Does ‘T’ suit “O”?

[Aon Tia]

The T bomb at the end came out of nowhere!! For all that we had predicted where T is going, this was not what I could have ever foreseen!! 
Cultivation!! What have you done!!? 
“ Now I can save everyone” !!!! I never thought that such words will ever fill me with such dread ! 
 

But all things aside, what I really want to know is,  do you think Taravangian suits the Intent? 
Vargo has shown a lot of things like amorality, mad genius vibe, he is very diabolical, megalomaniac, may be even a little narcissistic ( I think) and he is capable of doing the absolute worst to achieve what he deems right, he has (got) killed so many, caused civil war, backstabbed friends, etc etc. 

But still, I never felt hatred as an emotion from him. Even when he wanted to destroy Dalinar, it was more out of necessity, a (mistaken?) belief that Dalinar can not save them and I have always felt that he does not want Dalinar to save them, he wants to be the one who “saves” them, I have always believed that it is more about his ego than the survival of Roshar, But still I have never felt that hatred is a particularly strong emotion with him. 
So do you think he suits the Intent? Is he going to have trouble connecting with the Intent? Or have I missed to see something very obvious? Any ideas?
 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Aon Tia

[HeyLookItz]

Odium's intent is not just to cause hate but also all passion. Taravangian mentions that on his most intelligent days he barely feels any empathy or passion at all, but on his stupidist days he is sometimes overwhelmed and spends all day crying in his room. Since near the end of RoW taravangian says that his average day is getting less and less intelligent it stands to reason that he is feeling more emotion, which seems to have been cultivations plan. When she talks to him after his ascension he says that "I asked for the capacity to save the world. I thought it was the intelligence, but later I wondered if it was the ability to feel. In the end, it was both. You were preparing me for this."

In summary, taravangian started to fit odium's ideals of passion and emotion more and more as cultivation's blessing changed him. I belive that this is why he will be a good fit for the shard but I don't know if he will continue rayse's goal of helping the singers or not.

[StanLemon]

The issue is that while Odium does represent all passion, fury is described as the prevailing one. Rayse was talking about a war between the Shards as if it was an inevitability though and not just him being an instigator. It makes me wonder if Cultivation herself is also preparing and that she wants to channel that fury from the Shard and the intellect of Taravangian towards any possible future enemies.

[daypast17]

I'm starting to wonder if Cultivation is the true danger. Is she trying to prune the Cosmere itself?

Could she be the "we" in "we killed you"? Betrayed Tan and helped Rayse.

Beware those that claim to see the future... She clearly believes she does.

Another thought... I can think of one great real world evil whos intent was to cultivate... The Nazis

Edited December 24, 2020 by daypast17

[Aon Tia]

3 hours ago, HeyLookItz said:

Odium's intent is not just to cause hate but also all passion.

In summary, taravangian started to fit odium's ideals of passion and emotion more and more as cultivation's blessing changed him. I belive that this is why he will be a good fit for the shard but I don't know if he will continue rayse's goal of helping the singers or not.

Yes true but that is not so simple. Rayse wanted it to be passion or he wanted to be seen as passion but just how very correct his assertion is, I am not so convinced. 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

The issue is that while Odium does represent all passion, fury is described as the prevailing one. 

Yes exactly. I agree that while Rayse might claim whatever he wanted but the truth is that deep seated anger at the core of it, is how Dalinar described it and that is clearly how every other shard and Wit sees it. 
 

3 hours ago, HeyLookItz said:

but I don't know if he will continue rayse's goal of helping the singers or not.

Or If he will continue Rayse’s goal of killing all other shards. Taravangian is too smart to know that this goal will only isolate him and will ultimately cause all others to unite against him. It is hoped that he will be more in control of his shard and he might direct/channel the Intent in a completely way. 
 

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

It makes me wonder if Cultivation herself is also preparing and that she wants to channel that fury from the Shard and the intellect of Taravangian towards any possible future enemies.

This is exactly what I thought when I read this. It feels like she is trying to cultivate the power of god’s own fury and use it against the other side in the forthcoming war of the gods! I think she hopes that T’Odium will be more open to joining her faction and he can be a useful shard to have on your side. 

But I also wonder if T really suits Odium and if he connects with it or he will have problem in using the power. And if that is how Cultivation hopes/ plans to deal with T’Odium if he ever became a problem. 
 

@daypast17 Welcome to the shard. Interesting insights. Yes she seems to be quite the diabolical one herself. Who knows she has dipped her fingers into how many other pies!?

Edited December 24, 2020 by Aon Tia

[Friendshipspren]

Hmmm true I never did think he hated anyone. Although he does have a superiority complex which can easily transform into hatred for those he deems inferior. 

[Banazir864]

Well, there's nothing saying that a shardholder has to fit the Intent of his or her shard.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

From the brief description we get of pre-Ruin Ati ("a kind and generous man"), it doesn't sound like he really fits Ruin, and neither does Sazed.  Conversely, Kelsier and Vin both held Preservation despite neither being suited to it (Vin was expressly stated to have more in common with Ruin, and Kelsier seems to be even moreso, "survival" teachings notwithstanding).

We don't know much about the other shardholders' personalities prior to becoming shardholders:  Rayse was apparently dangerous, and he and Bavadin apparently did something to earn Hoid's enmity, but that's not much to go on.

If anything, my understanding is that Cultivation wanted T to possess Odium because she thought his personality would counteract its Intent.

[starman2995]

5 hours ago, Banazir864 said:

Well, there's nothing saying that a shardholder has to fit the Intent of his or her shard.

First, in the epigraph of chapter 40 from RoW, Harmony has this to say: "My instincts say that the power of Odium is not being controlled well". He elaborates this in the chapter 42 epigraph, where he says, "In truth, it would be a combination of a Vessel’s craftiness and the power’s Intent that we should fear most". If a vessel doesn't fit with the shard's intent, they won't be able to use it as effectively. This is why Sazed is trying to groom a new vessel for harmony, which he mentions in the epigraph of chapter 29. 

To address the point of conflicting personalities holding shards, they do so with limited power, and the power begins to affect them. The reason Vin was as powerful as she was (at least what I think) was because she had practice using preservation's power; her personality not being in line still limited her. As for Ruin, the power of the shard changed his mind to more match it's intent. The closer the vessel's and shard's intent were, the more powerful they were. Later in the chapter 40 epigraph, Harmony said "The Vessel will be adapted to the power’s will. And after this long, if Odium is still seeking to destroy, then it is because of the power", which explains what happened to Ati even though he was kind when he ascended.

I could be reading this wrong, but this is what I've gathered from all the talk of shards that I have read and seen.

[Aon Tia]

@Banazir864 I think it does matter that the vessel has a connection to the Intent of the shard concerned. It matters whether the vessel and the shard are at Harmony with each other or are at discord. Their efficiency will be impacted. 
I have said it before but I think the personality of the vessel is more relevant especially in the beginning. I think in the beginning a vessel has more control over the shard, can exert his wishes more but eventually the shard will always prevail. In the long long run, the shard’s Intent slowly but surely saturate the vessel and assert control. 
 

Mistborn spoilers :

Quote

Spoiler

 

It is clearly mentioned that Kelsier was unable to harness the power of preservation because it was more of Ruin. 
Vin was more of preservation and had been the potential candidate chosen by Laras himself. Her whole arc is about survival, preserving the ska, the world, etc. What you refer to is the fact that humans in general have a little bit of both preservation and ruin in them. 

 

5 hours ago, starman2995 said:

If a vessel doesn't fit with the shard's intent, they won't be able to use it as effectively.

Agreed here. 
 

5 hours ago, starman2995 said:

This is why Sazed is trying to groom a new vessel for harmony, which he mentions in the epigraph of chapter 29. 

There you go @Friendshipspren you have a supporter here. 
@starman2995 I personally think that Harmony is looking for an agent, a champion so to speak who can act on his behalf. And not for a new vessel. 
I think it will be too risky for him to trust anyone else to hold two shards 

Mistborn spoilers: 

Spoiler

Especially when one of them is Ruin

 

[Friendshipspren]

@Aon Tia yay . Thanks . Ah u went up to kalad's phantom too. Noice

@starman2995 hey dude I believe harmony is looking for a new vessel too. One who can interpret and utilise the shard better. Let's c.

Mistborn spoilers :

Spoiler

I think the current vessel of harmony, Sazed  is the kind of person to actually give up the power to someone else,if he deems that person to be better . Much like Leras giving the power up to vin and later Sazed, even tho he wasn't in the right mind he made the best choice in choosing them. 

Also I feel Sazed is really tired of being the shard. He says in one of the epigraphs that hoid was wise to not become a vessel. 

Therefore I really do think he's looking for a successor.

The argument that it's too dangerous to trust  the Shard with anyone else is faulty.  He's a shard , he can spend ages trying to look for a successor and observing thier entire lives to see if they can be trusted. 

Also unlike the Shard of Odium , Harmony or even Discord isn't that dangerous an intent in comparison. Odium is by it's very definition ,a volatile and destructive shard. 

I can see Discord can be slightly dangerous too , but not to the extent of Odium, Ruin or possibly even Dominion  or Ambition. 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Friendshipspren
A little polishing

[coolsnow7]

On 12/23/2020 at 10:02 PM, Aon Tia said:

The T bomb at the end came out of nowhere!! For all that we had predicted where T is going, this was not what I could have ever foreseen!! 
Cultivation!! What have you done!!? 
“ Now I can save everyone” !!!! I never thought that such words will ever fill me with such dread ! 
 

But all things aside, what I really want to know is,  do you think Taravangian suits the Intent? 
Vargo has shown a lot of things like amorality, mad genius vibe, he is very diabolical, megalomaniac, may be even a little narcissistic ( I think) and he is capable of doing the absolute worst to achieve what he deems right, he has (got) killed so many, caused civil war, backstabbed friends, etc etc. 

But still, I never felt hatred as an emotion from him. Even when he wanted to destroy Dalinar, it was more out of necessity, a (mistaken?) belief that Dalinar can not save them and I have always felt that he does not want Dalinar to save them, he wants to be the one who “saves” them, I have always believed that it is more about his ego than the survival of Roshar, But still I have never felt that hatred is a particularly strong emotion with him. 
So do you think he suits the Intent? Is he going to have trouble connecting with the Intent? Or have I missed to see something very obvious? Any ideas?
 

At the root of a lot of narcissism is hatred IMO. So on some level I actually think they’re compatible in an unconscious way.

Still the purpose of the Sazed epigraph is to tell us “you don’t need to worry about the personality being compatible with the intent, what you need to worry about is the personality arming the Shardic intent with the tools it needs to succeed.”

The question (at a minimum, according to Sazed) of the compatibility of Odium with T is interesting but kind of irrelevant. TOdium is set up as basically the most dangerous force for destruction that a Shard can be. 

[coolsnow7]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:19 PM, HeyLookItz said:

Odium's intent is not just to cause hate but also all passion.

This is not true, and there’s WoB to that effect. I’ll see if I can find it.

 

EDIT: I think this is the one, but if not, there’s one that R’Shara and Karger cite every time we go down this dead end. 
 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e12312

Edited December 29, 2020 by coolsnow7

[Grytorm]

I think RoW provides strong evidence that Odium's intent is a little more complicated than hate and anger all the time. Those are the dominant emotions but Odium has some connection to other emotions.

Personally I think that Odium is fundamentally tied into breaking Connections and this manifests as hatred towards all that would restrain the shard. Other "Passionate" emotions are fundamentally emotions loosed from all restraint.

Also Taravangian's intelligent days make me think of Moash and his general lack of emotions. Both sides of his capacity can be aligned wiyh Odium.

[Aon Tia]

I don’t know how much I feel your answer. Can you please elaborate the part where you felt that RoW showed a wider range of emotions from Odium? 
 

But going by your answer it means that Cultivation tweaked Taravangian in a way that he artificially became attuned to the intent of Odium. Which yea she probably did! I don’t know just how smart a thing that was to do! 

[Grytorm]

What I mean is that other emotions are shown to play a role in the Shard of Odium. When it comes up the fury and hate are aknowledged as the dominant forces of the Shard but there is some other stuff going on. I remember this occurring in three places.

The least relevant is Sja Anet's interlude when she observes that, "The mind did not like being questioned, but the power... It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion." (RoW pg something).

Then there are the observations of Taravangian as he ascends. "Passion. Hatred. Today Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him." (RoW pg something). And, "The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotions, passion, and --most deeply-- the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound." (RoW pg something)

And there was one more bit but I don't remember excactly where but it was along the lines of [something][loved?] all emotions but particularily the ones that happened when people struggled.

Just these bits and things like the description of Nergaoul and Ashertman in Oathbringer say to me that while calling the power Odium describes the core idea of the Shard there is some other stuff that isn't captured in that name.

 

The void gnaws,

At chains of passion.

Hatefully,

Passion chains,

The gnawing void.

[LordFlea]

On 2/1/2021 at 3:13 PM, Grytorm said:

I think RoW provides strong evidence that Odium's intent is a little more complicated than hate and anger all the time. Those are the dominant emotions but Odium has some connection to other emotions.

Personally I think that Odium is fundamentally tied into breaking Connections and this manifests as hatred towards all that would restrain the shard. Other "Passionate" emotions are fundamentally emotions loosed from all restraint.

Also Taravangian's intelligent days make me think of Moash and his general lack of emotions. Both sides of his capacity can be aligned wiyh Odium.

I think at its core its something of Superego and Id.

 

"The superego is the ethical component of the personality and provides the moral standards by which the ego operates. The superego's criticisms, prohibitions, and inhibitions form a person's conscience, and its positive aspirations and ideals represent one's idealized self-image, or 'ego ideal'."

"The Id is the instinctual component of personality that is present at birth, and is the source of bodily needs and wants, emotional impulses and desires, especially aggression and the libido (sex drive).

 

Odium is Id and Honour Superego. Odium is about seizing the needs and wants, the drives and passions that fill us from time to time. Honour is bout observing what is "right" and abiding that rather then acting off impulse

 

This is a small part of the whole picture but I think there is some truth in it

 

[+Child of Hodor]

On 1/31/2021 at 11:20 PM, Grytorm said:

What I mean is that other emotions are shown to play a role in the Shard of Odium. When it comes up the fury and hate are aknowledged as the dominant forces of the Shard but there is some other stuff going on. I remember this occurring in three places.

The least relevant is Sja Anet's interlude when she observes that, "The mind did not like being questioned, but the power... It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion." (RoW pg something).

Then there are the observations of Taravangian as he ascends. "Passion. Hatred. Today Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him." (RoW pg something). And, "The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotions, passion, and --most deeply-- the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound." (RoW pg something)

And there was one more bit but I don't remember excactly where but it was along the lines of [something][loved?] all emotions but particularily the ones that happened when people struggled.

Just these bits and things like the description of Nergaoul and Ashertman in Oathbringer say to me that while calling the power Odium describes the core idea of the Shard there is some other stuff that isn't captured in that name.

 

"It's the thrill of the fight" - Eye of the Tiger, Survivor. Good quotes and that seems on point with the idea that the Shard embodies emotions surrounding struggle and conflict. It is the Void that sucks in other emotions, seemingly as fuel for hatred. Ashertman is pleasure/joy run amuck. Feasting, partying and implied sexual acts were happening at that revel in OB. 

On 12/28/2020 at 8:09 PM, coolsnow7 said:

This is not true, and there’s WoB to that effect. I’ll see if I can find it.

 

EDIT: I think this is the one, but if not, there’s one that R’Shara and Karger cite every time we go down this dead end. 
 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e12312

The RoW quotes in Grytorm's post above when Taravangian picks up the Shard indicate that it is more than hatred. Cultivation "tempted" the power by making Taravangian cry all day more often than not for the last year. The Taravangian the power called "perfect" was a weepy sad sack, not a rage-monster. So it does like other emotions. 

You're right that it's Odium and not Passion, it's mainly about the hatred. Rayse's insistence on thinking of it / himself as Passion, living in denial of the Odium's main purpose, is part of why he could not control the Power very well and it developed a mind of it's own.  

[+mdross81]

Don’t have much to add. Just gonna drop this Lirin line here because I’ve been looking for the right thread to mention it. (emphasis mine)

Quote

“We need both heart and mind,” Lirin said. “The heart might provide the purpose, but the head provides the method, the path. Passion is nothing without a plan.

[yulyulk]

On 2/3/2021 at 9:02 AM, Child of Hodor said:

Cultivation "tempted" the power by making Taravangian cry all day more often than not for the last year. The Taravangian the power called "perfect" was a weepy sad sack, not a rage-monster. So it does like other emotions. 

Yeah, this is actually remarkable to me. Dumb Taravangian does not feel hatred. He breaks down and cries at the slightest instance of cruelty. The power of Odium being drawn to someone so tender-hearted indicates to me that the vessel could actually be re-interpreted. It's funny because when Rayse was trying to claim that he was Passion, it felt like blatant propaganda, 100% false etc. But the moment of Taravangian's ascension made me think that maybe Rayse wasn't just pulling it out of his ancient a**.

But ascended Taravangian we have seen thus far does not have the capacity (ha) to re-imagine the power of the shard, I think. He knows he picked up Odium and he's treating it as such. Maybe if he becomes aware of Harmony's existence, he can approach the power differently? But narratively speaking, I don't know if that's in the cards for him.

[Elerosse]

The only problem I have with Odium being reinterpreted as Passion is Passion also implies desire in a form of compassion, which is covered by Devotion. Now, if we view Odium as Destruction, "Passion" makes more sense, as the Unmade, which would line up with Odium's intent, seem to line up with destructive acts/desires (Ashertmarn being destruction by excess, etc.).

Long story short, T could be able to almost "change" Destruction to a more noble purpose, almost like he had another shard to temper it.

[Grytorm]

I have never been able to find a satisfactory alternative for Odium. The best I have found are Craving and Impulse which don't feel right.

Fundamentally I think Odium is tied to the breaking of Connection making it very much the opposite of Honor. This drives the vessel to tear apart these bonds manifest as boundless hatred.

The "Passions" are emotions without reason or restraint. This can be seen in the madness which is inspired by Ashertman and Moelech.

[Waffles]

Odium seems to be more about the anger of the gods unleashed. Anger at failures, weakness, opposition, etc.

It seems while Honor had immense power over Connection, Odium has power over Identity - it can preserve identity, steal it, rewrite it, modify it and gain power from it ( or lose power in the case of Lezian)

For Taravangian, Cultivation's curse and its mind shifting seems to have prepared him as a fantastic vessel for Odium. T is conceited, brutal, calculating, cunning, has a malleable Identity and is willing to sacrifice himself or anyone else to serve his vision. I do think Cultivation picked him because he has a blind spot she can exploit and I think it may have to do with her having some control over his Identity so it may be possible she can "unmake" him in some way

Edit: As for what sunk Rayse, think Rayse's flaw is the same as Honor's - that he excluded certain options - he had internal limitations he placed on himself that T doesnt have. Its heavily implied that Rayse was unwilling to pursue certain strategies and frequently clashed with the shard's intent. Idk if this was necessarily the Passions since the desire to fulfill passion is largely the cause of anger - you cant have anger without passion or desire.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Waffles

[Shob the Voidbringer]

On 12/28/2020 at 6:09 PM, coolsnow7 said:

This is not true, and there’s WoB to that effect. I’ll see if I can find it.

 

EDIT: I think this is the one, but if not, there’s one that R’Shara and Karger cite every time we go down this dead end. 
 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e12312

based on this we could theorize that tod could mold the shard to passion instead of odium, which would fit him much better. especially with helpers, such as cultivation.

[Aon Tia]

On 9/2/2021 at 1:30 AM, Shob the Voidbringer said:

based on this we could theorize that tod could mold the shard to passion instead of odium, which would fit him much better. especially with helpers, such as cultivation.

Interesting wob! Part of the reason I started this topic. Because I feel a lot of Passion from Taravangian but not a lot of Hatred. 
So could be part of the plan of Cultivation to steer the power away from destructive hatred. She is trying to cultivate the power into something a little more constructive like passion. 
 

It may or may not work in the long run, but I think in the short run, when the vessel has not yet been fully saturated by the intent of the shard, it might work. 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Aon Tia

[LuckyJim]

Maybe a good question to ask is what exactly is the hatred and fury of Odium going to be pointed at now that Taravangian is the vessel. Assuming that Rayse was wrong, and Odium is a shard of hatred, what exactly is it supposed to be hatred of? The shard of Odium isn't like Ruin, which represented the natural end and decay of all things, it's explicitly related to human emotion, so potentially it could manifest very differently depending on the vessel, and even be a good thing. You can feel hatred towards injustice and oppression and that isn't considered evil, hatred by itself doesn't have to be an inherently bad thing.

In the hands of Rayse, the shard of Odium aligned with his desire to be the most powerful being in the Cosmere, and the hatred was directed towards the other shards and anyone who would oppose him, but what does Taravangian hate?