Thaidakar - Deity of the Ghostbloods?

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

No one is confused about your arguments but you. You're talking about regulations created to protect people within organizations in our real world. If Thaidakar were screwing over the people in his own organization, the arguments would have some application. If there were a larger entity that was charged with keeping the Ghostbloods on the straight and narrow and Thaidakar was ignoring them, there would be some weight to your arguments. Since no one is accusing him of hurting his own people or ignoring far reaching regulatory requirements, there is no real relevance to your arguments.

We're talking about Thaidakar's personal ethics and his ability to apply those ethics across a multi planetary and multi realm organization. The only disagreement is with his ability to apply his own ethics to his team. Even that disagreement is one of semantics now. We all agree that he's not the most solid ethical person. We all also agree that he is a poor administrator, anyway, so even if he had the ethics to avoid random killing and he saw such ethics as more important than the results he's seeking, he'd be unable to keep his charges from killing people.

So what the hell are your arguments supposed to be convincing people of, anyway? That real world Thaidakar (CEO) should be held accountable for someone working for Mraize (local General Manager) possibly killing someone? Who cares?

As I explained to Lunauanaki, I am not commenting on ethics. I am not saying whether or not Thaidakar has an ethical or moral responsibility for the actions of Mraize and the Ghostbloods. I am saying plain and simple as the founder and leader of the organization that is the ghostbloods, by the chain of causation, he is responsible for the actions his organization and the members of said organization take. 

So if we take a picture of an action Mraize took, then that action was either with Thaidakar's blessing or not.

If you don't like the action and think that the action Mraize took was immoral, that is your own understanding and interpretation of the action. I am not discussing the morality of said action.

I am discussing whether or not Mraize and the Ghostbloods are operating with Thaidakar's blessing. Whether or not those actions are approved by Thaidakar. If you want to take issue with those actions, that is entirely on and up to you, but it doesn't change whose ultimate responsibly those actions flow to.

So Thaidakar is either an effective leader, and the actions Mraize and the Ghostbloods take are with his blessing, or Thaidakar is a failure of a leader, and the actions Mraize and the Ghostbloods take are without his blessing. 

Either way Thaidakar is responsible. The only question is whether or not Mraize and the Ghostbloods are doing what they are told. 

I conclude that Thaidakar is an effective leader, so Mraize and the Ghostbloods are doing what they are told. 

[Lunu’anaki]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I am not sure whether considering this is a stormlight thread, whether or not it is allowable to refer to Thaidakar as another name

Thanks, I've fixed this on my post, I apologize if this threw anyone off.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Thaidakar's responsibility is clear and irrefutable. The only question that I am discussing is whether or not Mraize and the Ghostbloods are operating in a manner counter to Thaidakar. 

If they are operating within expected parameters of Thaidakar: Thaidakar is an effective and good leader and is responsible.

If they are operating outside expected parameters of Thaidakar: Thaidkar is a failure as a leader and is responsible.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on your fundamental assumption that being a leader makes you immediately responsible for the actions of your followers.

If an amazon employee is delivering a package and decides that it is more efficient and provides better service if he murders everyone who stands in the way of him getting that package to your front door... Jeff Bezos is not responsible for those murders unless his actions directly influenced the decision making process of his followers so that they would believe murder was a valid execution of their goals.

It is entirely possible for a good leader to run an awful organization. Organizations are groups of people. Their leaders are singular and can only have so much influence over the actions of the whole. You can't blame the president of a democratic country for what it's senate decides to do. The same goes for Blaming Jeff Bezos for Board decisions, or Thaidakar for Ghostblood actions he has no part in. We don't know the extent of his reach within the organization, why he's involved with them in the first place, or how much power he has within their organizational structure. It's entirely plausible to me that he could have started the Ghostbloods as a democratic organization and they could be voting against his wishes. We just cant say for certain and I think assumptions like (Ghostbloods=Bad so Thaidakar=Bad) are bad assumptions to make when we don't know the full picture.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Thanks, I've fixed this on my post, I apologize if this threw anyone off.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on your fundamental assumption that being a leader makes you immediately responsible for the actions of your followers.

If an amazon employee is delivering a package and decides that it is more efficient and provides better service if he murders everyone who stands in the way of him getting that package to your front door... Jeff Bezos is not responsible for those murders unless his actions directly influenced the decision making process of his followers so that they would believe murder was a valid execution of their goals.

It is entirely possible for a good leader to run an awful organization. Organizations are groups of people. Their leaders are singular and can only have so much influence over the actions of the whole. You can't blame the president of a democratic country for what it's senate decides to do. The same goes for Blaming Jeff Bezos for Board decisions, or Thaidakar for Ghostblood actions he has no part in. We don't know the extent of his reach within the organization, why he's involved with them in the first place, or how much power he has within their organizational structure. It's entirely plausible to me that he could have started the Ghostbloods as a democratic organization and they could be voting against his wishes. We just cant say for certain and I think assumptions like (Ghostbloods=Bad so Thaidakar=Bad) are bad assumptions to make when we don't know the full picture.

Considering his history and how he has run crews in the past, he likely gives orders to his ‘board’, then lets them figure out how they want to get the job done.

‘Board’ members then instruct ‘regional managers’, who inform the regular managers, who inform their employees.

Thaidakar sets policy, but I don’t think he sets any rules on how it is to be carried out. Instead he assumes that people will do things the way he wants and in a manner he approves of. Which, of course, they don’t. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Lunu’anaki]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thaidakar sets policy, but I don’t think he sets any rules on how it is to be carried out. Instead he assumes that people will do things the way he wants and in a manner he approves of. Which, of course, they don’t. 

This is the way I'm looking at it until we have more information. Who knows though, I find it hard to believe he'd ever be all bad, but he lived in a very different time and place when he wasn't a cognitive shadow, and some of those attitudes may not transfer over well to Rosharen morality.

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

This is the way I'm looking at it until we have more information. Who knows though, I find it hard to believe he'd ever be all bad, but he lived in a very different time and place when he wasn't a cognitive shadow, and some of those attitudes may not transfer over well to Rosharen morality.

I mean, we have a WoB that indicates he’s a terrible administrator. We also have a great deal of textual evidence from TFE indicating the same. I... honestly have no idea how he managed to rule the South. I get the feeling it was very much a ‘benign neglect’ type situation.

The thing is, Kelsier tends to have good instincts when picking people to do tasks. He made only one real mistake in TFE (aside from Yeden): Ham wasn’t cut out for generalship. I suspect he did the same in the South, choosing leaders who could do what Kelsier doesn’t - administrate the day to day.

This falls apart very quickly once Kelsier cant be directly involved though. His laissez faire type leadership doesn’t work once his organization gets to big. If he was anyone else, the Ghostbloods would have collapsed after a point. 

But he’s Kelsier. Normal rules don’t apply. He creates cults of personality. He almost has to - the only reason his crews work is due to intense personal loyalty to him. Because, when you come right down to it, he’s a terrible leader. He can’t administrate. He doesn’t believe in oversight. Logistics are things other people do. Budgets? What’s a budget?

Kelsier’s just really, really good at getting people to listen to him. He’s a natural cult leader, creating them even when he probably doesn’t intend to. People LIKE to do what Kelsier wants, and it’s the only way he knows to get things done when he can’t do it himself.

Which... honestly explains a lot, when you think about it.

[Pathfinder]

On 12/31/2020 at 2:22 PM, Lunu’anaki said:

Thanks, I've fixed this on my post, I apologize if this threw anyone off.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on your fundamental assumption that being a leader makes you immediately responsible for the actions of your followers.

If an amazon employee is delivering a package and decides that it is more efficient and provides better service if he murders everyone who stands in the way of him getting that package to your front door... Jeff Bezos is not responsible for those murders unless his actions directly influenced the decision making process of his followers so that they would believe murder was a valid execution of their goals.

It is entirely possible for a good leader to run an awful organization. Organizations are groups of people. Their leaders are singular and can only have so much influence over the actions of the whole. You can't blame the president of a democratic country for what it's senate decides to do. The same goes for Blaming Jeff Bezos for Board decisions, or Thaidakar for Ghostblood actions he has no part in. We don't know the extent of his reach within the organization, why he's involved with them in the first place, or how much power he has within their organizational structure. It's entirely plausible to me that he could have started the Ghostbloods as a democratic organization and they could be voting against his wishes. We just cant say for certain and I think assumptions like (Ghostbloods=Bad so Thaidakar=Bad) are bad assumptions to make when we don't know the full picture.

 

Ok, so first and foremost, please do not take this as confrontational, nor me shutting you down and saying you are wrong. That is not what I am saying, nor it is my intent. There seems to be confusion on what I am stating. I am not arguing whether or not Thaidakar is responsible. I am stating how it works. He is responsible. Based on how these things function. He is. You can personally feel or hold the opinion that he is not, but as per the real world and how it functions, he is. This is not my opinion, nor thoughts. I am explaining how it functions.

 

It is like I am explaining a math formula. You can disagree with it, or not like it. Totally your right. But it does not change the content of the formula, nor the resulting conclusion. What I am saying is A + B = C. Or another way, I am pointing to the gear in the clock that turns the hour hand. The gear is the gear, and it turns the hour hand. 

 

To literally apply the situation we are presented with:

 

An Amazon chapter operating in another country is known to kill people and operate in illegal fashion (for those that believe Mraize is lying, or that individuals misunderstand and they didn't actually do anything "wrong" is immaterial). It is so known as such, that the name "Amazon" in this location is synonymous with such practices. The local Amazon chapter has direct contact with Jeff Besos, and refers to Jeff Besos as the primary and only leader (not democratically elected). As it stands, and how it works, Amazon as a whole is responsible for that local chapter. Jeff Besos, who has direct contact with that chapter is responsible.

 

Again, my intention is not to say "I think Jeff Besos is responsible for those actions". My intention is to say "He is responsible. That is how it works."

 

So I respect you would like to agree to disagree. I wish you luck!

Edited January 14, 2021 by Pathfinder

[Lunu’anaki]

7 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 

Ok, so first and foremost, please do not take this as confrontational, nor me shutting you down and saying you are wrong. That is not what I am saying, nor it is my intent. There seems to be confusion on what I am stating. I am not arguing whether or not Thaidakar is responsible. I am stating how it works. He is responsible. Based on how these things function. He is. You can personally feel or hold the opinion that he is not, but as per the real world and how it functions, he is. This is not my opinion, nor thoughts. I am explaining how it functions.

 

It is like I am explaining a math formula. You can disagree with it, or not like it. Totally your right. But it does not change the content of the formula, nor the resulting conclusion. What I am saying is A + B = C. Or another way, I am pointing to the gear in the clock that turns the hour hand. The gear is the gear, and it turns the hour hand. 

 

To literally apply the situation we are presented with:

 

An Amazon chapter operating in another country is known to kill people and operate in illegal fashion (for those that believe Mraize is lying, or that individuals misunderstand and they didn't actually do anything "wrong" is immaterial). It is so known as such, that the name "Amazon" in this location is synonymous with such practices. The local Amazon chapter has direct contact with Jeff Besos, and refers to Jeff Besos as the primary and only leader (not democratically elected). As it stands, and how it works, Amazon as a whole is responsible for that local chapter. Jeff Besos, who has direct contact with that chapter is responsible.

 

Again, my intention is not to say "I think Jeff Besos is responsible for those actions". My intention is to say "He is responsible. That is how it works."

 

So I respect you would like to agree to disagree. I wish you luck!

No worries!! In my opinion this is philosophy, not something worth fighting over; just something worth discussing and thinking about! 

I just feel that you are making an assumption when it comes to who should take responsibility for the actions of an organization, and when they should... Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, or worldview... and that's great, you can believe with conviction that a leader like Thaidokar is responsible for all actions of an organization like the Ghostbloods. It's a 100% valid interpretation of what "responsibility" entails... but it's not the only one. It's an opinion, it's not a proven fact (and never could be). "Responsibility" and the dynamics of running a large organization are not so simple of things to boil down to "This is just how it works".

If your A or B are based on assumptions like this than your C is inherently an assumption as well. Simply making a claim like "The leader of an organization is responsible for the actions of that organization in every case." doesn't prove that statement to be true. So, while I believe Thaidokar isn't responsible for Mraize's actions, and you believe he is, neither of us can in fact prove each other wrong... We just don't have enough context or information to do so.

[Kingsdaughter613]

30 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

No worries!! In my opinion this is philosophy, not something worth fighting over; just something worth discussing and thinking about! 

I just feel that you are making an assumption when it comes to who should take responsibility for the actions of an organization, and when they should... Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, or worldview... and that's great, you can believe with conviction that a leader like Thaidokar is responsible for all actions of an organization like the Ghostbloods. It's a 100% valid interpretation of what "responsibility" entails... but it's not the only one. It's an opinion, it's not a proven fact (and never could be). "Responsibility" and the dynamics of running a large organization are not so simple of things to boil down to "This is just how it works".

If your A or B are based on assumptions like this than your C is inherently an assumption as well. Simply making a claim like "The leader of an organization is responsible for the actions of that organization in every case." doesn't prove that statement to be true. So, while I believe Thaidokar isn't responsible for Mraize's actions, and you believe he is, neither of us can in fact prove each other wrong... We just don't have enough context or information to do so.

And I’m in the middle as I believe Thaidakar is responsible for the negligent practices that allow the GBs to do things he doesn’t like, but isn’t responsible for the specific acts. Guilty of negligence, not malice aforethought. (I love that term. It sounds so archaic and legal!)

[GroundPetrel]

Holy cow I just realized.  In WOR, Mraize tells Shallan not to kill Amaram because "his life belongs to another".  Did the GBs maybe know about Kaladin's beef with Amaram? That seems a lot like a Kelsier kinda thing to mandate.  "Don't touch this guy, some plucky kid wants to kill him, and I think that kid deserves the chance for some payback"?  

[+robardin]

7 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

Holy cow I just realized.  In WOR, Mraize tells Shallan not to kill Amaram because "his life belongs to another".  Did the GBs maybe know about Kaladin's beef with Amaram? That seems a lot like a Kelsier kinda thing to mandate.  "Don't touch this guy, some plucky kid wants to kill him, and I think that kid deserves the chance for some payback"?  

I think it was a reference to what we see at the end of WoR, when Amaram is saved by Taln from not one but two darts from a blowgun shot at him by Iyatil

[GroundPetrel]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I think it was a reference to what we see at the end of WoR, when Amaram is saved by Taln from not one but two darts from a blowgun shot at him by Iyatil

Maybe.  But why would a probable South Scadrian have personal beef with him?  

[Kingsdaughter613]

Something interesting I just realized: Lift is 13 when the True Desolation begins. That makes her 14 in RoW.

Why is this important? Because in Scadrian years she’s almost 15 and a half. And in the Final Empire - where Thaidakar grew up - that was considered the edge of adulthood. 15 year olds were combatants (see Spook.)

This actually changes the perspective on her capture quite a bit. Thaidakar would not consider Lift a child because on his world, when he grew up, she wouldn’t be. It’s like someone from the 1700s (which is kind of TFE time period). 14 and up were adults and you wouldn’t expect someone from that time to perceive our teens as children - even though most of them are.

And this is important because, whether or not Kelsier knows about Lift is suddenly irrelevant. She’s not a kid to him. If he met her, saw how immature she was, sure. Then he’d realize she’s still a kid.

But if all he knows is that she’s a fifteen and a half year old Edgedancer, well... She’s not a child. She’s old enough to make adult decisions - and he has no reason to assume a Knight Radiant couldn’t. Spook was a spy at that age, and running a nation not two years later. Vin was an assassin when only a little older. Lift’s practically old enough for marriage - if she isn’t already old enough! So he’ll treat her exactly like the adult he perceives her as being - which means he’d probably be okay with the sale.

Cultural biases are fascinating, no?

[daypast17]

I find the question of Kel's methods far less intresting than his goals. That and his goals contrasted with Wit's goals.

Gavilar who wants to return the desolations says Thaidakar is too late. Was Kel trying to stop the everstorm?

Wit tells Kel he shouldn't be here.. that he finnished his part in Wit's plan and he consider's Odium being trapped on Roshar as an eternal desolation a win or non loss.

I see these two as some of the main forces opposing the shard's. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by daypast17
Meant to say methods not motive

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, daypast17 said:

I find the question of Kel's motive far less intresting than his goals. That and his goals contrasted with Wit's goals.

Gavilar who wants to return the desolations says Thaidakar is too late. Was Kel trying to stop the everstorm?

Wit tells Kel he shouldn't be here.. that he finnished his part in Wit's plan and he consider's Odium being trapped on Roshar as an eternal desolation a win or non loss.

I see these two as some of the main forces opposing the shard's. 

I think Kell was trying to prevent the desolation. If you look closely, you’ll notice that a lot of the GBs actions have helped the coalition. I don’t think that’s an accident. We know they don’t want Odium winning, but they aren’t ready to make a direct enemy of him. So they’re helping in their own roundabout way... very, very quietly.

[Vissy]

4 hours ago, daypast17 said:

I find the question of Kel's motive far less intresting than his goals. That and his goals contrasted with Wit's goals.

Gavilar who wants to return the desolations says Thaidakar is too late. Was Kel trying to stop the everstorm?

Wit tells Kel he shouldn't be here.. that he finnished his part in Wit's plan and he consider's Odium being trapped on Roshar as an eternal desolation a win or non loss.

I see these two as some of the main forces opposing the shard's. 

Wait, where did Wit tell Kelsier that? That seems like it needs a citation.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Vissy

[daypast17]

Hoid to Kelsier at the well 

"But you are not supposed to be here. You did what I needed you to , but you're a loose end I'd rather not deal with right now."

With Wit having some sort of forsight, I have always thought it was really interesting that he is surprised to find Kel there

Edited January 22, 2021 by daypast17

[stonewalker16]

On 12/24/2020 at 6:37 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It is highly unlikely that he is insane at this point as he A: is considerably younger and without the exacerbating factors of the heralds and B: has access to Breath.

I think the situation is simply that Kelsier canonically is a terrible administrator. He’s a very good figure head, but he’s actually a terrible person to RUN anything. He gets bored. He doesn’t consider little things like oversight and overhead.

Hold up, when did we hear that Kelsier has Breath?

On 12/31/2020 at 11:11 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I mean, we have a WoB that indicates he’s a terrible administrator. We also have a great deal of textual evidence from TFE indicating the same. I... honestly have no idea how he managed to rule the South. I get the feeling it was very much a ‘benign neglect’ type situation.

The thing is, Kelsier tends to have good instincts when picking people to do tasks. He made only one real mistake in TFE (aside from Yeden): Ham wasn’t cut out for generalship. I suspect he did the same in the South, choosing leaders who could do what Kelsier doesn’t - administrate the day to day.

This falls apart very quickly once Kelsier cant be directly involved though. His laissez faire type leadership doesn’t work once his organization gets to big. If he was anyone else, the Ghostbloods would have collapsed after a point. 

But he’s Kelsier. Normal rules don’t apply. He creates cults of personality. He almost has to - the only reason his crews work is due to intense personal loyalty to him. Because, when you come right down to it, he’s a terrible leader. He can’t administrate. He doesn’t believe in oversight. Logistics are things other people do. Budgets? What’s a budget?

Kelsier’s just really, really good at getting people to listen to him. He’s a natural cult leader, creating them even when he probably doesn’t intend to. People LIKE to do what Kelsier wants, and it’s the only way he knows to get things done when he can’t do it himself.

Which... honestly explains a lot, when you think about it.

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually rule the South. The people there just refer to him as a great leader because he saved them all from freezing to death and gave them access to technology that revolutionized their society, but even that can't be fully contributed to Kelsier, since Anlak says that Kel only taught them how to make heat metalminds. They figured the rest out for themselves. 

I personally think Kel isn't fully responsible for two reasons

1: Kelsier is Iytalia's superior, not Mraize's, and Mraize hired a bunch of people under him. At best, Kelsier has three levels of underlings between him and the guys who murdered the stagecoachman's for the least.

2: Secret History showed us that Kel is starting to become a more empathetic person, and I'm pretty sure that Brando Sando has said that Kelsier's story isn't done yet, and even during TFE he wasn't as cruel as the Rosharian GBs. It's very likely that Mraize is acting without his direct authorization or knowledge, and only follows general orders of "Secure accesspoints to Shadesmere," "Find easy ways to get Investiture" and "Find a way to get me off Scadrial"

[Kingsdaughter613]

18 minutes ago, stonewalker16 said:

Hold up, when did we hear that Kelsier has Breath?

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually rule the South. The people there just refer to him as a great leader because he saved them all from freezing to death and gave them access to technology that revolutionized their society, but even that can't be fully contributed to Kelsier, since Anlak says that Kel only taught them how to make heat metalminds. They figured the rest out for themselves. 

I personally think Kel isn't fully responsible for two reasons

1: Kelsier is Iytalia's superior, not Mraize's, and Mraize hired a bunch of people under him. At best, Kelsier has three levels of underlings between him and the guys who murdered the stagecoachman's for the least.

2: Secret History showed us that Kel is starting to become a more empathetic person, and I'm pretty sure that Brando Sando has said that Kelsier's story isn't done yet, and even during TFE he wasn't as cruel as the Rosharian GBs. It's very likely that Mraize is acting without his direct authorization or knowledge, and only follows general orders of "Secure accesspoints to Shadesmere," "Find easy ways to get Investiture" and "Find a way to get me off Scadrial"

Kelsier has access to Breath. I don’t know if he has any personally, but he certainly has access. Like he has access to Aviar and Seons.

The South literally calls him the Sovereign. 

sovereign

noun [ C ]

 

US  

 

 /ˈsɑːv.rən/ UK  

 

 /ˈsɒv.ər.ɪn/

 

sovereign noun [C] (RULER)

 

a king or queen

 

From the Cambridge English dictionary 

sovereign

 noun

 

/ˈsɒvrɪn/

 

/ˈsɑːvrɪn/

1. (formal) a king or queen
   • The Tongan sovereign is head of state and exercises executive power.
   • The islands are ruled by a governor, representing the British sovereign.

Oxford English Dictionary 

When used as a title Sovereign ALWAYS means ruler. When used as a noun it usually means the same. But definitions aside:

““Eyes like icicles,” Allik said, “drilling into me from behind.” He spoke more loudly. “The Sovereign was our king from three centuries ago.“” 

Bands of Mourning

Yes, Kelsier was/is the ruler of the South. That much is pretty clear. I have no idea how he managed it considering how bad he was at administration.

[stonewalker16]

53 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier has access to Breath. I don’t know if he has any personally, but he certainly has access. Like he has access to Aviar and Seons.

Yes, Kelsier was/is the ruler of the South. That much is pretty clear. I have no idea how he managed it considering how bad he was at administration.

Fair enough, I was just wondering whether or not it was confirmed. Plus the fact that he had priests probably means that he was not the main administrator

[Kingsdaughter613]

29 minutes ago, stonewalker16 said:

Fair enough, I was just wondering whether or not it was confirmed. Plus the fact that he had priests probably means that he was not the main administrator

I hope not, lol! He’d have done a very bad job; he gets bored too easily.

[AquaRegia]

In the Stormlight Archive Call to Adventure board game (which I just got for my b-day), one of the Challenge cards is titled

Thwart an Evil Agent

and the picture is of Mraize with his stupid green chicken. 

Mraize = Agent of EVIL, it's canon.  Just saying.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 1/22/2021 at 8:29 PM, AquaRegia said:

In the Stormlight Archive Call to Adventure board game (which I just got for my b-day), one of the Challenge cards is titled

Thwart an Evil Agent

and the picture is of Mraize with his stupid green chicken. 

Mraize = Agent of EVIL, it's canon.  Just saying.

I consistently join the Ghostbloods. Every time. Or attempt to anyway.

[Vissy]

On 1/22/2021 at 2:35 PM, daypast17 said:

Hoid to Kelsier at the well 

"But you are not supposed to be here. You did what I needed you to , but you're a loose end I'd rather not deal with right now."

With Wit having some sort of forsight, I have always thought it was really interesting that he is surprised to find Kel there

I don't think this is in reference to Stormlight Archives happenings, though. Hoid is referring to Kelsier destroying the Pits of Hathsin and thus freeing the Perpendicularity for use for Worldhoppers. And remember that Mistborn Era 1 happened much earlier than we begin the Stormlight Archives.

[Kingsdaughter613]

In reference to the original topic here: apparently Kell has reasons for wanting the GBs to think he has an avatar... which he doesn’t have. He’s lying through his teeth. (And is non-canonically using a Seon and a cloak to pull it off.)

Which I find both extremely funny and very telling.

Also, apparently Mraize may not be obeying orders and Kell’s crew really doesn’t work that well when he’s not around. Brandon compared it to Tor and Tom Doherty. According to him Tom created this reward system that could have led to some nasty competition, but didn’t as long as Tom was around to coral everyone. But now that Tom is gone Tor has had to change things so things don’t become toxic.

Rereading WoA, I can definitely see it. If it wasn’t for feeling responsible for the task Kelsier left them, the crew would have fallen apart. To a certain extent they were anyway.

Vin not telling anyone about ‘OreSeur’ or the spy; Dox and Ham constantly at one another’s throats; even Saze choosing to act behind Vin and Elend’s backs. And that’s the core crew! The crew that knew one another before, that Kelsier handpicked. And they still began squabbling once Kelsier was gone.

A lot of things about the GBs make sense in light of this.

Also: Kudos to all of us who basically guessed at any of the above before Brandon confirmed it.

[daypast17]

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

I don't think this is in reference to Stormlight Archives happenings, though. Hoid is referring to Kelsier destroying the Pits of Hathsin and thus freeing the Perpendicularity for use for Worldhoppers. And remember that Mistborn Era 1 happened much earlier than we begin the Stormlight Archives.

Yes I understand that happens 300 or so years.

I don't think he wanted Kel to destroy the pits he complains that the only safe perpendicularity was destroyed with the pits.

I've always took it as Hoid wanting tLR to fall. Which frees Ruin, which leads to Preservation either being splintered or stolen by the Ire, if Kel had done the thing he was supposed to and die like everyone else.

Hoid is playing the long long long and Kel being alive when he shouldn't has already thrown parts of his scheme into chaos. 

I wonder if that is how Brandon writes Kel, as a character who's part in the story is already over, as a meddler who refusal to do what he was supposed to do throws even his writing into chaos.

I imagine Kel like Taravangine saw Renarin's name amongst the gold writing.. blacked out into eternity

 

Quick change of subject.. Kel has already used an avatar in canon. Having access to a group of shape shifters whos's entire culture is built on impersonation has its benefits to a system locked would be universal god slayer/puncher

Edited January 24, 2021 by daypast17