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Adolin's Future


Vessel of Theory

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Alrighty folks, here we go! Bringing this theory from its original posting in the Adolin Alone thread.

So, just to introduce the topic: Adolin. Is. Awesome. I don't think it's arguable. If I'm right, we were all pretty triggered in RoW when Adolin talks to Dalinar about the mission into Shadesmar. To summarize, it goes like this:

Spoiler

Dalinar: Yo, thanks for going on the mission.

Adolin: Dude why tho, it's important.

Dalinar: Well, you're not worthy.

Adolin: You're one to talk.

Dalinar: Lad, chill. Listen bud, I'm Radiant, your mom's Radiant, your cousin's Radiant, your brother's Radiant, your friend's Radiant, your wife's Radiant.

Adolin: What are you saying? I'm just not good enough? After everything, I'm not enough?

Dalinar: Well, yes. Ya gotta be Radiant kiddo.

This passage kind of got me thinking, maybe this is that odd breed of foreshadowing so favored by Sanderson. And thus my Intent consumed my humble Vessel, and *poof* we have a theory :). And it made me very, very angry, because Dalinar... come on! Adolin's upset that you killed his mom and never mentioned it. He has perfectly justified reasons for not being happy with you, and this flawed belief of Dalinar's that someone has to be Radiant to be "worthy" really just sounds like him jabbing back at his son, who's always been there for him.

Anyway, for the longest time there's been a debate on whether or not Adolin will in fact become a Radiant or not, and if so what Order he'd belong to. Most people think Edgedancer, but there are plenty of options with plenty of reasons. I've always been a fond supporter(and possibly the only one) that Adolin will become a Dustbringer, what with Sadeas and all his "take responsibility" stuff. However, SA isn't Keeping up with the Kholins, or anything like that. It's the record of a bunch of Invested beings and their actions, discoveries, plans, and emotions. At this point, I do not want Adolin to become a Knight Radiant, but it doesn't matter much to me right now.

I think that Adolin is going to become the Shard of the Rosharan System. This is the fun part, sharders. I'll outline my reasoning.

We need a new Shard, one that balances Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. Why? Because of the Recreance, the Desolations, the Humans vs. Singers, the Knights Radiant, the Spren, etc. If there was a single Rosharan Shard, one which balanced Passion, Respect for the Law, and Development, Roshar would be a much nicer place. Also, Odium wouldn't be able to just kill off all the Shards. Which would be nice. While I know that Odium makes for a great uber-antagonist, Sanderson rarely carries villains from one series to the next(never), and I think people are going to get tired of Odium, now Todium, being the bad guy. It just gets repetitive, if you follow my drift.

As for reviving Honor - Honor is a concept, a piece of Creation that can be Splintered but not destroyed. It is my belief that if an individual could become the Vessel of Honor, Honor would be un-splintered. Remember Mistborn? Preservation had splintered itself to the point where it could no loner resist Ruin, who then "destroyed" Preservation. Yet when Vin takes on Preservation, she is of equal strength with Ruin - proof, IMO, that a Shard can be un-splintered. We also know that a mortal being can assume Vesselship of more than one Shard at a time, as demonstrated by dear Sazed.

We also know, again from Sazed, that a Shard wants to be filled perfectly. It's almost as if the Shards themselves have Spiritwebs that need to be filled. When Sazed writes that he is trying to shape someone to protect Scadrial better than he can, he makes a prety obvious statement. Anyone can take up a Shard, but some Vessels fit better than others. Sazed, IMO, has made it clear the he intends to step down from Vesselhood and give it(probably) to Wax. Or, in a twist, Kaladin.

The reason I doubt Adolin will become a KR is that his Spiritweb probably isn't damaged enough for a Nahel bond to fill. While we know that "healthy" people like Lopen can become KR, it doesn't happen often, and Lopen still had his big 'ol issues(the whole bridgeman thing).

Here's why I think Adolin's the best candidate for a unified Rosharan Shard: He embodies each of them well. He is a creature of Passion, Dedication, and Growing. He does not believe any of them are evil or wrong, and they make up much of his character.

Think of the biggest events in his life. Helping raise Renarin, protesting Kaladin's imprisonment, murdering Sadeas, marrying Shallan, helping his father too many times to count, being a friend to Kaladin, loving Shallan and trying to be a good husband, trying to be a good leader for his men, giving of himself to help others, caring for and believing in Maya, respecting a dead spren(Maya), and so many more. Thing is, every single one of these examples, these important actions that at the end of the day tell us who he is, embody one or more of the Rosharan Shards.

I'm not going to list them out for you, but if you look, you will see. If y'all see problems with this, or WoBs that contradict it, lemme know, because I am not very WoB-aware. Looking forward to discussing this, and hopefully seeing it in Theory Thursday!

As always, smiley for long post :) 

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On 2020-12-27 at 3:13 PM, Vessel of Theory said:

 

Alrighty folks, here we go! Bringing this theory from its original posting in the Adolin Alone thread.

So, just to introduce the topic: Adolin. Is. Awesome. I don't think it's arguable. If I'm right, we were all pretty triggered in RoW when Adolin talks to Dalinar about the mission into Shadesmar. To summarize, it goes like this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Dalinar: Yo, thanks for going on the mission.

Adolin: Dude why tho, it's important.

Dalinar: Well, you're not worthy.

Adolin: You're one to talk.

Dalinar: Lad, chill. Listen bud, I'm Radiant, your mom's Radiant, your cousin's Radiant, your brother's Radiant, your friend's Radiant, your wife's Radiant.

Adolin: What are you saying? I'm just not good enough? After everything, I'm not enough?

Dalinar: Well, yes. Ya gotta be Radiant kiddo.

This passage kind of got me thinking, maybe this is that odd breed of foreshadowing so favored by Sanderson. And thus my Intent consumed my humble Vessel, and *poof* we have a theory :). And it made me very, very angry, because Dalinar... come on! Adolin's upset that you killed his mom and never mentioned it. He has perfectly justified reasons for not being happy with you, and this flawed belief of Dalinar's that someone has to be Radiant to be "worthy" really just sounds like him jabbing back at his son, who's always been there for him.

Anyway, for the longest time there's been a debate on whether or not Adolin will in fact become a Radiant or not, and if so what Order he'd belong to. Most people think Edgedancer, but there are plenty of options with plenty of reasons. I've always been a fond supporter(and possibly the only one) that Adolin will become a Dustbringer, what with Sadeas and all his "take responsibility" stuff. However, SA isn't Keeping up with the Kholins, or anything like that. It's the record of a bunch of Invested beings and their actions, discoveries, plans, and emotions. At this point, I do not want Adolin to become a Knight Radiant, but it doesn't matter much to me right now.

I think that Adolin is going to become the Shard of the Rosharan System. This is the fun part, sharders. I'll outline my reasoning.

We need a new Shard, one that balances Odium, Cultivation, and Honor. Why? Because of the Recreance, the Desolations, the Humans vs. Singers, the Knights Radiant, the Spren, etc. If there was a single Rosharan Shard, one which balanced Passion, Respect for the Law, and Development, Roshar would be a much nicer place. Also, Odium wouldn't be able to just kill off all the Shards. Which would be nice. While I know that Odium makes for a great uber-antagonist, Sanderson rarely carries villains from one series to the next(never), and I think people are going to get tired of Odium, now Todium, being the bad guy. It just gets repetitive, if you follow my drift.

As for reviving Honor - Honor is a concept, a piece of Creation that can be Splintered but not destroyed. It is my belief that if an individual could become the Vessel of Honor, Honor would be un-splintered. Remember Mistborn? Preservation had splintered itself to the point where it could no loner resist Ruin, who then "destroyed" Preservation. Yet when Vin takes on Preservation, she is of equal strength with Ruin - proof, IMO, that a Shard can be un-splintered. We also know that a mortal being can assume Vesselship of more than one Shard at a time, as demonstrated by dear Sazed.

We also know, again from Sazed, that a Shard wants to be filled perfectly. It's almost as if the Shards themselves have Spiritwebs that need to be filled. When Sazed writes that he is trying to shape someone to protect Scadrial better than he can, he makes a prety obvious statement. Anyone can take up a Shard, but some Vessels fit better than others. Sazed, IMO, has made it clear the he intends to step down from Vesselhood and give it(probably) to Wax. Or, in a twist, Kaladin.

The reason I doubt Adolin will become a KR is that his Spiritweb probably isn't damaged enough for a Nahel bond to fill. While we know that "healthy" people like Lopen can become KR, it doesn't happen often, and Lopen still had his big 'ol issues(the whole bridgeman thing).

Here's why I think Adolin's the best candidate for a unified Rosharan Shard: He embodies each of them well. He is a creature of Passion, Dedication, and Growing. He does not believe any of them are evil or wrong, and they make up much of his character.

Think of the biggest events in his life. Helping raise Renarin, protesting Kaladin's imprisonment, murdering Sadeas, marrying Shallan, helping his father too many times to count, being a friend to Kaladin, loving Shallan and trying to be a good husband, trying to be a good leader for his men, giving of himself to help others, caring for and believing in Maya, respecting a dead spren(Maya), and so many more. Thing is, every single one of these examples, these important actions that at the end of the day tell us who he is, embody one or more of the Rosharan Shards.

I'm not going to list them out for you, but if you look, you will see. If y'all see problems with this, or WoBs that contradict it, lemme know, because I am not very WoB-aware. Looking forward to discussing this, and hopefully seeing it in Theory Thursday!

As always, smiley for long post :) 

Thanks for this topic!  Adolin is one of my favourite characters-- the one I personally wanted to be a KR far more than Navani, who just constantly annoys me! Thus this book irked me with our current cast of characters stuck in some type of limbo or another throughout this book. But the way you explain it, it makes sense why he wouldn't be a KR, as he's not so...damaged.  

He's a kind man, one who has true empathy and honour, with the exception of that tiny problem of killing Sadeas, I still consider that an honourable killing, in protection of his family. I love Adolin, with his fashion sense...;)  I've been stomping around storming mad that Navani and every other freaking Kholin is a KR, but why isn't Adolin? I hadn't looked at it your way, and I'd be completely thrilled if he became something greater. I pretty much am resigned to him being a plot device to get other characters where they are going, but again- would love to see him in your theoried role. 

 

 

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On 12/27/2020 at 0:13 PM, Vessel of Theory said:

Anyway, for the longest time there's been a debate on whether or not Adolin will in fact become a Radiant or not, and if so what Order he'd belong to. Most people think Edgedancer, but there are plenty of options with plenty of reasons. I've always been a fond supporter(and possibly the only one) that Adolin will become a Dustbringer, what with Sadeas and all his "take responsibility" stuff. However, SA isn't Keeping up with the Kholins, or anything like that. It's the record of a bunch of Invested beings and their actions, discoveries, plans, and emotions. At this point, I do not want Adolin to become a Knight Radiant, but it doesn't matter much to me right now.

A lot of the protagonists seem to have moments of fitting multiple orders.  Kaladin forges his team using a lot of emotional supportiveness stuff like Lift displays when she does things like hugging Nale--he even offers Gaz of all people some soup and he hates Gaz.  Szeth is...Szeth is a wildcard and I still don't understand how his Skybreaker stuff is working because he really should not be anywhere NEAR surgebinding powers, much less Nightblood.  Adolin shows signs of Dustbringer and Stoneward traits at points in OB and ROW, but his defining moments are very Edgedancery--sort of like how Kaladin's defining moments are painfully Windrunner.  Adolin's key moments are stuff like: 

  1. "Hey, bridgeman, go tell this senior officer that I'll be late to a meeting because I nearly provoked a civil war over a prostitute who I'm now making sure gets home safe, here's a tip in advance"
  2. "Here's a Shardblade, Renarin, you can be a badass like me too now."  
  3. "I know you're 'just' a magic sword, but I'm going to treat you with outsized respect and reverence because I feel something as beautiful, ancient, and deadly as a Shardblade deserves it"
  4. "Storm propriety, this guy saved my life and Amaram is clearly hiding something anyway"
  5. "Wait, my sword is actually a person who's been written off as a sad case of incurable disability?  Storms, that's terrible!  Come on, sword-lady, I'll keep you safe, stick close, you're going to be OK..."  
  6. "Oh Almighty I'm gonna die that thing is 50 feet tall and made of solid rock and I have no armor and it's going after me oh Almighty--crap, there might be a kid in danger, gotta double back and save them."  
  7. "Shallan, I want to marry you, not your cool alter egos...I mean, if you still want me and not the obviously better super-cool flying moody tall dark and handsome badass over there...honestly I wouldn't blame you at all if you picked him, he's awesome."
  8. "OK, you prissy bastards are going to write my whole species off?  Put me on trial, then.  Only, Maya comes with me.  We're a package deal."  
  9. "Maya, take my strength, don't let these prissy bastards use you and speak for you!  You can do it!"  

All of that is "taking care of some random nobody at significant personal expense" or "emotional support".  All stuff that Lift does in her big character moments.  

 

Anyway, I think your theory is interesting, but I think that if anyone takes up all three shards, it'll be Sazed after Kelsier/Thaidakar goes and pulls some absolutely insane shenanigans to trick him into doing so.  After all...where do you go after you helped kill God once and were a god for a bit and started two religions for yourself?  Tricking another god into becoming more gods is a decent next step.  

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5 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

A lot of the protagonists seem to have moments of fitting multiple orders.  Kaladin forges his team using a lot of emotional supportiveness stuff like Lift displays when she does things like hugging Nale--he even offers Gaz of all people some soup and he hates Gaz.  Szeth is...Szeth is a wildcard and I still don't understand how his Skybreaker stuff is working because he really should not be anywhere NEAR surgebinding powers, much less Nightblood.  Adolin shows signs of Dustbringer and Stoneward traits at points in OB and ROW, but his defining moments are very Edgedancery--sort of like how Kaladin's defining moments are painfully Windrunner.  Adolin's key moments are stuff like: 

  1. "Hey, bridgeman, go tell this senior officer that I'll be late to a meeting because I nearly provoked a civil war over a prostitute who I'm now making sure gets home safe, here's a tip in advance"
  2. "Here's a Shardblade, Renarin, you can be a badass like me too now."  
  3. "I know you're 'just' a magic sword, but I'm going to treat you with outsized respect and reverence because I feel something as beautiful, ancient, and deadly as a Shardblade deserves it"
  4. "Storm propriety, this guy saved my life and Amaram is clearly hiding something anyway"
  5. "Wait, my sword is actually a person who's been written off as a sad case of incurable disability?  Storms, that's terrible!  Come on, sword-lady, I'll keep you safe, stick close, you're going to be OK..."  
  6. "Oh Almighty I'm gonna die that thing is 50 feet tall and made of solid rock and I have no armor and it's going after me oh Almighty--crap, there might be a kid in danger, gotta double back and save them."  
  7. "Shallan, I want to marry you, not your cool alter egos...I mean, if you still want me and not the obviously better super-cool flying moody tall dark and handsome badass over there...honestly I wouldn't blame you at all if you picked him, he's awesome."
  8. "OK, you prissy bastards are going to write my whole species off?  Put me on trial, then.  Only, Maya comes with me.  We're a package deal."  
  9. "Maya, take my strength, don't let these prissy bastards use you and speak for you!  You can do it!"  

All of that is "taking care of some random nobody at significant personal expense" or "emotional support".  All stuff that Lift does in her big character moments.  

 

Anyway, I think your theory is interesting, but I think that if anyone takes up all three shards, it'll be Sazed after Kelsier/Thaidakar goes and pulls some absolutely insane shenanigans to trick him into doing so.  After all...where do you go after you helped kill God once and were a god for a bit and started two religions for yourself?  Tricking another god into becoming more gods is a decent next step.  

I like this theory of yours! I just see one problem with it: Sazed is about to retire. Remember how in one of his early letters(Part 2 of RoW, prob around chap. 30) he talks about "not fitting" the shards well, and grooming someone else to fit them better? He didn't say it outright, but it sounds to me like he's grooming someone(prob Wax, idk) to take up Harmony. He says that Scadrial needs someone who can see fighting as a way to protect - essentially Ruin, but with Preservation's Intent.

I like the idea that(I think you're going here) Sazed might become Adonalsium, but I don't see Sazed as the kind of person who wants that. He wants to teach religions, not be religions. He speaks so casually to Wax, it's almost like they're equals. IMO, Sazed is tired of being Harmony and doesn't believe he fits the role. Maybe someone will convince him that he does, or that he needs to stay as Harmony, but I just don't think so. No solid evidence, just a hunch :)

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7 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

I like this theory of yours! I just see one problem with it: Sazed is about to retire. Remember how in one of his early letters(Part 2 of RoW, prob around chap. 30) he talks about "not fitting" the shards well, and grooming someone else to fit them better? He didn't say it outright, but it sounds to me like he's grooming someone(prob Wax, idk) to take up Harmony. He says that Scadrial needs someone who can see fighting as a way to protect - essentially Ruin, but with Preservation's Intent.

I like the idea that(I think you're going here) Sazed might become Adonalsium, but I don't see Sazed as the kind of person who wants that. He wants to teach religions, not be religions. He speaks so casually to Wax, it's almost like they're equals. IMO, Sazed is tired of being Harmony and doesn't believe he fits the role. Maybe someone will convince him that he does, or that he needs to stay as Harmony, but I just don't think so. No solid evidence, just a hunch :)

Actually I think that Sazed's reluctance to be a god makes him the perfect god.  He doesn't let it go to his head.  

Sazed-onalsium would be a pretty chill god overall, although maybe leaving something as inherently dangerous as the literal essence of hatred out of the collection and just sequestering it might be better overall.  Probably spiritually/philosophically a bad idea but from a practical POV that power and Intent seem to be just straight-up bad.  

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11 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

I like this theory of yours! I just see one problem with it: Sazed is about to retire. Remember how in one of his early letters(Part 2 of RoW, prob around chap. 30) he talks about "not fitting" the shards well, and grooming someone else to fit them better? He didn't say it outright, but it sounds to me like he's grooming someone(prob Wax, idk) to take up Harmony. He says that Scadrial needs someone who can see fighting as a way to protect - essentially Ruin, but with Preservation's Intent.

You have to remember that RoW, and the letters, come before Wax and Wayne. Harmony is talking about how he needs a servant to be able to act, which is Wax.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

You have to remember that RoW, and the letters, come before Wax and Wayne. Harmony is talking about how he needs a servant to be able to act, which is Wax.

Okay, thanks. Wasn't aware of that, don't pay attention to the timeline. Thanks :)

 

1 hour ago, GroundPetrel said:

Actually I think that Sazed's reluctance to be a god makes him the perfect god.  He doesn't let it go to his head.  

Sazed-onalsium would be a pretty chill god overall, although maybe leaving something as inherently dangerous as the literal essence of hatred out of the collection and just sequestering it might be better overall.  Probably spiritually/philosophically a bad idea but from a practical POV that power and Intent seem to be just straight-up bad.  

You're definitely onto something with the whole humility thing. If I had to pick someone to be responsible and be a decent/good all-powerful deity, it'd probably be Sazed. He understands, he cares, and he wants to do good.

As for sequestering Ruin/Odium, just a personal thought: death, decay, and/or destruction are all parts of the cycle of life. Conservation of matter means that for there to be more, it has to come out of something. It's a finite universe. Except for Investiture, of course, but raw Investiture is not matter(unless I'm wrong - could maybe argue that since Investiture is infinite, and able to be made into metals, it is matter).

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30 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

As for sequestering Ruin/Odium, just a personal thought: death, decay, and/or destruction are all parts of the cycle of life. Conservation of matter means that for there to be more, it has to come out of something. It's a finite universe. Except for Investiture, of course, but raw Investiture is not matter(unless I'm wrong - could maybe argue that since Investiture is infinite, and able to be made into metals, it is matter).

That's what Ruin is for, though.  Ruin is all about entropy--inimical to civilization but essential to life.  Odium is about hate, though--Ruin is dangerous, but essential, Odium is just plain dangerous.  

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30 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

That's what Ruin is for, though.  Ruin is all about entropy--inimical to civilization but essential to life.  Odium is about hate, though--Ruin is dangerous, but essential, Odium is just plain dangerous.  

Okay, just to have the debate, I'm gonna say something. But first, just to clarify, I very much do not like Odium's Intent. It seems to me that, unbridled and unchecked, it cannot be wielded without disastrous effect on the Cosmere. Whether or not the passion is intended for good or evil, decimation will come of it in the end.

 

The Fused say, repeatedly, that Odium is not hate but passion. Hate is but one of Odium's many facets, as it is passionate anger(might be the wrong emotion, but I'm not trying to be spot-on here, just provide example). It's nice to connect hate with murder, but, as we saw with Ruin and Preservation, one Shard is only stronger than another if they are less Invested into a particular place. Odium has been Investing plenty of things, and so have the other Shards, so it's hard to say whether Rayse's finished rampage through the other Shards is due to distraction or simple incompetence. We hear over and over again from everyone who knew Rayse that he wasn't the smartest. Someone with poor logical habits would be particularly susceptible, IMO, to rash actions, such as breaking peace and fighting the only other things that could kill you.

But back to the discussion at hand. If Rayse was an ambitious fool, to put it bluntly, then it makes sense that if he was empassioned for who knows how long(not me ;) ),  he'd take it out on the other Shards. Taravangian, however, is a much more logical Vessel. We can't say that this makes him more dangerous, because, at then end of the day, a Chasmfiend is no better opponent than a Sleepless. One is smart, the other is, well, not smart. Fighting either would be disastrous.

What I'm trying to say is that Odium is useful. Passion can be used to motivate, to achieve goals. When you're sitting around doing nothing, you're unfulfilled(I expect). However, if you feel passionate and hop onto the 17th Shard, you're suddenly much more fulfilled( ;) ). Passion by itself is, IMO, indisputably dangerous. However, if it was bound to Honor and Cultivation... Can you imagine how much would be accomplished? You suddenly have a Shard that is able, willing, and motivated to help and grow stuff, for lack of a better word. It isn't hard to imagine the problems with any of the other Shards, either.

As I'm feeling passionately daring, I'll take this one step further. None of the Shards are, by themselves, complete. In a way, it's as if their Spiritwebs are broken too. It's in the name - they were violently broken from their original state. No Shard is pure by itself, as all were meant to be part of a greater whole. Adonalsium wasn't just Honor and Cultivation and Preservation. Adonalsium was all of the Shards, not just the nice ones. Of course the nastier, harsher ones look worse to us, but in the end, all are imperfect and fail.

Anyways, sorry for the rant there. Kinda got on a roll at 11:48pm :D

Y'all have a great night/day/afternoon, and as always, smiley for a long post :) 

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On 12/27/2020 at 11:13 AM, Vessel of Theory said:
Spoiler

Dalinar: Yo, thanks for going on the mission.

Adolin: Dude why tho, it's important.

Dalinar: Well, you're not worthy.

Adolin: You're one to talk.

Dalinar: Lad, chill. Listen bud, I'm Radiant, your mom's Radiant, your cousin's Radiant, your brother's Radiant, your friend's Radiant, your wife's Radiant.

Adolin: What are you saying? I'm just not good enough? After everything, I'm not enough?

Dalinar: Well, yes. Ya gotta be Radiant kiddo.

This passage kind of got me thinking, maybe this is that odd breed of foreshadowing so favored by Sanderson. And thus my Intent consumed my humble Vessel, and *poof* we have a theory :). And it made me very, very angry, because Dalinar... come on! Adolin's upset that you killed his mom and never mentioned it. He has perfectly justified reasons for not being happy with you, and this flawed belief of Dalinar's that someone has to be Radiant to be "worthy" really just sounds like him jabbing back at his son, who's always been there for him.

I did not interpret their conversation that way. I don't think Dalinar was implying that Adolin isn't worthy unless he becomes radiant, but that he thinks Adolin is worthy enough to be radiant and wants him to become one because, let's face it, Radiants are more capable and able in war than a normal dude and it makes sense he would want his son to be one.

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22 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I did not interpret their conversation that way. I don't think Dalinar was implying that Adolin isn't worthy unless he becomes radiant, but that he thinks Adolin is worthy enough to be radiant and wants him to become one because, let's face it, Radiants are more capable and able in war than a normal dude and it makes sense he would want his son to be one.

That's air, I suppose. We agree, though, that Dalinar wishes Adolin was a Radiant? 

Anyway, that passage was more included because it made me unhappy. I can look at it another way now, so thanks :) 

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1 hour ago, Vessel of Theory said:

That's air, I suppose. We agree, though, that Dalinar wishes Adolin was a Radiant? 

Anyway, that passage was more included because it made me unhappy. I can look at it another way now, so thanks :) 

Oh, yeah, he totally does. Can't blame him. He doesn't want to see their kid become something just short of immortal, especially when you consider him a better person than you? He doesn't want Adolin to become something he doesn't want to or can't become; he thinks he is already worthy of being one and that on the mission, a spren will choose him finally.

Also, glad I was able to grant you another interpretation.

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On 30.12.2020 at 9:13 PM, teknopathetic said:

I would bet Adolin dies. This frees up Shallan for the back half and keeps the number of characters lower. It also thrusts Renarin into the forefront. 

As much as I don't like him to die, I agree with you that it's highly probable, and Adolin is the most likely to die of all main characters. :( 

Also, if anyone gets Honor (I really don't think Honor+Odium), my bets are on Dalinar and Kaladin.

I think Odium will stay with Vargo for the next 5-6 books, until he dies (well, dies more) and it gets Splintered or merged into some Multishard. Unless… Thaidakar, maybe?

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45 minutes ago, Eri said:

As much as I don't like him to die, I agree with you that it's highly probable, and Adolin is the most likely to die of all main characters. :( 

Also, if anyone gets Honor (I really don't think Honor+Odium), my bets are on Dalinar and Kaladin.

I think Odium will stay with Vargo for the next 5-6 books, until he dies (well, dies more) and it gets Splintered or merged into some Multishard. Unless… Thaidakar, maybe?

Sure, that's great, but why? Is the reasoning for Dalinar/Kaladin/Thaidakar better than the reasoning for Adolin? TBH, I just wanna know the reasoning. Mmm, tasty theories.

On 12/30/2020 at 2:13 PM, teknopathetic said:

I would bet Adolin dies. This frees up Shallan for the back half and keeps the number of characters lower. It also thrusts Renarin into the forefront. 

I'd be very unhappy if Adolin dies. I could see it happening, yes. However, Renarin is already making his entrance, really stepping into his own, as a Truthwatcher that the mistspren listen to. Also, the seeing the future. Also, the clouding Odium's sight of those near him. Very useful things indeed.

I picture more of a scenario where Shallan(and maybe Adolin) kinda go off to do their own thing(important, of course, but not on the current plot path), while all/most of our other MCs do the main plot thing, whatever it is at that time. I guess I just like Adolin, and the Adolin + Shallan dynamic, and don't want that to go away. 

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@Vessel of Theory I don't like typing the same thing twice, so here's a link to my thoughts on Adolin (+ other stuff) and on who'll get the Shards. Adolin is just… he isn't connected with Honor a lot (exhibit one: backstabbed Torol Sadeas) nor with Odium (he is emotional at times, but nor passionate enough to fit with Odium), nor is he particularly Connected to any Shard IMO, except maybe Cultivation.

PS: I don't feel like we have a character fit for the unified Roshar Multishard. Maybe Venli after some more character growth. But now I don't think we have a good candidate.

Edited by Eri
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2 hours ago, Eri said:

(exhibit one: backstabbed Torol Sadeas)

He did that because Sadeas repeatedly stated his intent to continue betraying Dalinar at every possible opportunity, knowing that this risked humanity itself, purely because Sadeas wanted power + screwing over Dalinar that storming much.  Adolin spent months at least with that cremling deliberately trying to piss him off even after the Tower battle, and didn't make a single aggressive move outside of Dalinar's carefully-constructed plan to trap Sadeas.  Honestly, I think that murdering Sadeas was justified in that case, Sadeas was more than happy to put his personal power and his personal meaningless victory over Dalinar, ahead of the future of his entire species.  

Edited by GroundPetrel
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1 hour ago, GroundPetrel said:

Honestly, I think that murdering Sadeas was justified in that case, Sadeas was more than happy to put his personal power and his personal meaningless victory over Dalinar, ahead of the future of his entire species.  

I'm not saying that it was evil, I'm just saying it was (the murder and the exact manner of doing it) quite un-lawful, speaking in D&D alignment terms. And Honor isn't a Shard of general goodness, it's a Shard of oaths and rules. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's definitely lawful. That's why I don't see Adolin as well-aligned with its Intent.

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36 minutes ago, Eri said:

I'm not saying that it was evil, I'm just saying it was (the murder and the exact manner of doing it) quite un-lawful, speaking in D&D alignment terms. And Honor isn't a Shard of general goodness, it's a Shard of oaths and rules. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's definitely lawful. That's why I don't see Adolin as well-aligned with its Intent.

Honor is also clearly flexible enough to recognize good actions > lawful actions (see: Lift, Lightweavers).  Preservation is the static Lawful Stupid one, I personally think that Adolin's actions do fit within Honor's purview.  

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16 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Honor is also clearly flexible enough to recognize good actions > lawful actions (see: Lift, Lightweavers).  Preservation is the static Lawful Stupid one, I personally think that Adolin's actions do fit within Honor's purview.  

I agree about Preservation, but still hold my opinion about Honor. Lift is much more in sync with Cultivation, and various Radiant orders have various degree of Honor/Cultivation. I don't think Lightweavers are strongly of Honor.

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1 hour ago, Eri said:

I agree about Preservation, but still hold my opinion about Honor. Lift is much more in sync with Cultivation, and various Radiant orders have various degree of Honor/Cultivation. I don't think Lightweavers are strongly of Honor.

Even if we go by the ring and posit that Bondsmiths have the most Honor and Truthwatchers the most Cultivation (questionable, IMO), Lightweavers (and Edgedancers for that matter) still use Honor's Investiture unless specifically altered by Cultivation.  The only Truth that Lightweavers are bound to is their own, they can lie all they like in pursuit of their mission and Shallan explicitly states that she can flat-out ignore oaths not part of her bond with Pattern without a problem.  That might indicate more Cultivation influence, or it might indicate Honor understanding that sometimes deception can be used honorably--which also fits with the general theme of Radiants in general as tempering their idealism with just enough pragmatism to function in an imperfect world.  (c.f. Kaladin's Fourth Ideal, the way that Teft explains the First Ideal to Kaladin in TWOK)

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38 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Even if we go by the ring and posit that Bondsmiths have the most Honor and Truthwatchers the most Cultivation (questionable, IMO), Lightweavers (and Edgedancers for that matter) still use Honor's Investiture unless specifically altered by Cultivation.  The only Truth that Lightweavers are bound to is their own, they can lie all they like in pursuit of their mission and Shallan explicitly states that she can flat-out ignore oaths not part of her bond with Pattern without a problem.  That might indicate more Cultivation influence, or it might indicate Honor understanding that sometimes deception can be used honorably--which also fits with the general theme of Radiants in general as tempering their idealism with just enough pragmatism to function in an imperfect world.  (c.f. Kaladin's Fourth Ideal, the way that Teft explains the First Ideal to Kaladin in TWOK)

 

1 hour ago, Eri said:

I agree about Preservation, but still hold my opinion about Honor. Lift is much more in sync with Cultivation, and various Radiant orders have various degree of Honor/Cultivation. I don't think Lightweavers are strongly of Honor.

 

Okay, y'all, here's my final thoughts on this. I don't want to have a big 'ol argument, so thanks @Eri for the thread link.

As Taravangian so helpfully demonstrated, to embrace a Shard you have to understand it. There are numerous examples of people acting in accordance with ech of the Shards' Intents, but IMO, Adolin's experiences are the most impactful. While it's true that he killed Sadeas, which may or may not fit under Odium, he certainly tried not to. He did everything he could as a human being to respect Honor(law, oaths, etc). He failed in the end, but failure teaches. He may have acted out in passionate anger, which is why I listed this under Odium, but it does not, IMO, negate his attempt at following the path of Honor. 

I'm not saying I believe this will happen, just that I hope it will. I think there's evidence to support it, but in the end, I doubt I'll predict Sanderson's decision. I'd be saying this no matter what, just because I'm not one of those Shards with futuresight, unfortunately.

To summarize: I believe that Adolin has embodied and will continue to embody each of the Rosharan Shards, and because of this, I believe that Adolin understands and is the best candidate for said Shards.

It makes me very happy to see that people care about Adolin, even though he didn't get to do much in RoW :( 

Keep on theorizing, everyone. Here's a smiley for a kinda long post :) 

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11 hours ago, Vessel of Theory said:

It makes me very happy to see that people care about Adolin, even though he didn't get to do much in RoW :( 

Dead woman screaming at everyone in his defense and a ton of shocked honorspren …?

I agree he didn't get a lot of screentime, but the time he got was IMO very impactful and emotionally satysfying. Compare him to Dalinar, for example, who had similar or more screentime, but much less awesome in this book.

@GroundPetrel  I think this WoB gives more detail about the overall vibe of Honor as Shard.

Quote

The other bulk of it is, the level to which Kaladin tries to protect, the level to which Kaladin exemplifies the Ideals of the Windrunners, and indeed of the way that Honor would have all Knights Radiant act, is so over the top, in alignment with the way Honor would like it to be, that it could even be considered unhealthy. Remember, Honor didn't always encourage healthy relationships with things like the power, particularly later in his existence. So either way, Kaladin is just kind of extra aligned with that intent, if that makes any sense.

I think Kaladin is officially the Honor-est person in the book. I love Adolin, but for a happy future, I think he's much more likely to go worldhopping (Adolin Kholin, the interplanetary fashion critic! I would love to see him roast Wax's fashion choices. ).

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On 12/28/2020 at 11:49 PM, Vessel of Theory said:

Okay, just to have the debate, I'm gonna say something. But first, just to clarify, I very much do not like Odium's Intent. It seems to me that, unbridled and unchecked, it cannot be wielded without disastrous effect on the Cosmere. Whether or not the passion is intended for good or evil, decimation will come of it in the end.

 

The Fused say, repeatedly, that Odium is not hate but passion. Hate is but one of Odium's many facets, as it is passionate anger(might be the wrong emotion, but I'm not trying to be spot-on here, just provide example). It's nice to connect hate with murder, but, as we saw with Ruin and Preservation, one Shard is only stronger than another if they are less Invested into a particular place. Odium has been Investing plenty of things, and so have the other Shards, so it's hard to say whether Rayse's finished rampage through the other Shards is due to distraction or simple incompetence. We hear over and over again from everyone who knew Rayse that he wasn't the smartest. Someone with poor logical habits would be particularly susceptible, IMO, to rash actions, such as breaking peace and fighting the only other things that could kill you.

But back to the discussion at hand. If Rayse was an ambitious fool, to put it bluntly, then it makes sense that if he was empassioned for who knows how long(not me ;) ),  he'd take it out on the other Shards. Taravangian, however, is a much more logical Vessel. We can't say that this makes him more dangerous, because, at then end of the day, a Chasmfiend is no better opponent than a Sleepless. One is smart, the other is, well, not smart. Fighting either would be disastrous.

What I'm trying to say is that Odium is useful. Passion can be used to motivate, to achieve goals. When you're sitting around doing nothing, you're unfulfilled(I expect). However, if you feel passionate and hop onto the 17th Shard, you're suddenly much more fulfilled( ;) ). Passion by itself is, IMO, indisputably dangerous. However, if it was bound to Honor and Cultivation... Can you imagine how much would be accomplished? You suddenly have a Shard that is able, willing, and motivated to help and grow stuff, for lack of a better word. It isn't hard to imagine the problems with any of the other Shards, either.

As I'm feeling passionately daring, I'll take this one step further. None of the Shards are, by themselves, complete. In a way, it's as if their Spiritwebs are broken too. It's in the name - they were violently broken from their original state. No Shard is pure by itself, as all were meant to be part of a greater whole. Adonalsium wasn't just Honor and Cultivation and Preservation. Adonalsium was all of the Shards, not just the nice ones. Of course the nastier, harsher ones look worse to us, but in the end, all are imperfect and fail.

Anyways, sorry for the rant there. Kinda got on a roll at 11:48pm :D

Y'all have a great night/day/afternoon, and as always, smiley for a long post :) 

Hate is not always a bad thing, how about hating injustice or cruelty.

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