s Truths would go:

Something honest, but not powerful. The kind of thing he says casually and is startled when it’s accepted.

Something truthful about himself. (I’m not fully sane; I’m not a good man, etc.)

An honest look at himself and his actions (Like Vin makes him do)

The last is pure theory, but my instinct says I’m right: Admitting that his continuing survival isn’t entirely his choice and that Preservation’s dual Commands have a lot to do with it - and he has no idea how much. Which would basically mean abandoning the Survivor persona altogether, and would probably result in the scars on his arms healing.

I honestly think, if I’m correct about five, Kelsier gets stuck on four for a very long time. 

Being a Willshaper would push him to become more selfless. Being a Lightweaver would force Kelsier to become more honest. I actually think the latter is more interesting.

Kelsier wants to be more selfless, and being a Willshaper would enable him to do so without having to abandon or face a lot of the things that he views as part of himself. Essentially, it would help him learn to change his behaviors for the better and, in the process, naturally bettering him.

Being a Lightweaver would force Kelsier to actually change. It would force him to look not at his actions, but his motivations. Not at what he does, but who he is and why he’s doing it. And, as noted above, I think it would force him to acknowledge and abandon his personas. Including the one that’s shaped him for the entire time we’ve travelled with him.

And I think Kelsier moving beyond the Survivor would be very, very interesting. Far more interesting than him learning to be a good man, which is what being a Willshaper would do.

He’s still better suited to being a Willshaper, but he’s more interesting as a Lightweaver, at least to me. But either would be fascinating to see.

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Elend - Windrunner

Sazed - Elsecaller

Vin - Skybreaker

Ham - Stoneward

Breeze - Lightweaver

Kelsier - Lightweaver

Clubs - Stoneward

Spook - Bondsmith

Marsh - Windrunner

Dockson - Elsecaller

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Kelsier - Willshaper, but more likely to end up a Lightweaver. Slight possibility of Dustbringer (Quiz agrees)
Elend - Bondsmith/Truthwatcher/Elsecaller (Gets Edgedancer and Windrunner before Bondsmith, neither of which suit him well. However, all three are pretty close.)

Vin - Windrunner/Lightweaver (Quiz agrees)

Sazed -Truthwatcher/Edgedancer

Tyndwyl - Elsecaller

Marsh - Skybreaker/Stoneward

Breeze - Edgedancer/Lightweaver

Clubs - Willshaper

Spook - Dustbringer

Ham - Truthwatcher 

Dox - Stoneward

Alriane - Willshaper/Lightweaver

Beldre - Lightweaver

Some of these may seem odd, but I think you need to really look at what drives the characters.

Kelsier - personal autonomy, which leads him to the Willshapers. He’s a conman though, so he’s more likely to attract a Cryptic.

Elend - he wants to create a good government, making him a Bondsmith. He’s also a scholar and philosopher, which leads him toward the Truthwatchers and Elsecallers. He’s more Truthwatcher in TFE and more Elsecaller in HoA.

Vin - While she does have Lightweaver traits, especially in TFE, ultimately she moves toward protection. She’s a protector, and by the end of WoA she’s a Windrunner.

Sazed - although he ends up binding things together, that’s not what he naturally is. He’s someone who listens and seeks to recall what was forgotten. He also seeks truth, and keeps it safe for the future. So Edgedancer and Truthwatcher.

Tyndwyl - she’s a lot like Jasnah: a coolheaded, logical, scholar. Elsecaller it is!

Marsh - Marsh is the closest any of the crew gets to a Skybreaker. He has a moral code he holds to strongly. He’s also as stubborn as his little brother, just in a very different way. That said, Marsh is unlikely to attract most Highspren, especially under current circumstances. His unwillingness to surrender, even while mind controlled, would probably lead him to attract a Peakspren.

Breeze - Breeze is an interesting one. The lie that defines his life would attract a Cryptic to him. But the reality of Breeze is a man who understands people. It’s the reason he’s such a good soother - he LISTENS. And, in his own way, helps. He can fit either Order, but I think I prefer him as an Edgedancer.

Clubs - another interesting one. Clubs was working to hide Skaa mistings and was helping runaway Skaa before he ever met Kelsier. He’s always worked towards freedom. And he’s a craftsman, which fits that Order well. Not a typical Willshaper, but the one I think is most likely to attract a Reacher.

Spook - Flame imagery aside... Spook seeks self mastery throughout HoA, almost destroying himself in the process. He’s also the one who wrote a book on Hemalurgy later, long after Kell had gone South and Spook grown up. I think the Ashspren could definitely like him.

Ham - at his soul, Ham is a philosopher. He’d be an unusual Truthwatcher, but the Mistspren don’t seem to care much for ‘typical’ anyway.

Dox - Dox supports the entire crew. He’s the reliable one, the one who makes Kelsier’s crazy plans work. He’s their foundation, which makes him the Stoneward. In the end, Dox will hold the line.

Alriane - Bright, cheerful, Alriane. She’s actually a much more even mix of Willshaper and Lightweaver than Kelsier, and I’m honestly not sure which Order she’d end up in. It could go either way. I think she’s slightly more Willshaper inclined though.

Beldre - the only one I give pure Lightweaver to. Her life is defined by lies and secrets, and that’s what draws a Cryptic toward her. Her truths are spoken quietly, in shy whispers, but they are no less powerful for that.

Now I need to visit the quiz and see how good my guesses are...

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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On 10. 1. 2021 at 7:25 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier - Willshaper, but more likely to end up a Lightweaver. Slight possibility of Dustbringer (Quiz agrees)
Elend - Bondsmith/Truthwatcher/Elsecaller (Gets Edgedancer and Windrunner before Bondsmith, neither of which suit him well. However, all three are pretty close.)

Vin - Windrunner/Lightweaver (Quiz agrees)

Sazed -Truthwatcher/Edgedancer

Tyndwyl - Elsecaller

Marsh - Skybreaker/Stoneward

Breeze - Edgedancer/Lightweaver

Clubs - Willshaper

Spook - Dustbringer

Ham - Truthwatcher 

Dox - Stoneward

Alriane - Willshaper/Lightweaver

Beldre - Lightweaver

 

seems like Lightweaver/Willshaper order would atract a lot of the crew.

I honestly thing Ham would be more Stoneward along with Dox.

But I wonder where are Bondsmiths and other orders? Kelsiers crew was really diverse yet they seem to fit into only few orders. 

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18 minutes ago, Yvainnie said:

seems like Lightweaver/Willshaper order would atract a lot of the crew.

I honestly thing Ham would be more Stoneward along with Dox.

But I wonder where are Bondsmiths and other orders? Kelsiers crew was really diverse yet they seem to fit into only few orders. 

Bondsmiths are special. It's the difference between being a leader and the leader. It's a very meta role. I think Elend and Sazed (and maybe Vin or possibly Kelsier?) all have some level of Bondsmith potential. 

Also, it's a group of thieves and revolutionaries, which is gonna attach lightweavers and willshapers more than anyone else. It's not just about potential and personality, nahal bonding seems to be about your goals in life and how you approach problems (see the Kelsier Willshaper vs. Lightweaver discussion) so the sort of people who join up to use a heist to take the oppressive government are gonna fit best in those two orders. Lots of other characters, like Marsh, Elend, Sazed, or Tyndwyl are def not either of those orders. 

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18 minutes ago, Could Be Fire said:

Bondsmiths are special. It's the difference between being a leader and the leader. It's a very meta role. I think Elend and Sazed (and maybe Vin or possibly Kelsier?) all have some level of Bondsmith potential. 

Also, it's a group of thieves and revolutionaries, which is gonna attach lightweavers and willshapers more than anyone else. It's not just about potential and personality, nahal bonding seems to be about your goals in life and how you approach problems (see the Kelsier Willshaper vs. Lightweaver discussion) so the sort of people who join up to use a heist to take the oppressive government are gonna fit best in those two orders. Lots of other characters, like Marsh, Elend, Sazed, or Tyndwyl are def not either of those orders. 

good point

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I do wonder if this won't end up happening. We know that Cognitive Shadow-like entities can bond spren (Nale, for instance). 

And I do think that he would make a great Lightweaver. Seeing the oaths from him would be amazing. Willshaper is more suited to his actions, let's say, but Lightweaver is what he needs.

Edited by Vissy
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8 hours ago, Vissy said:

I do wonder if this won't end up happening. We know that Cognitive Shadow-like entities can bond spren (Nale, for instance). 

And I do think that he would make a great Lightweaver. Seeing the oaths from him would be amazing. Willshaper is more suited to his actions, let's say, but Lightweaver is what he needs.

I’d disagree. I think Willshapers start out selfish and their oaths push them to become selfless.

Lightweavers by concealing parts of themselves and their Truths push them toward self awareness. 

Kelsier is surprisingly self aware. I think being a Lightweaver would be an easier path (though not easy) for him to walk. Willshaper would be harder because selflessness isn’t something Kelsier is great at. But it would make him a better man.

Lightweaver is more suited to his actions. A conman, a guile hero, an assassin, a thief. Willshaper is better suited to who he is: a fiercely driven man, a survivor, deeply autonomous, who is resolute in his goals.

But if he has the opportunity to bond a Spren, I think it will be a Cryptic. His inherent paradox - a bad man who wants to do good - would make him very interesting to them. A Cryptic wouldn’t make him a better man though. It would make him more aware of his own failings, but Kelsier tends to embrace those and turn them to strengths. “Let then see my weakness and let them see me overcome it.”

Still, it would be cool to see him as a Radiant. Or as a Radiant Spren, lol! Or both! (I wonder if that would work...)

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On 20. 1. 2021 at 0:09 PM, Vissy said:

I do wonder if this won't end up happening. We know that Cognitive Shadow-like entities can bond spren (Nale, for instance). 

And I do think that he would make a great Lightweaver. Seeing the oaths from him would be amazing. Willshaper is more suited to his actions, let's say, but Lightweaver is what he needs.

okay but Lightweaver is about admiting the truth but Kelsier is all about "there is always another secret."

I think that he is Ligthweaver but he is evolving to be Willshaper.

Edited by Yvainnie
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10 hours ago, Yvainnie said:

okay but Lightweaver is about admiting the truth but Kelsier is all about "there is always another secret."

I think that he is Ligthweaver but he is evolving to be Willshaper.

He likes secrets, yes. But he’s surprisingly honest about himself. 

His autonomous nature and his constant striving against his bonds make him very much a Willshaper.

Still more likely to attract a Cryptic though, but better suited to the latter Order.

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On 1/4/2021 at 5:29 PM, Yvainnie said:

I definitely agree, I just see him as Wilshaper because of his free spirit. That was his most prominent feature through all the book.

But a nice point about him dropping masks. 

Maybe it depends on his inner thoughts on whether freedom is most important or his lies and truths. 

Definitely agree with Elend. Good idea there.

Sazed probably fits Elsecaller really well since uniting them was more of his after Mistborn finishing and 

  Reveal hidden contents

him uniting Shards

but I guess Dalinar also got there in time so I don't know if that counts.

Anyways, his scholarly nature would go well with Elsecaller.

 

What about Vin? Still quite a lot of options.....She kinda fits for Stoneward as I see her a bit like their Herald, suffering so others don't have to, I don't know ...........

 

 

 

I see Vin as a Stoneward too, but also as a Bondsmith, because she really liked it when people were honest and kept their promises. I don't know, but thats what i feel

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lets note that the oaths are to build you up, so they mostly would just need to fit the second (first unique) ideal, if they could swear like 2-3 ideals at once, they don't fit that order

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