Mzuka

Kalak explained what's happening with Ba-Ado-Mishram and the deadeyes

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This seems so plausible that I almost think you have some insider information... 

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This is amazing. It opens so many ways to think about.

So let me see. If the Heralds die when they are with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms aka no bodies and no Oathpact/ties to Honors. And Jezrien is completely gone.

The spren, that too are cognitive entities, when the oaths get broken they do not die (as they retain some personality according to Maya's example). So it could mean that they lose Connection with Honor to the Spiritual instead, perhaps forming with Odium/BAM. And they have on the Physical in the form of the shardblades, right? Or that does not count because they have no mental presence there?

 

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Oh no...

This is what Ishar’s trying to figure out, isn’t it.

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I was searching for BAM WoBs and I fell on some very interesting ones.

Quote

LewsTherinTelescope

Does "Ba-Ado-Mishram" mean "child of the light of Cultivation and Honor"?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, but you're doing a pretty good job picking apart the linguistics of that.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 22, 2020)
Quote

Argent

Ba-Ado-Mishram. Just the name sounds a little bit like a Shin name to me because they're all 'Somebody son Somebody' or 'Somebody daughter Somebody', was she a Shin woman at one point?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that cause that comes down to, they even asked this in Oathbringer, were they people or not? 

Argent

'Cause one of them says they needed to be made and then unmade. 

Brandon Sanderson

Mmhmm, so I do not feel I've explicitly said either way.

Argent

And you haven't, no.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)
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What if Honor and Cultivation had ten children, nine of which are now Unmade, with the last remaining one being the Sibling? 

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10 hours ago, Andy92 said:

What if Honor and Cultivation had ten children, nine of which are now Unmade, with the last remaining one being the Sibling? 

I feel like if that were the case, Stormfather or the Sibling would have mentioned it, and there would be other clues or something pointing to it.  That seems like a very significant detail that would be difficult to forget over the ages.

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6 hours ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I feel like if that were the case, Stormfather or the Sibling would have mentioned it, and there would be other clues or something pointing to it.  That seems like a very significant detail that would be difficult to forget over the ages.

It’s more of a tinfoil hat idea at this point yeah lol. I do think what was happening to the Sibling in RoW would have turned them into an Unmade if Kaladin and Navani had not intervened. That lead me to believe the Unmade all used to be similar spren of some sort on the “good” side of the spectrum before being corrupted. Whether or not they were all on the same level as the Sibling or not, who knows.

The other reason I thought about this was since Brandon has been pretty coy recently about the whole “there are only 3 Bondsmith spren” thing. Now it seems more like “historically there weren’t more than 3 at one time” which sounds like there are other spren besides the Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and the Sibling that can be bonded by a Bondsmith. Maybe the Unmade used to be bonded by Bondsmiths long ago as well. 

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Excellent thoughts.

Somehow I feel like the fact that so many spren are emotion spren, and thus logically are relevant to Odium, is tied to this.  

Also, this line of thought needs to be compared and contrasted to Sja-anat's "corrupting" spren.  I'm interested in hearing thoughts in that regard.  Here is a relevant passage from the book:

Quote

Humans called them "corrupted," but she hated this term.  She did not corrupt.  She Enlightened them, showing the that a different path was possible.  Did not the humans revere Transformation--the ability of all beings to become someone new, someone better--as a core ideal of their religion?  Yet they grew angry when she let spren change?

 

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Hmmm, another thought.  Since Taln and Ash are expected to be major PoV characters in the back 5 books, it seems reasonable that if your reasoning is correct, we can expect that book 5 will feature the reinstatement of Ba-Ado-Mishram and that act will help Taln and Ash with their supernatural mental maladies, in addition to possibly restoring the deadeyes.  

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1 hour ago, Serack said:

Excellent thoughts.

Somehow I feel like the fact that so many spren are emotion spren, and thus logically are relevant to Odium, is tied to this.  

Also, this line of thought needs to be compared and contrasted to Sja-anat's "corrupting" spren.  I'm interested in hearing thoughts in that regard.  Here is a relevant passage from the book:

 

I think there's too much being hung on Rayse-Odium taking away Moash's pain here. Odium isn't the emotion Shard. Exactly the opposite. Hate pushes out all emotion. If you've ever felt true hate toward someone or something; seeing red, screaming, strangling hatred, you'll recognize the inability to feel anything else but that hatred.  THAT'S what Odium is and THAT'S what Odium uses to make Moash "feel no pain". Odium is the Hate that strangles all other feelings and leaves a Void.

I contend that the mindless Unmade were groups of emotion spren that were twisted by Odium and eventually coalesced into singular entities (we don't see party spren or war spren anywhere because Odium "unmade" that type of spren and they coagulated into what we now know as Ashertmarn and Nergaoul) that, rather than being pulled toward the thing they represent, cause a twisted version of it. The more sapient Unmade, like Sja Anat, were singular spren like Stormfather and the Sibling that were corrupted by Odium in the same way Raboniel attempted to corrupt the Sibling.

I say all that because Sja Anat isn't only of Odium. Just as Ashertmarn and Nergaoul still represent the thing they always did only in a twisted manner, Sja Anat is still what she was before Odium changed her. She performed spren maintenance or managed spren Identity, somehow. Now she changes their Identity to one more in line with Odium's power.

Ba-Ado-Mishram should also be whatever it was before it was Unmade. If BAM was able to Connect to the singers in a way that allowed them to use Voidlight and take forms of power, they would also be able to Connect or change Connection of other things in other ways. If Sja Anat is the corrupted "godess" of Identity, BAM would be the corrupted "godess" of Connection.

After a couple thousand years of stewing on Braize, Odium got antsy and told BAM to raise a ruckus. This was a big mistake as BAM created Connections that further tied Odium to Roshar...and tied Roshar to Odium. When BAM was captured, the parts of Roshar she tied to Odium were left without a Connection. When the Everstorm was summoned and Odium returned, many of these things came to life. Parshman and, it seems, Chasmfiends among them. Their Connections were restored. Why not deadeyes?

I think you're right that the additional Connection that Odium brings is partially why Adolin is able to affect Maya. It can't be the first time a shardbearer treated his shard like a living thing. People treat their weapons like true living partners all of the time in the real world.

<Train of thought hits dead end>

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On 12/30/2020 at 2:14 PM, Leuthie said:

we don't see party spren or war spren anywhere because Odium "unmade" that type of spren and they coagulated into what we now know as Ashertmarn and Nergaoul

I really like this theory! We do see passionspren which are associated with the thrill/strong feelings but there is a distinct absence. 

It might be related how Honor/Cultivation created the "highspren" like why are Ash/Ink spren are sentient but Flame/Logic spren aren't? There doesn't appear to be a pattern in the types of spren that are true/higher in terms of type. Maybe Honor and Cultivation directly uplifted 10 classes of normal spren to form the Nahal bond. 

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On 12/29/2020 at 0:04 PM, adouloumis said:

This is amazing. It opens so many ways to think about.

So let me see. If the Heralds die when they are with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms aka no bodies and no Oathpact/ties to Honors. And Jezrien is completely gone.

The spren, that too are cognitive entities, when the oaths get broken they do not die (as they retain some personality according to Maya's example). So it could mean that they lose Connection with Honor to the Spiritual instead, perhaps forming with Odium/BAM. And they have on the Physical in the form of the shardblades, right? Or that does not count because they have no mental presence there?

 

Yeah so I think what's happening with the deadeyes is comparable to what was wrong with:

Spoiler

The seons in Elantris. They were cut off from their Connection to Devotion until Raoden added the line to the ground.

I think this is why adding gemstones to Shardblades partially revived them (remember BAM is trapped in a gem) - as it allowed some partial Connection.

I also think we as an audience/Adolin misinterpreted what Maya said at the end of RoW. When Adolin asks her why they made this sacrifice she says "To save..." and then runs out of breath. Adolin assumes she was meant to say it was to save them from something worse, but I believe she was going name drop a person. The most obvoius candidate is BAM, but it could be someone else/ a group of people - perhaps the rest of the spren?

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52 minutes ago, Windshaper said:

Yeah so I think what's happening with the deadeyes is comparable to what was wrong with:

  Reveal hidden contents

The seons in Elantris. They were cut off from their Connection to Devotion until Raoden added the line to the ground.

I think this is why adding gemstones to Shardblades partially revived them (remember BAM is trapped in a gem) - as it allowed some partial Connection.

I also think we as an audience/Adolin misinterpreted what Maya said at the end of RoW. When Adolin asks her why they made this sacrifice she says "To save..." and then runs out of breath. Adolin assumes she was meant to say it was to save them from something worse, but I believe she was going name drop a person. The most obvoius candidate is BAM, but it could be someone else/ a group of people - perhaps the rest of the spren?

Building on this, another possibility is that Ishar and Nale were right about Radiants bringing back Desolations. Perhaps if the Radiants had not abandoned their oaths their Connection to BAM would have created a backdoor for the Fused to leave Braize and come to Roshar (they are Connected to her through Odium, and she to Roshar). By breaking their oaths the Radiants may have wounded Roshar and even Honor, but they could also have prevented the Fused from Connecting to Roshar through BAM.

Ishar may have advised on this course of action in the first place, and it would explain why they maintained it over the millennia...it could even be why the Skybreakers were the safest order to remain as they seem the most cold/emotionless of the orders (and thus maybe least Connected to Odium). All spren have traditionally been some mix of Cultivation and Honor.

 

 The Everstorm may be proof that Ishar was right, as Rayse implies to Dalinar that it is not of his making (or at least in his direct control). We know it starts in the east, somewhere beyond Shinovar, which is also a good candidate for where BAM is being held.

 

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We should also keep in mind that Odium -is- a part of Roshar, now. And the power of Odium is not inherently evil. What Sja-Anat (and the other Unmade) are doing is, in my opinion, necessary for the survival and future of Roshar itself, because Odium's investiture needs a way to inhabit the system and help it - and through someone like Sja-Anat who changes spren to function more in line with Odium's intent (but still separate from it), this goal is served. The Unmade, at least some of them, -have- to be free. I suspect them being free will help everyone, not just Odium. Aside from maybe something like the Thrill.

Edited by Vissy
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With anti-light, their is the possibility of remaking the Unmade. They were made, then they were unmade, and then they were reforged. Sounds like something Dalinar would do. Especially if Navani and the sibling get in on this. Also, just had a thought. Can Taravangian become a Radiant. Like if he really wanted to could he bond a spren of Honor or Cultivation and thus help him keep a handle on the power of his shard?

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1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

With anti-light, their is the possibility of remaking the Unmade. They were made, then they were unmade, and then they were reforged. Sounds like something Dalinar would do. Especially if Navani and the sibling get in on this. 

I don't think the Unmade can exist without the Voidlight that now partially composes them. Remove the Voidlight and they die. Raboniel was replacing part of the Sibling with Voidlight. She didn't get far enough for the process to be permanent (not enough of the Sibling was replaced by Voidlight). I think the "remake" the unmade would be to replace the Voidlight parts with the original Investiture, not just remove the Voidlight.

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Also, just had a thought. Can Taravangian become a Radiant. Like if he really wanted to could he bond a spren of Honor or Cultivation and thus help him keep a handle on the power of his shard?

The power Taravangian holds is so much more vast than even a Bondspren like Stormfather that the bond would do nothing, if even possible. Todium would have to pick up another Shard if he wants to temper the Hate that way.

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@Leuthie Naturally, you would need to add back in other light. I forgot to mention that. So it would be a bit like an operation. Being able to do it without killing the unmade would likely be difficult. And as far as Taravangian goes, I think you are correct. I was just thinking of how you could strengthen the vessel. 

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