Some chaotic theories regarding Shards, Lights and their respective colors and tones

[GeorgiPeev Darkeyes]

So it all started from me and a friend of mine doing some unintentional brainstorming session, and we came up to some conclusions, so I got curious if any of you can either confirm or dismiss the stuff we thought out.

So, I had read the post here that states about all the possible mixing of different Lights. This started this digging into the rabbit hole.

So, let's say all 16 /now 15/ Shards can have their own Light. The three base Lights we know, Stormlight, Voidlight and Lifelight all have their respective colors - almost pure white with a light blue nuance for Stormlight, purple for Voidlight and white with a green nuance for Lifelight. This would mean that all Shards should have their respective colors too. But these pure lights, or manifestation of Investiture, what we see in our physical realm, are inherently from the Spiritual Realm which means... there should be 16 colors making up the Spiritual Realm? Is it possible that this is the reason why the colors on Nalthis have such a significant role/meaning in the magic system/form of Investiture there? Also, would that mean that Adonalsium's color should be absolutely pure white (pretty alike to the physics of the splitting of light through a prism in the real world - all of the color spectrum combined gives us the white light we see). Also, as everything that is in the Cosmere had been created by Adonalsium, this would mean that Adonalsium Anti-Light, given the proper endless amount of quantity... could theoretically wipe out the whole Cosmere? Or at least be used on a smaller scale (system, planet, continent, city, etc.). Like, the normal anti-Lights can destroy their respective Light/Investiture. But everything, every single object in the Cosmere, even if it's not Invested at any kind by the current Shards - for example a single rock, had once been created by Adonalsium, by Adonalsium's very Investiture, so it could... could it just be destroyed by Adonalsium anti-Light? I know I am far-stretching here but it seems kinda logical to me. Next comes the question - is it possible, and how, to create Adonalsium anti-Light when the Shard is splintered and basically does not exist anymore?

Also, another quick theory - every Shard has their own respective Pure Tone. We so far know Odium's, Honor's and Cultivation's but every Shard should have their own. Here comes the question though - what happens when two shards combine - like for Harmony? Is their tone analogical to what we got with Warlight - a MIX between the two tones (in this example Honor's and Odium's), just that it becomes the new Pure Tone, or do we get a totally different one? Because in the first case, it would technically not be a *pure* tone, rather a *mix* between two pure tones. And if we get upper and upper through the chain, this would mean that... there was once... a Pure Tone of Adonalsium. The Pure Tone of the Cosmere. Can it still be obtained/sung? Can it be used in some way? 

Then, a third theory struck me - as Shards can both combine and splinter, I think it is possible that Brandon intentionally made it so Taravangian is the new Vessel of Odium because he is obviously a masterful planner. So - what if TOdium takes it a step further than ROdium and instead of wanting to simply destroy the other Shards and rule himself... he now wants to combine all the Shards restoring himself Adonalsium meaning that he becomes... the Vessel of Adonalsium? This definitely sounds like something he would do - this would give him the unlimited power to shape the Cosmere as he wishes, everything according to his plans and no obstacles.

[LewsTherinTelescope Envisager]

On 12/25/2020 at 4:56 PM, GeorgiPeev said:

But everything, every single object in the Cosmere, even if it's not Invested at any kind by the current Shards - for example a single rock, had once been created by Adonalsium, by Adonalsium's very Investiture, so it could... could it just be destroyed by Adonalsium anti-Light?

Raysium can carry anti-Voidlight just fine, which makes me think anti-Light is much more specific in what it destroys than that.

[Aspiring Writer Full Feruchemist]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Raysium can carry anti-Voidlight just fine, which makes me think anti-Light is much more specific in what it destroys than that.

The gemstone carries it, not the actual metal, and even if the two interact, one is a gaseous form and the other is solid, so their interactions would not be the same as two gases interacting.

Talking about this does make me wonder what a would anti-light of let's say void light would do to stormlight. Can anti-light delete light beside the one it specifically anti to? How would that interaction go?

[LewsTherinTelescope Envisager]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

he gemstone carries it, not the actual metal

The way killing with the dagger works is it flows out of the gem, going through the metal.

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

one is a gaseous form and the other is solid

I mean, that applies to anti-Light and random rocks as well.

2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

what a would anti-light of let's say void light would do to stormlight

Personally, I think it would exactly like normal Voidlight when interacting with other Lights, but I have no evidence to back this up, just a gut feeling.

[Leuthie Shade]

 

On 12/25/2020 at 2:56 PM, GeorgiPeev said:

Like, the normal anti-Lights can destroy their respective Light/Investiture. But everything, every single object in the Cosmere, even if it's not Invested at any kind by the current Shards - for example a single rock, had once been created by Adonalsium, by Adonalsium's very Investiture, so it could... could it just be destroyed by Adonalsium anti-Light? I know I am far-stretching here but it seems kinda logical to me. Next comes the question - is it possible, and how, to create Adonalsium anti-Light when the Shard is splintered and basically does not exist anymore?

A single rock is no longer Investiture. If it is an Invested rock, the correct anti-light would annihilate that Investiture. However, anti-light would do nothing to the rock. Anti-light doesn't destroy matter or energy. It only cancels out the specific Investiture it is based on.

Quote

The way killing with the dagger works is it flows out of the gem, going through the metal.

The metal can be used as a conduit. So can air.

Raysium isn't Investiture. It's Matter. Anti-light doesn't do anything with Matter. God metals have certain properties, but they aren't, themselves, Investiture. Lerasium and Atium have to be "burned" like any other Scandrian metal. The result is the same as burning a normal metal: a specific ability is unlocked and the person "burning" the metal becomes a conduit for the Investiture required. 

Edited January 6 by Leuthie

[chickenperson Noble-Blooded]

On 12/25/2020 at 4:56 PM, GeorgiPeev said:

Also, another quick theory - every Shard has their own respective Pure Tone. We so far know Odium's, Honor's and Cultivation's but every Shard should have their own. Here comes the question though - what happens when two shards combine - like for Harmony? Is their tone analogical to what we got with Warlight - a MIX between the two tones (in this example Honor's and Odium's), just that it becomes the new Pure Tone, or do we get a totally different one? Because in the first case, it would technically not be a *pure* tone, rather a *mix* between two pure tones. And if we get upper and upper through the chain, this would mean that... there was once... a Pure Tone of Adonalsium. The Pure Tone of the Cosmere. Can it still be obtained/sung? Can it be used in some way? 

I think it would be awfully poetic for a combined shard like Harmony to be two tones at the same time, in harmony. Right now though I think it’s more likely to be an average of the two frequencies, meeting in the middle and singing in unison if that makes sense. But I’m not entirely sure on that one. As for the pure tone of Adonalsium, the theory that has both tones at once would make more sense. When you combine them all you end up with this big chord all playing at once, each note distinct but working together for one sound. 

[LewsTherinTelescope Envisager]

On 1/6/2021 at 0:59 PM, Leuthie said:

God metals have certain properties, but they aren't, themselves, Investiture.

Yes, they are:

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Chaos

Is atium Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it--

Chaos

Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle.

Brandon Sanderson

Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness.

...

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

On 1/6/2021 at 0:59 PM, Leuthie said:

Lerasium and Atium have to be "burned" like any other Scandrian metal. The result is the same as burning a normal metal: a specific ability is unlocked and the person "burning" the metal becomes a conduit for the Investiture required. 

Not quite, actually. When a god metal is burned, rather than drawing from Preservation, the metal itself, which is made of Investiture, is used to fuel the effect:

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Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010)

 

[Truthless16 Ardent]

I don't think that all of the shards have lights, I was under the impression that the lights and pure tones of Roshar are unique to Roshar.

[Leuthie Shade]

1 hour ago, Truthless16 said:

I don't think that all of the shards have lights, I was under the impression that the lights and pure tones of Roshar are unique to Roshar.

It would be hard to show on many worlds. Sel Investiture is chaotic due to being locked in the Cognitive realm. Scadrian Investiture is held closely by Harmony and doled out through closed systems. Taldain Investiture seems a bit more out in the open and may be more testable for tones. Nalthis Investiture is locked behind colors and Breaths. Aethers and whatever is on Ashyn we don't know about.

Roshar is the only place where Investiture flows freely and is part of the geology, ecology and zoology. "Light" is free Investiture, so you're partly right there. However, it's strange that all three types of Investiture have Lights, anti-Lights and Tones. I would assume, should other Investiture be testable in the same ways Navani and Raboniel did, they would have their own Lights, Anti-lights and Tones, as well...at least on Roshar.

I think Brandon is using this series to show us how this stuff works Cosmere-wide. There are different ways of accessing the Investiture on different planets, but all Investiture has the same set of properties and should be compatible with the things Navani and Raboniel discovered.

[Truthless16 Ardent]

I think that on Scadrial the mists are the counterpart to the lights of Roshar, we know that they are both gaseous investiture. This would mean that there are similarities between the different sharworlds but none are exactly the same. One thing that is important is that solid investiture is always metal, this is true on all sharworlds.

[Leuthie Shade]

I always forget about the Mists. But there are two mists now: one light that represents Preservation's power and one dark that represents Ruin's power. So there is some semblance of color there. The Well of Ascension gave off a rhythm. I'm willing to bet each mist would respond to a different tone, and be repelled by an anti-tone. We just haven't seen these on screen, yet.

[Kyn Cobalt Guard]

Is there an in-text or WoB reason this thread refers to Lights as a "gaseous" Investiture? They definitely get described like steam a lot, but I thought that was a consequence of Investiture semi-solidifying, not a characteristic of the Light itself. Are they more like the Mists and less like actual light than I was thinking?

[Leuthie Shade]

31 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Is there an in-text or WoB reason this thread refers to Lights as a "gaseous" Investiture? They definitely get described like steam a lot, but I thought that was a consequence of Investiture semi-solidifying, not a characteristic of the Light itself. Are they more like the Mists and less like actual light than I was thinking?

I think the mists hang around as they do because the ecology of Scandrial has no use for them. Roshar's ecology and Stormlight have a cyclical relationship. Stormlight is always being used and cycled through. If Stormlight isn't stored in a gem, it dissipates into the system immediately. Even a gem just makes it dissipate more slowly. This has to do with the world itself and the Connections involved. Scadrial doesn't require Investiture, so the mists just hang around.

At least that's how I interpret it all.

[Truthless16 Ardent]

4 hours ago, Kyn said:

Is there an in-text or WoB reason this thread refers to Lights as a "gaseous" Investiture? They definitely get described like steam a lot, but I thought that was a consequence of Investiture semi-solidifying, not a characteristic of the Light itself. Are they more like the Mists and less like actual light than I was thinking?

Stormlight is called light, but i read it as being a form of mist.

[Kyn Cobalt Guard]

Well, Navani agrees with the mist interpretation in RoW:

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Sometimes I think of it like a gas, she thought, taking notes on the speed of the flow. And sometimes a liquid. I keep wavering between the two, trying to define it, but it must be neither one. Stormlight is something else, with some of the properties of both a liquid and a gas.

-Brandon Sanderson, Rhythm of War ch. 69

it’s possible she’s a little off, but she’s the most knowledgeable in-world source we’ve gotten that much detail from. I’d say that’s good evidence.

I do wonder if she’s just trying to triangulate a way to talk about it, or maybe getting at some deeper property of Light like mundane light’s wave/particle duality.

…Sorry to derail. I just thought, if Light behaved more like light, we might be able to make better guesses about how likely it is for something like an anti-Adonalsium Light to exist. Or to predict how it might behave.

Without that parallel relationship, our best bet for figuring out anything about Adonalsium’s tones would be extrapolation from Shards, not real-world physics. Like, knowing whether the Pure Tones of dead Shards stop working, or of combined Shards change, would be necessary first steps to deciding whether the OP was on the right track. At least regarding the possibility of an anti-Adonalsium tone, if not exactly what that would do to other pure tones, let alone normal matter.

[Lunu’anaki Gyorn]

On the mist/light comparison: I wonder if a radiant could breath in mists and use them like stormlight? Maybe with a duralumin metalmind or something as an aid?

[Octopi314 Bridgeman]

On the topic of tones, when you burn bronze, you here a "rhythm" coming from people using allomancy. There are variations in the tone for each of the different metals. Are there different "versions" of Honor's tones in accordance to the different surges/orders?

Also, could you use bronze in a fabrial (like how Navani uses other metals) to be able to enhance the rhythms of different lights? Could you use copper to hide those rhythms?

Could a Seeker also perhaps, sense other shard tones?

Edited January 18 by Octopi314

[LewsTherinTelescope Envisager]

20 hours ago, Octopi314 said:

There are variations in the tone for each of the different metals.

There are variations in the rhythms of the metals, but I don't believe a difference in tone was ever described, was it? Marsh describes three things to identify a metal: pulse length, metal group (pulse pattern), and "Push-Pull variance" (which is just it feels like it's either pushing against you or pulling you towards it).

Quote

“Pulse length, metal group, and Push-Pull variance—once you know these three things, you will be able to tell exactly which metals your opponent is burning. A long pulse that beats against you and has a quick pattern will be pewter—the internal Pushing physical metal.”

(TFE 20)

20 hours ago, Octopi314 said:

Could a Seeker also perhaps, sense other shard tones?

Sounds like it.

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Aethenoth

Can an Allomantic bronze burner hear the Rhythms on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is possible.

General Signed Books 2016 (May 2, 2016)

I imagine that's how this works (no idea what the "tweak" is, though):

Quote

zas678

Can you detect Feruchemy with bronze Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually possible but it's very difficult. There's a tweak that you need to do to make it work and I haven't talked about that yet. They do not know how to do it… on Scadrial. But you can theoretically detect all kinds of active Investiture. Investiture that's being used. Kinetic Investiture would be the way to call it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

[basement_boi Noble]

On 1/9/2021 at 1:55 AM, Lunu’anaki said:

On the mist/light comparison: I wonder if a radiant could breath in mists and use them like stormlight? Maybe with a duralumin metalmind or something as an aid?

I don’t think that would be possible. Lift can’t use Stormlight, and other Radiants can’t use Lifelight. God metals have Allomantic effect as a result of the way Allomancy works, taking matter and converting it into Investiture. Surgebinding is meant to have a limited number of effects. The effects just depend on what spren you bond.

[Lunu’anaki Gyorn]

3 hours ago, basement_boi said:

I don’t think that would be possible. Lift can’t use Stormlight, and other Radiants can’t use Lifelight. God metals have Allomantic effect as a result of the way Allomancy works, taking matter and converting it into Investiture. Surgebinding is meant to have a limited number of effects. The effects just depend on what spren you bond.

Have we seen an example of Radiants being incapable of using lifelight? Lift might just be incapable of breathing in light like most Radients are. She is an anomaly, so I hesitate to use her as an example for what other radiants could or could not be capable of.

We've seen Venli use Voidlight for Radiant abilities.

[mathiau King's Wit]

3 hours ago, basement_boi said:

I don’t think that would be possible. Lift can’t use Stormlight, and other Radiants can’t use Lifelight. God metals have Allomantic effect as a result of the way Allomancy works, taking matter and converting it into Investiture. Surgebinding is meant to have a limited number of effects. The effects just depend on what spren you bond.

Brandon actually confirmed breaths could be used. The problem with Lift and stormlight is probably just the ability to breath it in.

Quote

Leinton (paraphrased)

Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen.

Questioner (paraphrased)

What would happen to the Breath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like atium is.

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)

[Halyo_Alex Elantrian]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is. A renewing resource, much like atium is.

...And me being me, I now wonder if burning Atium could fuel Surgebinding.

How utterly impractical and wasteful.

[mathiau King's Wit]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

...And me being me, I now wonder if burning Atium could fuel Surgebinding.

How utterly impractical and wasteful.

From how Brandon talks about it, it's likely you can use any metal, and there's a chance you can do things like burn copper to power steel if you're a mistborn but he said powering allomancy with the wrong energy was quite hard

[Halyo_Alex Elantrian]

Just now, mathiau said:

From how Brandon talks about it, it's likely you can use any metal, and there's a chance you can do things like burn copper to power steel if you're a mistborn but he said powering allomancy with the wrong energy was quite hard

I doubt the latter part can be done, simply because the metals are keys to specific powers.

BUT... I do think that a Compounder could store their allomantic effect inside a metalmind, since it's the same metal, and then that reservoir of allomancy would be subject to the same properties as a reservoir of Feruchemical power, i.e. could be drawn out very gently or very forcefully, allowing more precise power output than just "normal" and "flaring" or whatever, kind of like what Zane managed, but with the innate precision of Feruchemy.

[LewsTherinTelescope Envisager]

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Have we seen an example of Radiants being incapable of using lifelight? Lift might just be incapable of breathing in light like most Radients are. She is an anomaly, so I hesitate to use her as an example for what other radiants could or could not be capable of.

Well, Mraize certainly seems to think they can't, and the Fused don't laugh him out of the room for saying it makes Lift special.

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“But if your master does happen to ever locate Cultivation, suggest that he ask her precisely why she made an Edgedancer who is fueled by Lifelight and not Stormlight.” He bowed again—a formal military bow—then withdrew.