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So Ash is a Dustbringer???


Eri

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We know there'll be 10 books and 10 Radiants. We know all the PoV characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Venli, Szeth; and in unknown order Jasnah, Renarin, Lift, Taln and Ash). We know Orders of all Radiants, so we have 2 Orders left: Stonewards and Dustbringers. Taln is the patron of Stonewards, so I guess we can mark them as accounted for. This leaves us with Dustbringers and Ash.

And even if one of the Radiants joins a second Order (it's theoretically possible per WoB), we can't easily assingn Ash, because her natural Order is Lightweavers who already had a book.

So either

a ) Ash joins Chach's Order, or

b ) Dustbringers will be destroyed or turn to Odium and we'll get another Lightweavers book.

I can't think of another explanation. What do you think?

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Ash becoming a Dustbringer is the going theory. I could see it; but at the same time, it feels too convenient. Besides, if that were true, the structure of the series would spoil Ash's entire arc. My guess? Our theories are wrong, and there's an option c we're missing.

Also, Ash wouldn't belong to two orders if she became a Dustbringer; the Heralds, except for Nale, never actually joined their orders. They just had a different method of accessing the same powers.

Edited by PiedPiper
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19 minutes ago, PiedPiper said:

Also, Ash wouldn't belong to two orders if she became a Dustbringer; the Heralds, except for Nale, never actually joined their orders. They just had a different method of accessing the same powers.

Yes, I know. 

What I meant by two Orders is "Ash may be other than Dustbringer if one of the known Radiants joins Dustbringers as their second Order" (Though it's unlikely). Sorry for the confusion.

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Just now, Eri said:

Yes, I know. 

What I meant by two Orders is "Ash may be other than Dustbringer if one of the known Radiants joins Dustbringers as their second Order" (Though it's unlikely). Sorry for the confusion.

No worries! Are you thinking we'd have a book 4 situation again, where the flashbacks are Eshonai's and Venli's but it's sorta Navani's book anyway?

Because in that case, it's entirely possible we have a non-Radiant character becoming a Dustbringer

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50 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

Option C is obvious.

Ash dies, someone else becomes the main Dustbringer and focus of the book, while the flashbacks are Ash.

Brandon keeps saying it's possible for flashback characters to die.

SA spoilers:

Spoiler

Eshonai was one right? 

 

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48 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

Option C is obvious.

Ash dies, someone else becomes the main Dustbringer and focus of the book, while the flashbacks are Ash.

Brandon keeps saying it's possible for flashback characters to die.

But in Eshonai's flashback book the PoV was Venli and they both were the relevant Order. I'd probably expect, in another case of dead character's flashbacks, for the character and main PoV to also be the Radiant Order matching the book.

On 23.12.2020 at 7:36 PM, PiedPiper said:

No worries! Are you thinking we'd have a book 4 situation again, where the flashbacks are Eshonai's and Venli's but it's sorta Navani's book anyway?

Because in that case, it's entirely possible we have a non-Radiant character becoming a Dustbringer

But the characters that are in book's Order are the ones that are theoretical main PoV (form the list of main PoVs we were given), not Navani.

 

Generally, having the book assigned to Ash and Ash not being a Dustbringer would break the mold. Which may be the whole point of it, but anyway it would break it.

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  • 9 months later...

Sanderson is okay with people guessing some of his plot points, and the majority of fans aren't aware of which characters will be view point  characters down the line so this is something that most people wouldn't know. The best confirmation for me is the finale of Oathbringer, when the gang jumps through the perpendicularity to join Dalinar back in the physical realm. He looks around and starts counting off people, Kaladin for the Windrunners, Szeth for the Skybreakers, Lift for the Edgedancers, Renarin for the Truthwatchers, Shallan for the Lightweavers, Jasnah for the Elsecallers, Taln for the Stonewards, and Dalinar himself for the Bondsmiths. He also counts Ask among them because she is a Herald but wonders why he only counts nine. What he doesn't know is that Venli, who is nearby with Odium, is a Willshaper, bringing the total number to ten. All 10 orders are present except the Dustbringer because Ash and Shallan are both Lightweavers, so I think the only conclusion is that Ash will become a Dustbringer

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On 10/6/2021 at 7:30 PM, Honorspring said:

Sanderson is okay with people guessing some of his plot points, and the majority of fans aren't aware of which characters will be view point  characters down the line so this is something that most people wouldn't know. The best confirmation for me is the finale of Oathbringer, when the gang jumps through the perpendicularity to join Dalinar back in the physical realm. He looks around and starts counting off people, Kaladin for the Windrunners, Szeth for the Skybreakers, Lift for the Edgedancers, Renarin for the Truthwatchers, Shallan for the Lightweavers, Jasnah for the Elsecallers, Taln for the Stonewards, and Dalinar himself for the Bondsmiths. He also counts Ask among them because she is a Herald but wonders why he only counts nine. What he doesn't know is that Venli, who is nearby with Odium, is a Willshaper, bringing the total number to ten. All 10 orders are present except the Dustbringer because Ash and Shallan are both Lightweavers, so I think the only conclusion is that Ash will become a Dustbringer

This makes a lot of sense.

but hey

what if, like, Ash is already a Dustbringer

Asdfgjkl

i have nothing constructive to add to this conversation

Edit: turns out I actually do.

What if Ash gets Chach’s Honorblade, and is unable to give it back (due to Chach dying/being on Braize due to a reformed Oathpact (no idea how this would happen without Ash being there too)/other)?

Or what if she already has Chach’s honorblade? We know she’s been traveling the world, so there’s no reason why that couldn’t have ended up in her hands. (There’s no reason it would, either, but, y’know, whatever.)

Edited by Szeth_Pancakes
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So, here's a somewhat different idea.

Ash becomes a Stoneward, Taln a Dustbringer.

I'd argue that that better fits the journeys these characters need to make.

Taln is already the Stoneward, we've been told that no other order was as alike its patron as the Stonewards, so what is there left to learn for him on that path?

If we look at other major Radiants, a lot of them are pushed to make a journey of self-discovery/self-actualisation through the Nahel bond.

Kaladin learns to extend protection to people outside his personal interest as well as starting to accept that he can't save everybody. The latter he's struggled with since he was a surgeon's apprentice.

Teft learns to accept that he's worth protecting.

Lopen learns that even a jab in good fun can still hurt.

Shallan stops hiding from her trauma (and needs so much therapy, poor girl shouldn't have to confront that herself) even if she's bad at dealing with it.

Lift stops running from the fact that she cares.

Dalinar learns that failure is not the end and to forgive himself for past mistakes.

Venli starts learning to do better and not be ruled by self-centered ambition.

If we look at the themes of the orders, Dustbringer is self-mastery and Stoneward is being where you are needed.

I think that Ash, a person who has been running from her role as Herald for over four millenia, would make a poingnant journey traveling the path of being where you're needed.

Taln on the other hand has spent that same time being exactly where he's needed and is a broken man who seems to act mostly on instinct when not lucid. He's also known to be stubborn to a fault and having a penchant to win unwinnable battles but die in the process. Walking the path of self-mastery could see him learning to temper his stubborness and not throwing his life away. He's also the Herald with the worst known mental state, even Jezrien wasn't as unaware of reality as Taln, so I'd say that he's the one who's most in need of re-mastering himself.

 

¤_¤

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6 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Ash becomes a Stoneward, Taln a Dustbringer.

This is definitely a great idea and one I could get behind (though I still think Ash is likely to be a Dustbringer. Either way, I have wondered if forming a Nahel bond is one thing a cognitive shadow can do to maintain their sanity. Nale is bad, but not nearly as bad as Ishar or Jezrien.  If both Ash and Taln form  Nahel bonds to help their sanity, it could make a lot of sense.

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10 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

If we  look at the themes of the orders, Dustbringer is self-mastery and Stoneward is being where you are needed.

I think that Ash, a person who has been running from her role as Herald for over four millenia, would make a poingnant journey traveling the path of being where you're needed.

Taln on the other hand has spent that same time being exactly where he's needed and is a broken man who seems to act mostly on instinct when not lucid. He's also known to be stubborn to a fault and having a penchant to win unwinnable battles but die in the process. Walking the path of self-mastery could see him learning to temper his stubborness and not throwing his life away. He's also the Herald with the worst known mental state, even Jezrien wasn't as unaware of reality as Taln, so I'd say that he's the one who's most in need of re-mastering himself.

 

¤_¤

While I do really like that idea, I would argue that Dustbringers strive for restraint more so than mastery. They weild the surge of Division, an ability that would require a great deal of restraint and control. I feel that Taln resigned himself to a role and it broke him, and now he needs to learn again how to be where he is needed and to leave his nigh catatonic state. Also one of the things that can lead someone to being a Dustbringer is a focus on destruction, which Ash has been excelling at for a few thousand years by now

 

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1 hour ago, Honorspring said:

 I feel that Taln resigned himself to a role and it broke him, and now he needs to learn again how to be where he is needed and to leave his nigh catatonic state. Also one of the things that can lead someone to being a Dustbringer is a focus on destruction, which Ash has been excelling at for a few thousand years by now

 

I don't think he resigned himself. He has two issues - simply being overwhelmed by enormity of spending 4k years in Braize and supernatural herald illness. Note that he recovered partially while Dalinar has sworn 3rd ideal, just like Ishar did and when we see him first he is lucid - kinda - and doesn't say his mantra. So part of his problem is probably related to being separated from blade and similar to this other heralds have.

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On 2021-10-09 at 2:42 AM, Honorspring said:

While I do really like that idea, I would argue that Dustbringers strive for restraint more so than mastery.

So, I was basing this on the little statement that acompanies each order in the Radiant quiz.

Dustbringers get "I will seek self-mastery."

I'd also argue that restraint and self-mastery go hand-in-hand here, mastering oneself teaches restraint.

It's also interesting to note that, outside of practice, several orders with access to powers that can be highly destructive (Windrunners/Gravitation, Dustbringers/Division and Skybreakers/both) have themes that prevent free excercise of the powers.

Windrunners have to protect, Skybreakers have to follow a code and Dustbringers have to show restraint.

Compare with Edgedancers who are almost incentivised to use their power of healing, as they are supposed to care about those that get forgotten.

On 2021-10-09 at 2:42 AM, Honorspring said:

I feel that Taln resigned himself to a role and it broke him, and now he needs to learn again how to be where he is needed and to leave his nigh catatonic state. Also one of the things that can lead someone to being a Dustbringer is a focus on destruction, which Ash has been excelling at for a few thousand years by now

I'm not sure "resigned" is quite the right word, but I do see your argument.

I also don't think that the standard theory of Taln Stoneward, Ash Dustbringer is unrealistic, I can just see Brandon pulling the wool over our eyes and it totally working with these characters.

 

¤_¤

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/11/2021 at 6:05 AM, Inquisitor #5 said:

It's also interesting to note that, outside of practice, several orders with access to powers that can be highly destructive (Windrunners/Gravitation, Dustbringers/Division and Skybreakers/both) have themes that prevent free excercise of the powers.

Imo this is really kind of in general a split on the chart—orders on the right are more about proper exercise of power, while orders on the left are more about personal expression and self-knowledge (though there's elements of both in all of them, of course). Note that in many cases I'm looking beyond the words of the oaths and at what the order blurbs say the order in practice tended to be.

Right side:

  • Windrunners: focused on protection and aiding those who need it
  • Skybreakers (at their best, anyway): focused on keeping those in power from abusing it and becoming tyrants, and making sure nobody is above the law
  • Dustbringers: focused on self-control and keeping destructive power carefully and precisely channeled
  • Edgedancers: focused on making sure those in power are truly serving those they lead

Left side:

  • Lightweavers: about finding your truth and understanding yourself, and often creative and artistic
  • Elsecallers: about finding your true potential and self-improvement, and often wise and thoughtful
  • Willshapers: about freedom and self-expression and will, along with teaching and helping people build themselves up
  • Stonewards: about always being able to be there, and known for participating in sporting competitions and generally trying to reach their peak (hmm, interesting name those spren have...)

Middle:

  • Truthwatchers: the blurb actually lists out two main ways they tend to be expressed: scientists and thinkers who work to unravel the secrets of the world and expand their knowledge, and more investigative reporter types who are concerned with making sure those in power are truthful, which align rather neatly with the categories I outlined.
  • Bondsmiths: generally focused on bringing others together, but as we see with Dalinar's Third, there's a strong component of being your best self overall, as well, and the blurb mentions the oaths tend to be incredibly varied and the theme is a very loose one

(I'm hesitant to put this directly as an Honor-Cultivation split, as it's close in theme but doesn't quite feel right for many of the orders, so I've tried to avoid language that frames it as that, exactly.)

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