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Szeth/Moash Parallels and Kaladin's Flute [Discuss]


Sara Stormblessed

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I like this analysis! The flute might serve as a reminder of Derethil's story to Kaladin, and it's possible he'll make the connection himself. And with book five being Szeth's, and he and Kaladin setting off together, I think there's a good chance that we could see him meet Moash!

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Anybody who TL;DRs this is missing out.  Really interesting.  I did not appreciate the level of parallel between the two.

Given that Moash is completely obsessed with Kaladin, who seems ready to head out on a Shinovar adventure with Szeth, it certainly seems plausible there might be an opportunity for some exciting interactions.  I'm looking forward to some fascinating conversations between Szeth, Kaladin and Nightblood... and I'm sure Nightblood might have some entertaining things to say to Moash as well.  Szeth + Nightblood  vs  Moash + Jezrien's honorblade?  Sign me up!

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On 1/3/2021 at 11:01 PM, Taravangian in Training said:

The flute might also make Hoid come to a realisation that his memories have been meddled with. If Kaladin shows up to Hoid with a flute and he can't exactly recall acquiring it or something, he will know his memories have been destroyed.

This is a good call! Perhaps Kaladin will ask for flute lessons and then the missing memories will be revealed! :P I was also thinking about the fact that RoW is very centered around the relationship between music and light. Maybe we are going to see more of that in book 5, and this flute will be involved. 

 

On 1/3/2021 at 9:12 PM, AquaRegia said:

Anybody who TL;DRs this is missing out. 

Thank you! :wub:

On 1/3/2021 at 9:12 PM, AquaRegia said:

I'm looking forward to some fascinating conversations between Szeth, Kaladin and Nightblood... and I'm sure Nightblood might have some entertaining things to say to Moash as well.  Szeth + Nightblood  vs  Moash + Jezrien's honorblade?  Sign me up!

I CANNOT wait for this! We haven't seen Kaladin and Szeth interact since WoR. I am dying to hear about Kaladin from Szeth's point of view. Nightblood of course, is a gem! Maybe (s)he will piece together some of Azure's storyline for Kaladin. Also, would definitely like Nightblood to assess Moash's evil gages.

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On 1/8/2021 at 1:21 PM, Sara Stormblessed said:

I CANNOT wait for this! We haven't seen Kaladin and Szeth interact since WoR. I am dying to hear about Kaladin from Szeth's point of view. Nightblood of course, is a gem! Maybe (s)he will piece together some of Azure's storyline for Kaladin. Also, would definitely like Nightblood to assess Moash's evil gages.

What happens if Nightblood says that Moash isn't evil?

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

What happens if Nightblood says that Moash isn't evil?

I make a ton of memes about how Moash and his fans have been wrongfully scorned by the fandom? :P 

Nah but in all seriousness, I wouldn't be that surprised. For one thing, even if Nightblood was a good indicator of such things, Moash doesn't meet a lot of the qualifiers for evil (which is a very subjective thing anyway) and I think we've also got WoB that Nightblood tends to think of evil as people who want to take him and use him, or sell him, or something. In Moash's current state of mind, I'd be surprised if he cared much at all about stealing Nightblood from Szeth. 

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

What happens if Nightblood says that Moash isn't evil?

I could see that happening, Nightblood says something like "this guy isn't evil, he's just empty".

Although I feel like it's also possible that he says "this guy is so evil, even I'm kinda freaked out" because at this point why not?

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6 minutes ago, AonEne said:

I think we've also got WoB that Nightblood tends to think of evil as people who want to take him and use him

It really comes down to how the sword defines/judges evil.

But I don’t think that’s based so much on whether those people want the sword as it is on whether those people are drawn to use the sword. We have seen Nightblood say it never really liked Nin, which seems to be separate from what it considers evil. And it liked Lift, about whom it basically only knew that she tried to save Szeth. However, it doesn’t consider Szeth evil, despite his history and actions. Could this be because of his self-doubt, self-loathing, and possible desperate need to make up for his past actions?

Most of the people Nightblood considered evil in Warbreaker were those who tried to draw it. Who wanted to destroy as much as it did, or who succumbed to the lure of power. Since Vasher was very much a killer, one assumes he wasn’t considered evil by the sword for a reason other than actions/harm done alone. Ergo, Nightblood considers people evil who succumb to its siren song, and originally, I thought this was a matter of liking/respecting the strong-willed. 

Now, I’m guessing The OP’s point about taking responsibility for one’s own actions might actually be the difference. People who are willing to face up to, take on responsibility for, and potentially even make up for what they’ve done don’t qualify as evil to Nightblood. In that case, Moash very much would, just as he would if evil was judged as someone who wanted power at practically any cost.

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On 1/9/2021 at 6:05 PM, Kyn said:

People who are willing to face up to, take on responsibility for, and potentially even make up for what they’ve done don’t qualify as evil to Nightblood. In that case, Moash very much would, just as he would if evil was judged as someone who wanted power at practically any cost.

I think you mean "In that case, Moash very much would [qualify as evil]". This is a very intriguing point you make. Would you say that "evil" is as subjective as "honor"? I think Taravangian took responsibility for his actions, after a fashion. Is he then not evil? Or is the evilness of Taravangian not the condemnable actions that he acknowledges as necessary evils but the characteristic that Dalinar pointed out: His desire to be glorified as the ONE man who saved the world all by himself? In my opinion, one consistency I am seeing in the Cosmere is that Shards acting alone is bad news bears, regardless of whether they are initially perceived as good or bad. Perhaps Todium will play into that theme. Honestly, having Todd finally take his place as the BBEG is something of a relief, if only because it consolidates the story's villains somewhat. :lol:

It is frightening to think that Nightblood determines someone's evilness based on their self-assessment of responsibility, aka guilt. (I am just now starting Warbreaker, so I'll circle back once I understand Nightblood a bit more.) 

On another note, what would you give to see Zahel beat the snot out of Moash? I think a good old fashion dressing down from his swordmaster may knock some sense into him, and even if it doesn't, it would sure be fun to watch! :P:lol::D

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1 hour ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

Would you say that "evil" is as subjective as "honor"? I think Taravangian took responsibility for his actions, after a fashion. Is he then not evil? Or is the evilness of Taravangian not the condemnable actions that he acknowledges as necessary evils but the characteristic that Dalinar pointed out: His desire to be glorified as the ONE man who saved the world all by himself?

Would Nightblood consider Taravangian evil (assuming “evil” means not taking responsibility for one’s actions)?

Personally, I’d say Taravangian doesn’t actually take responsibility for his actions, in the sense that he doesn’t stop committing atrocities or try to make up for them. He just uses his acceptance of consequences as an excuse to engage in worse actions, since he’s already paying for them. That’s not so much taking responsibility for past misdeeds as it is pretending to, to justify continuing them.

Is (Nightblood’s) evil as subjective as (Honorsprens’) honor?

Moreso, but with less room to adapt, I would guess.

Syl described herself as “…one of the raw powers of creation transformed by collective human imagination into a personification of one of their ideals.” in ch. 31 of Oathbringer, Brandon Sanderson. In her case, Honor. This means that what spren like her are is, in some respect, crowdsourced. Moreso with Honor dead. However, each Honorspren is also an individual, with their own interpretations of what honor is.

One might suppose (and could be wrong to do so, but we’ve got to begin somewhere) that the degree to which evil and honor are similarly subjective – in this specific case, rather than as concepts – would be the degree to which Nightblood resembles the Honorspren. I get the impression Nightblood is like a more extreme, less flexible but also less stable version of them.

Personally, I don’t think Nightblood is as…complete, developed, or personified as the spren. So evil, for Nightblood, is both more subjective (whatever it feels evil is) and more definite (it must be destroyed) than honor is for the Honorspren. Nightblood has to pretend that it knows what evil is, incontrovertibly, so it might not be able to change its mind so easily as the spren at Lasting Integrity…which is kind of horrifying.

I’d guess Nightblood will treat its cobbled-together definition of evil as sacrosanct, precisely because lacking the crowdsourcing or deific origins makes that definition even more questionable. And I’m also guessing Nightblood relies a lot on gut feelings for determining evil, and sees no contradiction between these two things.

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On 1/11/2021 at 11:55 PM, Kyn said:

Personally, I don’t think Nightblood is as…complete, developed, or personified as the spren. So evil, for Nightblood, is both more subjective (whatever it feels evil is) and more definite (it must be destroyed) than honor is for the Honorspren. Nightblood has to pretend that it knows what evil is, incontrovertibly, so it might not be able to change its mind so easily as the spren at Lasting Integrity…which is kind of horrifying.

I’d guess Nightblood will treat its cobbled-together definition of evil as sacrosanct, precisely because lacking the crowdsourcing or deific origins makes that definition even more questionable. And I’m also guessing Nightblood relies a lot on gut feelings for determining evil, and sees no contradiction between these two things.

Below contains information from Warbreaker:

Spoiler

So I finished Warbreaker yesterday, and I have to say that there is definitely a magical element to Nightblood's power over evil. Of course, I don't think we can trust what Nightblood says at all; the sword obviously jumps to bloodthirsty conclusions on many occasions. However, I do think we can trust that mystical power that makes evil people power-hungry to wield the sword and non-evil people nauseous to even be near it. 

It is interesting that Szeth feels neither of these things while carrying Nightblood. In fact, I don't think we see anyone in SA reacting to Nightblood this way. Do you think the sword has a different influence on Roshar? Or is its power fading? If we saw these mystical powers on Roshar, I would 100% rely on Nightblood to tell me whether or not Moash is evil beyond redemption.

 

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58 minutes ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

Do you think the sword has a different influence on Roshar?

I wish I knew! I see signs that it might, but it’s entirely possible the difference has to do entirely with whom we’ve seen it interact with.

Ways/reasons Nightblood might have a different influence on Roshar:

Spoiler

 

One thought is that the way Nightblood’s effects on others seems restrained is because of who’s holding it. In ch. 92 of Oathbringer, Szeth tells Nightblood “Nin said I was never to let you leave my presence.” It’s possible that something about Szeth, such as his soul having been improperly reattached, inhibits Nightblood’s effects on others. Or that any Skybreaker, or even Radiant, might have this effect.

As pure speculation, I wonder if Nightblood’s effects are merely altered by something about Investiture on Roshar, with it being relatively free and as integral and recycled as the hydrological cycle. Like, maybe having some semblance of ambient Investiture is sort of like chaff, so Nightblood’s area effects on wicked people are limited to the person holding it or to when it is fully drawn or something.

 

Of course, what I see as the most likely possibility is that Nightblood has the exact same effect on Roshar as it does in Warbreaker, although perhaps only when fully drawn. And definitely only when hungry. The evidence I’m seeing to support Nightblood still having its mental influence is its effect on Szeth in Oathbringer ch. 118:

Quote

A phantom sense called to him, a desire to continue killing, to revel in the butchery. Szeth rejected it, sick. He had never enjoyed this. He could never enjoy this.

That sounds like a classic Nightblood come-hither whammy nauseating somebody who doesn’t find its siren call of killing alluring.

We could have just missed this effect on others because our perspective characters weren’t looking for it, and we’re not as much in the POV characters’ heads in this series.

And also because Szeth rarely draws Nightblood for enough time to see much of its influence. When he kept it out for a long time in saving Lift, she wouldn’t have been affected by it or likely to (have had time, what with the enemies mostly dying) to notice its effect in the red-eyed. Who were kind of possessed already, which could interfere anyway. There should have been time to see an effect in the Fused who fought/eluded Szeth for awhile even before Nightblood was sated, however.

2 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

 If we saw these mystical powers on Roshar, I would 100% rely on Nightblood to tell me whether or not Moash is evil beyond redemption.

I agree. I don’t trust Nightblood’s thoughts on who is evil or what needs to be slain (it basically assumes that if it killed something, that thing must have been evil). But I have trust in the evil-detecting allure Nightblood has. At least, in the likelihood that those who are tempted have some specific type of (bloodlusting) weakness/flaw, and those who are not can resist Nightblood’s destructive desires. Which isn’t at all the same thing as believing one group is evil and the other, not.

But I’m not sure we need their interaction to think Moash would be claimed by Nightblood. The man was driven by the sole emotion of vengeance, giving all others over to Odium. That seems pretty clearcut as just what Nightblood’s allure would call to, and drive to a killing spree.

The likelihood of Moash being judged as evil by Nightblood only goes up if denying responsibility and refusing to turn from doing harm is part of the definition for evil. Although that guess on my part was based on the Derethil story the OP was looking at, even if it’s wrong, I doubt a Moash/Nightblood interaction would clear Moash. Him choosing to give up all responsibility to a dead emperor rather than face any culpability or hint of being wrong in what he had done doesn’t make it sound like he has much grounds for resisting Nightblood’s call – since he has neither a strong will nor any degree of revulsion for killing/destruction.

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8 hours ago, Kyn said:

Of course, what I see as the most likely possibility is that Nightblood has the exact same effect on Roshar as it does in Warbreaker, although perhaps only when fully drawn. And definitely only when hungry. The evidence I’m seeing to support Nightblood still having its mental influence is its effect on Szeth in Oathbringer ch. 118:

Another point is that Navani feels nauseous around Szeth.

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12 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

Below contains information from Warbreaker:

  Hide contents

I do think we can trust that mystical power that makes evil people power-hungry to wield the sword and non-evil people nauseous to even be near it. 

It is interesting that Szeth feels neither of these things while carrying Nightblood. In fact, I don't think we see anyone in SA reacting to Nightblood this way. Do you think the sword has a different influence on Roshar? Or is its power fading? If we saw these mystical powers on Roshar, I would 100% rely on Nightblood to tell me whether or not Moash is evil beyond redemption.

 

I disagree that we HAVE NOT seen this on Roshar: during the Skybreaker training test in Marabethia, the one which involved rounding up escaped prisoners, we see one of the escapees reacting to Nightblood EXACTLY the same way as the jailers in Vasher's first scene in Warbreaker.  Instead of running for safety, he greedily reaches for the sword.  I recall, upon reading it for the first time, thinking "yup, that's what Nightblood does all right."  And this happens when the sword is fully sheathed.

It's possible that this effect manifests most strongly (or only) when Nightblood is out of the holder's hands... but it's clearly operating on Roshar.

I also think it's possible that Moash would NOT be drawn to Nightblood.  He seems to be seeking emotional oblivion - an end to his pain by breaking all bonds and forsaking all feeling.  He may not have any lust/desire for whatever Nightblood seems to offer.

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12 hours ago, Kyn said:

I wish I knew! I see signs that it might, but it’s entirely possible the difference has to do entirely with whom we’ve seen it interact with.

Ways/reasons Nightblood might have a different influence on Roshar:

 

2 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I disagree that we HAVE NOT seen this on Roshar: during the Skybreaker training test in Marabethia, the one which involved rounding up escaped prisoners, we see one of the escapees reacting to Nightblood EXACTLY the same way as the jailers in Vasher's first scene in Warbreaker.  Instead of running for safety, he greedily reaches for the sword.  I recall, upon reading it for the first time, thinking "yup, that's what Nightblood does all right."  And this happens when the sword is fully sheathed.

Not only the scene in Oathbringer, we have the first indication that Nightblood's "test" still functions on Roshar back in Edgedancer

Spoiler

Edgedancer, Chapter 15:

Quote

 

Then the assassin passed by. He stopped, then looked in her direction, hand resting on his sword hilt.

Lift’s breath caught. Don’t become awesome. Don’t become awesome! If she used her powers in these shadows, she’d glow and he’d spot her for sure.

All she could do was crouch there as the assassin narrowed his eyes—strangely shaped, like they were too big or something. He reached to a pouch at his belt, then tossed something small and glowing into the hallway. A sphere.

Lift panicked, uncertain if she should scramble away, grow awesome, or just remain still. Fearspren boiled up around her, lit by the sphere as it rolled near her, and she knew—meeting the assassin’s gaze—that he could see her.

He pulled his sword out of the sheath a fraction of an inch. Black smoke poured from the blade, dropping toward the floor and pooling at his feet. Lift felt a sudden, terrible nausea.

The assassin studied her, then snapped the sword into its sheath again. Remarkably, he left, following after the other two, that faint afterimage trailing behind him.

 

 

If I recall correctly, For Nightblood's test, without the blade partially drawn, the effect is muted (Ref 1), repeated exposure minimizes the effect, and if Nightblood has fed off of somebody and they survived, then they are immune to the effect after that (Ref 2). Which would explain why Szeth doesn't remark on the effect much, especially after drawing Nigthblood in the Skybreaker trial. 

1: In Warbreaker, we see that with the sheath on Nightblood can attract "evil," but we only see the reverse nausea effect if the blade is exposed:

Spoiler

Warbreaker Ch 21

Quote

 

Vasher whipped out Nightblood with his other hand.

Yes! the sword thought.

Vasher didn’t draw the sword. He simply tossed it forward. The blade skidded against the floor, then came to rest before the three men. One of the group froze, looking down at the sword, transfixed. He reached out tentatively, eyes awed.

The other two took off running, yelling about an intruder.

Blast! Vasher thought. He yanked the rope, knocking the entangled servant off of his feet again. As the servant tried to stumble to his feet, Vasher dashed forward and wrapped the rope around the man’s hands and body. To his side, the remaining servant ignored both Vasher and his friend. This man picked up Nightblood, eyes alight. He undid the snap on the hilt, moving to pull the sword.

When he had barely gotten a thin sliver of blade free, a dark, fluidlike smoke began to stream out. Some dripped to the ground; other tendrils of it snaked out and wrapped around the man’s arm, drawing the color from his skin.

 

The guards running away did not seem nauseated...though the gaurd that picked up Nightblood was clearly attracted...


Warbreaker Ch 35

Quote

 

The man, Vasher, stepped forward. He undid the clasp on that deep, black sword, and Vivenna felt a strange nausea strike her. A thin wisp of black smoke began to curl up from the blade.

Vasher approached, backlit by the lantern, the sheathed tip of the sword dragging along the floor behind him. Then he dropped the sword to the floor in front of Vivenna.

“Pick it up,” he said.

She untensed slightly, looking up, though she still huddled in the corner. She felt tears on her cheeks.

“Pick up the sword, Princess.” She had no training with weapons, but maybe…She reached for the sword, but felt her nausea grow far stronger. She groaned, her hand twitching as it approached the strange black blade.

She shied away.

“Pick it up!” Vasher bellowed.

She complied with a gagged cry of desperation, grabbing the weapon, feeling a terrible sickness travel like a wave up her arm and into her stomach. She found herself ripping away her gag with desperate fingers.

Hello, a voice said in her head. Would you like to kill someone today?

She dropped the horrid weapon and fell to her knees, retching onto the floor. 

 

Vivenna was clearly nauseated as soon as the blade was exposed (as was Lift in the quote above)

 

 

2: This was a WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7404

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21 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

Below contains information from Warbreaker:

  Reveal hidden contents

So I finished Warbreaker yesterday, and I have to say that there is definitely a magical element to Nightblood's power over evil. Of course, I don't think we can trust what Nightblood says at all; the sword obviously jumps to bloodthirsty conclusions on many occasions. However, I do think we can trust that mystical power that makes evil people power-hungry to wield the sword and non-evil people nauseous to even be near it. 

It is interesting that Szeth feels neither of these things while carrying Nightblood. In fact, I don't think we see anyone in SA reacting to Nightblood this way. Do you think the sword has a different influence on Roshar? Or is its power fading? If we saw these mystical powers on Roshar, I would 100% rely on Nightblood to tell me whether or not Moash is evil beyond redemption.

 

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

I think Nightblood has developed significantly since Warbreaker. In Warbreaker, he seemed to have the intelligence of a very small child or a puppy. There are scenes when Vasher is brooding over something and Nightblood is just completely oblivious to his emotions.

From the prologue:

Quote

I did very well today, a voice said in his mind.

Vasher didn’t respond to the sword.

I killed them all, Nightblood continued. Aren’t you proud of me?

Vasher picked up the weapon, accustomed to its unusual weight, and carried it in one hand. He recovered his duffel and slung it over his shoulder.

I knew you’d be impressed, Nightblood said, sounding satisfied.

Vasher is clearly unappreciative or at least indifferent, and Nightblood doesn't pick up on this at all, instead just substituting what he thinks Vasher should feel. By the time RoW rolls around, Nightblood is very different:

Quote

Time to make another round of the clearing. The child's laughter grew louder but Szeth found it painful to hear. He winced as the boy jumped up on a rock, then leaped for his granduncle to catch him. And Szeth... if Szeth moved too quickly, he could catch sight of his own frail soul, attached incorrectly to his body, trailing his motions like a glowing afterimage.

Why do you hurt? the sword asked. 

Nightblood notices, of his own accord, that Szeth is upset and asks him about it. Clearly he has grown and changed since Warbreaker, so the way Nightblood interacts with others should also change. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I found this post on Reddit:

Quote

[Rhythm of War - Ch 105-106] I noticed a potential callback to The Way of Kings Prologue

“Don’t ruin this,” he told the gathered Fused. “I need to go kill a queen.”

Rhythm of War - Chapter 105: Children of Passions

And:

At the far end of the hallway, a figure in a black uniform walked slowly forward. A Shardblade appeared in his hand. The assassin’s Blade.

Moash had returned.

Rhythm of War - Chapter 106: A Hundred Discordant Rhythms

These really connect with TWoK prologue:

Szeth-son-son-Vallano, Truthless of Shinovar, wore white on the day he was to kill a king...

Way of Kings - Prolouge: To Kill

Szeth kills a King, while Moash goes to kill her wife, a Queen.

Szeth wears white, Moash wears black.

Both carry Jezrien's Honorblade.

Both are working, in a way, for Odium.

Szeth calls himself now Szeth-son-Honor, and Moash has a Connection to Odium (a bit of a stretch).

So, here is my twist to the famous quote:

Vyre-son-Odium, traitor of Humankind, wore black on the day he was to kill a queen.

Link: [Rhythm of War - Ch 105-106] I noticed a potential callback to The Way of Kings Prologue : Stormlight_Archive (reddit.com)

 

Chills. Mysterious things are certainly afoot with these Moash/Szeth parallels. 

 

Edited by Sara Stormblessed
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21 hours ago, Sara Stormblessed said:

So I found this post on Reddit:

 

Chills. Mysterious things are certainly afoot with these Moash/Szeth parallels. 

 

You know, I've thought that Moash can no longer function as Kaladin's antagonist/foil, narratively speaking Kaladin has surpassed him. I thought this would mean Moash has no choice but to change and develop his own arc, but maybe instead he'll just become Szeth's personal foil/antagonist. Blindly following orders because at this point there's just nothing left for him. I could actually see this ending similarly to Szeth's arc in WoR, with Moash giving up mid fight, because what's even left for him at this point. 

Edited by LuckyJim
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