theory Some Notes on the Recreance [Discuss]

[LewsTherinTelescope]

So, there has been a lot of debate about the Recreance recently. I feel there are a few specific things we can say are very likely, however, and I'm making this post to sum those up.

TL;DR:

The Recreance likely occurred on a single day — or at least during a very small time period — shortly after the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram, and during or soon after the abandonment of Urithiru, which had already begun to fail before said imprisonment.

The Feverstone Keep vision is accurate:

Spoiler

• We actually have a WoB directly stating this.[1] This should be enough, but WoBs have proven... unreliable, as of late. However, I think other evidence points to it as well.
• The enemy was pushing towards Feverstone Keep[2], which is consistent with them coming from the fighting nearby in the vision at that location.[3]
• Honor refers to the Knights in the vision as "the first"[15], which indicates to me that they were in fact actual Knights.

I would say that the Knights and location being real backs up the WoB.

Mishram's capture happened immediately before the Recreance:

Spoiler

• The Radiants were fighting soon before the Feverstone Keep vision.[3]
• We also know that the fighting was intense at the time of the Recreance.[4]

We know that the singers were pushing towards Feverstone Keep[2], so I think it is fair to say that they are the "devils" mentioned, and are those whom the "particularly intense" fighting was against. And while there may be a gap between the imprisonment of Mishram and the Feverstone Keep vision, due to them not having the instant communication of spanreeds yet, I imagine "the enemy all just stopped fighting" is news that would be sent very quickly to the keep they are currently defending, so it can't be too long.

Moat of the Knights abandoned their oaths on the same day:

Spoiler

• The Knights were attacked and many killed by a force of around two thousand after their withdrawal, for abandoning their Ideals during the fighting.[16]
  • If it was a drawn-out series of events, then most of the former Knights would likely not all be together to be attacked at once.
• We are told that the honorspren all died in one day.[5]
  • While you could argue they could be wrong, I would point out there are spren still around who were alive back then, and would know when the rest of the spren died, even if there were not honorspren witnesses.[6][7] It is also worth noting that these witnesses watched the Recreance, and had no inkling that the spren were involved in the decision, which would be rather odd were it a lengthy process.[6]

Additionally, some of the other orders would have had to abandon their Ideals around the same time, as Maya did not expect to become a deadeye, which seems strange if deadeyes from the other Radiant spren were around.[8]

Urithiru was likely "failing" before Mishram's capture (though this is not certain):

Spoiler

• The Sibling refers to "banishing men from these halls", which sounds intentional.[9]
• The Sibling says humans left due to the Sibling's issues with them in some way.[10]
• There were Windrunners present[11][12], and as established above, the Windrunners abandoned their oaths on the same day as one another and very soon after Mishram's imprisonment.
• The tower was failing before it was abandoned.[13]
  • This last one has led some to believe that the abandonment of Urithiru happened after Mishram's imprisonment. However, the Sibling twice attributes the abandonment of the tower to disagreements between the Sibling and the Radiants, not the capture of Mishram. As such, I think it is instead proof that the tower shutting down was an effect of these disagreements (the "falling-out" the Sibling mentions).

There is, however, a line that makes things complicated, where the Sibling says the tower stopped working after Mishram's capture.[14] This line is... confusing. I have tried to put it together with the other lines, and whichever way I try and fit it (both assuming the abandonment of Urithiru was prior to her imprisonment and assuming it was after), it just doesn't make sense when combined with the rest. The only thing I can think of is that the Sibling was withdrawing and things were breaking, and then Mishram's capture actually forcibly shut everything else down. But this is unsatisfying to me, and I think this line is the greatest counterargument against this section.

Tanavast's death was post-Recreance, but was a protracted event

Confirmed by WoB[17]

Either the enslavement of the broken singers didn't happen for decades, or the Recreance was decades apart from BAM's capture

Spoiler

This one's kind of weird to me, but the Recreance and the enslavement of the singers are decades apart.[18] The only real possibilities I see are the ones outlined in the section header. The things in the other sections make me lean the former, however.

References:

Spoiler

1. Skyward release party, entry 70 (#e11732)

   Spoiler

   R'Shara

   Is the vision that Dalinar of the Recreance; is that how it actually happened?

   Brandon Sanderson

   You can assume that even though it was a recreation, that it is accurate.

2. Oathbringer chapter 84 epigraph

   Spoiler

   The enemy makes another push toward Feverstone Keep. I wish we knew what it was that had them so interested in that area. Could they be intent on capturing Rall Elorim?

   —From drawer 19-2, third topaz

3. The Way of Kings chapter 52

   Spoiler

   “But why?” the darkeyed officer demanded. “Why are Radiants coming here? They should be fighting the devils on the front lines!”

4. Words of Radiance chapter 41 epigraph

   Spoiler

   This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at this time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal...

5. Rhythm of War chapter 87

   Spoiler

   “The Ancient Daughter was in a catatonic state,” Amuna said, “and was spared. But every other honorspren—every single one—had answered the call of the Radiants during the False Desolation. Can you understand the magnitude of that tragedy, Highprince Adolin? The murder of an entire species, all in one day? Absolute extermination, performed by the most intimate of friends?”

6. Rhythm of War chapter 87

   Spoiler

   “Honored One, I was alive when men betrayed us. Unlike the honorspren, my kind were not so foolish as to assign all as Radiant spren. We lost over half our numbers, but some of us watched from outside.”

7. Oathbringer chapter 107

   Spoiler

   “Never mind what the Radiants did to Spark’s friends, never mind that organized devotion to Honor is what killed hundreds of ashspren in the first place.”

8. Rhythm of War chapter 94
   Spoiler

   “Did you know the full cost, Maya?” Adolin asked, the question suddenly occurring to him. “Did you and your Radiants know that you would become deadeyes?”

   Adolin felt Maya searching deep, pushing through her exhaustion, seeking … memories that were difficult for her to access. Eventually, she shook her head and whispered, “Pain. Yes. Death? No. Maybe.”

9. Rhythm of War chapter 40
   Spoiler

   Long ago, before I banished men from these halls, my last Bondsmith made me something.

10. Rhythm of War chapter 69
    Spoiler

    There was talk of installing others farther away, but my Bondsmith did not have the resources—my falling-out with the humans was driving them away.

11. Oathbringer chapter 74 epigraph
    Spoiler

    Today, I leaped from the tower for the last time. I felt the wind dance around me as I fell all the way along the eastern side, past the tower, and to the foothills below. I’m going to miss that.

    —From drawer 10-1, sapphire

12. Oathbringer chapter 86 epigraph
    Spoiler

    My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don’t think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?

    —From drawer 10-12, sapphire

13. Oathbringer chapter 69 epigraph
    Spoiler

    The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower’s functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists.

    —From drawer 1-1, second zircon

14. Rhythm of War chapter 49
    Spoiler

    I don’t know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working. My father, Honor, should have been able to help me, but he was losing his mind. And he soon died …

15. The Way of Kings chapter 52
    Spoiler

    “They are the first,” the Radiant said, turning to Dalinar. Dalinar recognized the depth of that voice. It was the voice that always spoke to him in these visions. “They were the first, and they were also the last.”

    “Is this the Day of Recreance?” Dalinar asked.

    “These events will go down in history,” the Radiant said. “They will be infamous. You will have many names for what happened here.”

16. Words of Radiance chapter 41 epigraph
    Spoiler

    ...and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership...

17. Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)
    Spoiler

    Questioner

    Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

    Questioner

    Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

18. Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)
    Spoiler

    Questioner

    How close is the enslavement of the parshmen to the Recreance, timeline-wise? 

    Brandon Sanderson

    Um, fairly close, as timeline issues go, but still many decades.

    Questioner

    Did it play any kind of factor in the decision?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Absolutely. But we're not talking about it happening next year. But it was a factor, how about that?

Edited April 23, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope
Fixed wording

[Darth_Hel]

Overall, a good write-up, but knowing Sanderson's habit of always having more secrets in plain sight I'm not sure we can just assume the devils are the singers. What if something that happened ended with Spren pulled fully into the physical realm. These would probably look like devils to people with their strangely human inhuman looks. Might explain what Ishar is up to, even in his insanity he might be trying to figure out exactly what effect was causing it. 

Not saying there's any evidence there, just been thinking recently about various information and assumptions that people make that perhaps they're meant to make but its a misdirect.

[+Oltux72]

The deep problem is to me that we are accepting the official reason for the Recreance without questioning. And that is just not plausible. People who have been fighting a war for years just do not all react in panic to the destruction of the enemy. Many, possibly even a majority, would have reacted quite simply with relief and even joy to know that this proble is solved once and for all.
And some among the orders would have refused. What would the Windrunners who dropped their Shards do against those who refused? And there really is no reason they would have to do it simutaneously. They could have drawn straws and let a few unfortunates try it out.

No. It really looks like the Recreance was not purely a reaction, but a planned action with a desired effect, that is there was a reason rooted in the oaths or the nature of Roshar that meant that they had to take the risk under all conditions and that had an aim. Logically we may assume that they wanted to undo something that happened due to the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram, yet for some reason just releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram was not an option either.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

49 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

People who have been fighting a war for years just do not all react in panic to the destruction of the enemy. Many, possibly even a majority, would have reacted quite simply with relief and even joy to know that this proble is solved once and for all.

• They find out the people they're fighting are the native people of the land
• They find out that their powers destroyed a planet before
• Their god is ranting and raving and promising that they'll do it again
• His limits on their powers are failing
• Their home starts to break down and they have to leave
• They seem to have injured its spren in some way
• The organization built to keep things in check starts to fall apart
• God is being killed by an evil god
• They accidentally essentially lobotomize a whole species
• Their spren may also have felt some bad effects, based on what the Sibling says

I feel like all of that combined is more than enough to cause this, and especially for orders like the Windrunners. It wasn't just a single event that caused it, it was a series of "oh crem" moments and doubts, the slow collapse and corruption of the orders, and their god raving while dying, culminating in the unintentional genocide of an entire race of I imagine hundreds of thousands to millions.

49 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And there really is no reason they would have to do it simutaneously.

I would imagine it was more organized among smaller groups than the order as a whole, but that them all being caused by the same event meant they were extremely close in time to one another.

49 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They could have drawn straws and let a few unfortunates try it out.

They had no reason to expect anything special would happen, as far as I know.

Edited December 28, 2020 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+Child of Hodor]

@LewsTherinTelescope Great post! I was thinking of starting a thread on the Recreance timeline after the latest sharcast, but wanted to check if anyone else has. You've summed it up nicely. 

Quote

The Feverstone Keep vision is accurate:

• We actually have a WoB directly stating this.[1] This should be enough, but WoBs have proven... unreliable, as of late. However, I think other evidence points to it as well.
• The enemy was pushing towards Feverstone Keep[2], which is consistent with them coming from the fighting nearby in the vision at that location.[3]
• Honor refers to the Knights in the vision as "the first"[15], which indicates to me that they were in fact actual Knights.

I'm absolutely with you on this first point. I can't get round the fact that BAM and her Singers were pushing towards Feverstone Keep as mentioned in the gem archive and a solider in the Feverstone Keep Vision says there was a front near there with Radiants.  Plus, Honor said these were the first, it's likely the Recreance started either the same day or within a couple days of the fighting ending. 

Why would they choose to start breaking their Oaths in front of Feverstone Keep if they had all returned to Urithiru and argued about it for a ~month (50 days on Roshar) as was posited on the Shardcast. Feverstone Keep is in the general vicinity of Rall Elorim. It's nowhere near Uirithiru. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rall_Elorim

The simplest explanation is the first ones who quit didn't go back to Urithiru or wherever the new Radiant home bases were. Whatever discussion they had, they had near where the strike took place and they went from there to the nearest place where humans were to make a big show of quitting.  

Yeah, there are no Spanreeds, so the fighting may have been over for a bit, but armies still had messengers. Presumably there were some normal troops along with the radiants and the fighting was near feverstone keep. If multiple weeks had passed since the battle that's plenty of time for non-radiants to relay a message to a major fortress near the front that the war ended.  Perhaps they took a a few days, a week, but longer than that is stretching it.  

Quote

Urithiru was likely "failing" before Mishram's capture (though this is not certain):

Before RoW my thought was the same. The Sibling "withdrawal" was separate from the Sibling taking damage. I am also not 100% sure about this.

They had to leave Urithiru because the Sibling kicked them out.  I don't know that this happened before or after the strike, but it seems like the strike had not happened. They were preparing to leave when they made the gem archive. They made the gem archive because they were preparing to leave it. Leaving something behind as a symbolic gesture / grieving process. Different orders used it differently, but there is no epigraph that reads like it was pre them having to leave the tower and none read like they occurred after the strike on BAM. Sibling kicked them out before the strike and they don't seem to have come back. 

I think the Tower "failing" was the Sibling choosing to depower it. In RoW the Sibling says they went to great lengths to convince everyone they were dead. "everyone was supposed to think I was dead"(RoW Ch. 40) They could have been pretending from the start / told them to get out and shut down the heating to encourage that and then taken damage from the strike which actually hurt their ability to power the tower. This is what makes the timeline so confusing, were they choosing not to power the tower fully at first or did they take the damage first? I think they chose not to at first and the damage came after they kicked everyone out, but can't prove it.  

Quote

Moat of the Knights abandoned their oaths on the same day:

Additionally, some of the other orders would have had to abandon their Ideals around the same time, as Maya did not expect to become a deadeye, which seems strange if deadeyes from the other Radiant spren were around.[8]

@WeiryWriter Made a great point on the Shardcast. Deadeye spren only show up in the Cognitive realm when they are unsummoned and the ability to summon/unsummon a dead blade requires a gemstone. The people who just picked them up would have no idea about this. The deadeye wouldn't have been viewable in the cognitive realm and that makes it less likely the other radiant spren would realize the extent of the injuries. This gives the other radiant orders some time to argue and come around to quitting without realizing the full cost. 

 

[Brgst13]

Quote

depower it. In RoW the Sibling says they went to great lengths to convince everyone they were dead. "everyone was supposed to think I was dead"(RoW Ch. 40) They could have been pretending from the start / told them to get out and shut down the heating to encourage that and then taken damage from the strike which actually hurt their ability to power the tower. This is what makes the timeline so confusing, were they choosing not to power the tower fully at first or did they take the damage first? I think they chose not to at first and the damage came after they kicked everyone out, but can't prove it. 

I think the gem archive proves this.  Chapter 68 of Oathbringer:

Quote

"My research into the cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent- but I find counter to that theory."

Chapter 70:

Quote

"Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue."

Chapters 80-81:

Quote

"Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her."
	"We are uncertain the effects this will have on the parsh. At the very least, it should deny them forms of power. Melishi is confident, but Naze-daughter-Kuzodo warns of unintended side effects."

Given that the first two are from drawer 1, and the last 2 from drawer 30, it seems to strongly indicate that the Sibling was withdrawing prior to the capture of BAM.  I am assuming that the drawers are in chronological order.

[Darth_Hel]

 

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

 

@WeiryWriter Made a great point on the Shardcast. Deadeye spren only show up in the Cognitive realm when they are unsummoned and the ability to summon/unsummon a dead blade requires a gemstone. The people who just picked them up would have no idea about this. The deadeye wouldn't have been viewable in the cognitive realm and that makes it less likely the other radiant spren would realize the extent of the injuries. This gives the other radiant orders some time to argue and come around to quitting without realizing the full cost. 

 

Does this explain Deadeyes at least partially then? They've lost all connection to the Cognitive Realm and while the gems on the blade restore a bit of it, its not enough for them to fully gain back their consciousness. Would explain how Adolin is restoring Maya. The Cognitive is all about thoughts and ideas, so Adolin's mental image of Maya as a full person and not just a blade or a Deadeye might be fixing that issue in the Cognitive and restoring her slowly.

[Joshy]

This is theory of an alternative motive for the Recreance, so felt like it would fit in here. If not, please just let me know and I'll move it!

SPOILERS for MISTBORN ERA 1 (all of it), if there's anyone this deep that hasn't read it

Spoiler

  Has anybody theorised about a link between the Recreance and the Resolution of the Kandra, another specific event beginning with R that had a group of creatures willingly forfeit their power and/or consciousness for the (apparent) greater good? I searched but couldn't find any mentions, so thought I'd throw this out there

  Could it be that the very urgent need for the Knights Radiant to give up their bond, even if it meant pain or death for the Spren, is that the Enemy was able to exploit them and/or turn them to His side, similar to the weakness of the Kandra to Ruin's influence?

 

Were the Fused originally Human? Seems unlikely.

 

  Even if the original Fused were Singers though, we do think (or know?) that the Ancient Singers held Nahel Bonds with "Radiant" Spren in their Gemhearts. Was it this bond that was corrupted, and were the Singer and Spren "Fused" together into one entity? I've always wondered why Odium stopped creating Fused. Could it be that it's because Radiant Spren stopped bonding Singers?

 

And importantly, could this Fusing now be done to Humans, to create new Fused?

 

  Regardless of KRs becoming Fused or not, it feels like a plausible parallel to Kandra, for the KsR to give up their oaths to prevent giving power in some way to the Enemy. Supporting this is the fact that the Skybreakers carried on as a policing force, and slaughtered anyone close to making a Radiant Bond - almost like they were stopping Roshar from producing weapons that could be harvested by Odium? (Although the Skybreakers' betrayal doesn't quite fit with this. But Nale's mind isn't quite what it was... inconsistency among the Heralds' actions in the present with their actions in the past seems common...).

The obvious flaw, I think, is that if this was the danger present to the original KsR, why hasn't it become obvious to the current KsR?

I do have an answer for this:

  We know that the Recreance happened after the sealing of BAM. This had some negative effect on Singers & Spren, and we speculate that it has impacted Humans in a way that we don't currently know. Argent speculated on the Shardcast that maybe it has to do with humans dying. Could Odium be intercepting the departing Cognitive Shadow of dying KsR and stealing/corrupting/Fusing them for his army?

This would explain why the current KsR aren't aware of it - Odium would want to keep it a secret so he could harvest as many KsR as possible.

It's a bit of a whacky theory, but I liked it, so thought I'd share. Would love to hear your thoughts

Also, my apologies for rambling a bunch, and for the excessive use of parentheses. I'm really too fond of them.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Joshy
Tidying up formatting, minor wording tweaks

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, Joshy said:

Even if the original Fused were Singers though, we do think (or know?) that the Ancient Singers held Nahel Bonds with "Radiant" Spren in their Gemhearts. Was it this bond that was corrupted, and were the Singer and Spren "Fused" together into one entity? I've always wondered why Odium stopped creating Fused. Could it be that it's because Radiant Spren stopped bonding Singers?

This is a theory I've thought about recently, though I don't personally think it was behind the Recreance if it's true. I'm not certain where I stand on it, at the moment. It could certainly be the "betrayal" bad enough for spren to take seven millennia to bond a singer again...

2 hours ago, Joshy said:

Could Odium be intercepting the departing Cognitive Shadow of dying KsR and stealing/corrupting/Fusing them for his army?

This likely wouldn't work under your theory, as we have spren whose Radiant died still around and bonding (Yunfah is I think the only example we know, not sure how many other Radiants have died).

2 hours ago, Joshy said:

We know that the Recreance happened after the sealing of BAM. This had some negative effect on Singers & Spren, and we speculate that it has impacted Humans in a way that we don't currently know.

Eh, idk. It affected the spren in a very specific circumstance (bonded with broken Ideals), and singers who were directly Connected to, and recieving Light and forms from, her. It's possible it had wider effects, but they might only show in a similarly complex scenario. (Of course, my guesses are often wrong, so maybe don't listen to me xD)

2 hours ago, Joshy said:

SPOILERS for MISTBORN ERA 1 (all of it), if there's anyone this deep that hasn't read it

I believe this subforum is full Cosmere spoilers?

[Joshy]

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This is a theory I've thought about recently, though I don't personally think it was behind the Recreance if it's true. I'm not certain where I stand on it, at the moment. It could certainly be the "betrayal" bad enough for spren to take seven millennia to bond a singer again...

  Cool to know I'm not the only one that saw that possibility! I just was really wondering about the name Fused. Yes they're "Fused" to the bodies of new singers, but is that the real reason for the name? And why no new ones?

  Fair point that it might be unrelated to the Recreance though. It does seem a bit of a stretch, especially considering how well the current theory seems to be working - the worthiness, the guilt over BAM/Singers, Honor going loopy and accusing them of repeating the past... If that is the case, I really wonder if sealing BAM did something to/killed Honor somehow... that would certainly explain even more why they felt so guilty

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

This likely wouldn't work under your theory, as we have spren whose Radiant died still around and bonding (Yunfah is I think the only example we know, not sure how many other Radiants have died).

  Ah of course, Yunfah! Hadn't thought of him, very good point. So seems like this chunk of theory isn't right, unless Yunfah is an exception to the rule for some reason... (I doubt it lol)

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh, idk. It affected the spren in a very specific circumstance (bonded with broken Ideals), and singers who were directly Connected to, and recieving Light and forms from, her. It's possible it had wider effects, but they might only show in a similarly complex scenario. (Of course, my guesses are often wrong, so maybe don't listen to me xD)

  I think that's a fair assessment, and humble of you to say, but it's literally your thread and I was looking for other viewpoints, so thank you!

  I kinda picked up this possibility because I could combine it with my own theory. And also because I really really like the idea that the screams Szeth & Dalinar hear are real, not just psychosis/PTSD/guilt, etc. When Argent said it on the cast it blew my mind xD

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I believe this subforum is full Cosmere spoilers?

Oh brill, thanks! Makes sense!

[Serack]

I was just considering writing up a reference of all the material that can be used to build a timeline for the BAM imprisonment/Recreance, Tanavast death and found this.  You craft a great reference post LTT.

Things to add (I hope you are up updating your OP and editing these in)

 

Quote

Questioner

How close is the enslavement of the parshmen to the Recreance, timeline-wise? 

Brandon Sanderson

Um, fairly close, as timeline issues go, but still many decades.

Questioner

Did it play any kind of factor in the decision?

Brandon Sanderson

Absolutely. But we're not talking about it happening next year. But it was a factor, how about that?

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

 

You didn't specifically address Tanavast's death in the sequence but I think it's relevant, and here is one of the best WoB on the subject

Quote

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Serack said:

  Quote

Questioner

How close is the enslavement of the parshmen to the Recreance, timeline-wise? 

Brandon Sanderson

Um, fairly close, as timeline issues go, but still many decades.

Questioner

Did it play any kind of factor in the decision?

Brandon Sanderson

Absolutely. But we're not talking about it happening next year. But it was a factor, how about that?

Skyward Houston signing (Nov. 19, 2018)

I've usually interpreted this as saying the actual enslavement took time to happen, because otherwise the Radiants being out fighting the "devils" is confusing (as is the mention of "the enemy" in the gem archive). But it's weird for sure.

1 hour ago, Serack said:

You didn't specifically address Tanavast's death in the sequence but I think it's relevant, and here is one of the best WoB on the subject

Thanks, I'll add that.

[+mdross81]

Since this thread is seeing life again, I wanted to pick folks’ brains about some other questions tangentially related to this timeline.

So we know that during the False Desolation, Ba-Ado-Mishram provided Voidlight and forms of power to the singers. But for how long was she doing that? Was it a matter of weeks? Months? Years?

And before she started providing the forms of power, were the common form singers keeping up the fight? I know humanity had a lot of rebuilding to do. But they had Urithiru and the Radiants. Seems like the singers would have been at a major disadvantage. I have a hard time thinking they kept up the fight for thousands of years between Aharietiam and the False Desolation.

Lastly, were the singers on board with BAM’s plan or did she force the forms on them? That would be even more tragic than I had previously thought.

Edited April 23, 2021 by mdross81

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

were the common form singers keeping up the fight?

Unclear. Syl says the Radiants didn't have as much time for experimenting with creative non-war uses for their powers because they were always fighting, but also says Relador spent most of his life just traveling between small villages using her to cut aqueducts and cisterns, and only went to fight when he was old, so.... /shrug

[Honorless]

The Parshmen transformation and the Recreance happened years apart? I didn't know that... that honestly changes things then

[LewsTherinTelescope]

33 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The Parshmen transformation and the Recreance happened years apart? I didn't know that... that honestly changes things then

I've usually interpreted it as meaning the enslavement took time to happen during the chaos following the False Desolation, lobotomization, Recreance, and Honor's death all happening in quick succession, but yeah, it raises.... questions, if what you say is even a remote possibility.

[Serack]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

The Parshmen transformation and the Recreance happened years apart? I didn't know that... that honestly changes things then

The words used are enslavement, and it's ambiguous if it's decades before or after.  After reflection, I see it as between 2 main possibilities, with one main intermediate possibility.

1. BAM was captured and the connection with the Singers severed and enslaved several decades before the Recreance, making the enemies described in the Feverstone Keep dream something other than the singers.
2. BAM was captured decades after the Recreance by someone holding the Bondsmith  Honorblade.  

The intermediate possibility is that they were much closer together, and the enslavement took decades, or Brandon misspoke or was otherwise missleading.

 

Edit:  @LewsTherinTelescope, the header "Either the enslavement of the singers weren't enslaved for decades, or the Recreance somehow was decades after BAM's capture" is worded problematically.  

Edited April 23, 2021 by Serack

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 minutes ago, Serack said:

Edit:  @LewsTherinTelescope, the header "Either the enslavement of the singers weren't enslaved for decades, or the Recreance somehow was decades after BAM's capture" is worded problematically.  

Oops yeah will fix that, thanks for pointing it out.

8 minutes ago, Serack said:

BAM was captured decades after the Recreance by someone holding the Bondsmith  Honorblade.  

Can't be, it was specifically an action carried out by a Radiant strike force, led by the last Bondsmith before the Recreance.

 

Interestingly, Kalak seems to consider the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram and the fall of the singers and of the Knights as very very strongly connected:

Quote

Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago—and the imprisoning of a specific spren.

[Serack]

I'm actually forming a theory on this right now...  more of a WAG.

 

I'm posting it as a response to a theory I made last year because it and your reference above form the context for it.

[Honorless]

No, no, guys, I get that part. As Oltux put it, I expected the Day of Recreance to have been an emotional response, but there's definitely more to it, they were on the clock for some reason. Abandoning their Oaths all at once and the Bonded spren not informing other spren.

[mathiau]

23 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Unclear. Syl says the Radiants didn't have as much time for experimenting with creative non-war uses for their powers because they were always fighting, but also says Relador spent most of his life just traveling between small villages using her to cut aqueducts and cisterns, and only went to fight when he was old, so.... /shrug

Relador became a Radiant when he was old

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Relador became a Radiant when he was old

Nope:

Quote

The tower was dead. She barely remembered the place from before, when she’d bonded her old wonderful knight. He’d spent most of his life traveling to little villages, using her as a Shardblade to cut cisterns or aqueducts for the people. She remembered coming to Urithiru with him once … and the tower had been bright with lights.… A strange kind of light …

[+Bzhydack]

On 23.04.2021 at 2:46 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Unclear. Syl says the Radiants didn't have as much time for experimenting with creative non-war uses for their powers because they were always fighting, but also says Relador spent most of his life just traveling between small villages using her to cut aqueducts and cisterns, and only went to fight when he was old, so.... /shrug

Radiants were always fighting during Desolations, but between last Desolation and False Desolation was 2000 years of realtive peace.

[+mdross81]

Thought of another question about events around the time of the imprisonment and the Recreance.

it concerns the three zircons in the Urithiru gem archive discussing the Sibling’s withdrawal and the cessation of certain functions of the tower.

In light of the Sibling saying that they lost the ability to make Towerlight when they lost the ability to hear Honor and Cultivation’s tones, and that this was a result of the same thing that changed the singers, do we think that the changes referenced in the zircons were the result of the imprisonment of BAM?

Or were those changes the result of the “falling-out” between the Sibling and humans referenced here:

Quote

All of the nodes are down low. There was talk of installing others farther away, but my Bondsmith did not have the resources—my falling-out with the humans was driving them away. The project wasn’t completed. Only the four on the first few floors were completed.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, mdross81 said:

Thought of another question about events around the time of the imprisonment and the Recreance.

it concerns the three zircons in the Urithiru gem archive discussing the Sibling’s withdrawal and the cessation of certain functions of the tower.

In light of the Sibling saying that they lost the ability to make Towerlight when they lost the ability to hear Honor and Cultivation’s tones, and that this was a result of the same thing that changed the singers, do we think that the changes referenced in the zircons were the result of the imprisonment of BAM?

Or were those changes the result of the “falling-out” between the Sibling and humans referenced here:

I'm not sure. It doesn't make much sense for it to be BAM with the timeline we know, but it also pretty much sounds like the state the tower is in when our Radiants find it. So.... zero clue.