Thaidakar - Deity of the Ghostbloods?

[Toaster Retribution]

We know from previous books featuring Thaidakar (I am avoiding his real name in case some people haven't read the other books featuring him) that he likes to have people worshipping him. And then I started thinking about this quote from Mraize, during his last communication with Shallan in RoW:

Quote

"He comes here in avatar only" Mraize said. "We are too far beneath his level to be worthy of more."

This does, at least to me, remind of how many religious people speak of interacting with God: in terms of not being worthy. Now, I realize this isn't much to go by, and Mraizes choice of words do not have to mean that he is worshipping Thaidakar. But, I still feel that it is an interesting thought. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

We know from previous books featuring Thaidakar (I am avoiding his real name in case some people haven't read the other books featuring him) that he likes to have people worshipping him. And then I started thinking about this quote from Mraize, during his last communication with Shallan in RoW:

This does, at least to me, remind of how many religious people speak of interacting with God: in terms of not being worthy. Now, I realize this isn't much to go by, and Mraizes choice of words do not have to mean that he is worshipping Thaidakar. But, I still feel that it is an interesting thought. 

It’s less that he likes people worshipping him and more that he tends to create cults of personality. We’ve only seen him deliberately create one religion, and that wasn’t supposed to take off until his death. (Which he had no expectation of surviving.)

He doesn’t like worship; he likes adulation. He likes being viewed as a hero. He likes people to look up to him.

However, he has a lot of personality. Over the centuries, what began as a the loyalty of a crew  has become the devotion of the faithful. This was almost certainly unintentional, but it is a natural outgrowth of having an immortal leader with as much charisma as Thaidakar has.

I’m not sure to what extent he’s even aware of it. The core Ghostblood leadership is likely made of Thaidakar’s personal picks, a group of people who know him well and aren’t afraid to call him out. He knows himself; he knows he needs that.

Stuck as he is on Scadrial, Thaidakar doesn’t get to interact directly with most Ghostbloods. In many ways the GBs are more like the army than the crew. They’re a more natural outgrowth of the crew than the army was, but they’re not the same thing as the core group around Thaidakar himself.

[+robardin]

There's a small part of me that is holding out on the idea that "The Lord of Scars" that Hoid/Wit refers to having "slapped around" in the past isn't who the obvious designee is. But.... How is it not?

[WasingtheWhy]

Thaidakar was always a jerk. Even when he was trying to be a good guy he was hard to like. Not even really an anti-hero, more like just the hero of his own story. Even his motivations now are selfish. Granted, we don't know exactly what his master plan is (he always seems to have a contingency), but his obvious motivations and the fact that he runs the Ghostbloods as a shadowy group of killers really doesn't paint a very flattering picture.

And the fact that he likes that people worship him... what an ego.

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

There's a small part of me that is holding out on the idea that "The Lord of Scars" that Hoid/Wit refers to having "slapped around" in the past isn't who the obvious designee is. But.... How is it not?

I know you've been resisting the idea, but I think Brandon himself confirmed it on the most recent livestream. 

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I know you've been resisting the idea, but I think Brandon himself confirmed it on the most recent livestream. 

Yeah, I know... It's the end part of this one as logged in the coppermind:

Quote

Kimbobhi

Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's?

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers.

Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition.

What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility

This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could...

Adam Horne

Does that mean Mraize and [Thaidakar] want an ethically sustainable...?

Brandon Sanderson

They're really interested in the sustainable part. I would say that they both would say "yes" to that question. They would consider their actions to be, on an ethical spectrum, at least in the neutral area, perhaps. Others would disagree with that.

Adam Horne

Where would they fall, philosophically speaking, like Kantianism, or?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd have to think about that. That's a good question. Certainly not as far on the utilitarianism side as someone like Taravangian, who's about as far as you can go. But Jasnah is pretty far on that side, also. Though she considers her version more of a "what is the greatest good I can do with any action I take?" (Which one is that? It's not Kantian, but you know what I mean.) That is a little on the utilitarian side. Not a little, that's... not as far as Taravangian, but that's definitely, yeah. They would maybe be in between those two, maybe. Depends. They're not the same individual, they would have different lines.

There's gonna be (let's just say) future books that explore Thaidakar's relationship with that. But you have seen in other books the lengths that Thaidakar is willing to take in order to achieve his goals. He is not far off from Taravangian in some of those things that he has done.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

Nobody else fits the description of being a "Lord of Scars" from or on another planet than Rosha that Hoid, who cannot hurt or harm living people, still managed to "slap around" at some point prior to RoW, where we have "seen in other books" the "lengths [he] is willing to take in order to achieve his goals".

I just find it disappointing that Kelsier is running an operation that casually murders Shallan's coach driver and parshmen porters as a kind of initiation test. That's not even on the level of "killing Final Empire nobles is always OK" or even skaa guards working for a paycheck when he's a hunted rebel. It's full on "everybody is expendable until they're not". Of course having lived for another couple hundred years beyond a natural lifespan might do that to him.

[Leuthie]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I just find it disappointing that Kelsier is running an operation that casually murders Shallan's coach driver and parshmen porters as a kind of initiation test. That's not even on the level of "killing Final Empire nobles is always OK" or even skaa guards working for a paycheck when he's a hunted rebel. It's full on "everybody is expendable until they're not". Of course having lived for another couple hundred years beyond a natural lifespan might do that to him.

He's also 2 levels removed from the actions we see on screen with the Ghostbloods. Ultimately, he's responsible, but we're talking about a multiple planet, multiple planes of existence organization. There are 2 Subway shops within 1 mile of me, one is meticulously clean and always staffed and stocked, the other always looks like it just barely made it through a localized tornado, you often have to hit the bell for someone to notice you walked in, and they never have the italian herbs and cheese bread. That's two sandwich shops in the same damn town. Running organizations is hard.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I just find it disappointing that Kelsier is running an operation that casually murders Shallan's coach driver and parshmen porters as a kind of initiation test. That's not even on the level of "killing Final Empire nobles is always OK" or even skaa guards working for a paycheck when he's a hunted rebel. It's full on "everybody is expendable until they're not". Of course having lived for another couple hundred years beyond a natural lifespan might do that to him.

Well, he is capable of that. It wasn't how he operated back then, but if he considered it necessary he'd do it. The longer I think about this the more interesting hearing the reason that made him go that far sounds. I want a Secret History 2.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Yeah, I know... It's the end part of this one as logged in the coppermind:

Nobody else fits the description of being a "Lord of Scars" from or on another planet than Rosha that Hoid, who cannot hurt or harm living people, still managed to "slap around" at some point prior to RoW, where we have "seen in other books" the "lengths [he] is willing to take in order to achieve his goals".

I just find it disappointing that Kelsier is running an operation that casually murders Shallan's coach driver and parshmen porters as a kind of initiation test. That's not even on the level of "killing Final Empire nobles is always OK" or even skaa guards working for a paycheck when he's a hunted rebel. It's full on "everybody is expendable until they're not". Of course having lived for another couple hundred years beyond a natural lifespan might do that to him.

Just to note: Shallan assumes it was the Ghostbloods. We’ve never received any evidence for or against it being them. 

And Kell is at least two levels away from the Rosharan GBs. My guess is that he’s quite a bit further even than that.

BTW, Brandon confirmed it even earlier. Before we started asking questions he specifically asked that we don’t use Thaidakar’s real name, in such a way as to make it clear that he knew we knew and we were right. And his team erased any question straight up asking if Kelsier was Thaidakar immediately.

[Pathfinder]

I honestly don't get the whole anything negative his organization does is not on him because they either misunderstood him or he cannot possibly keep them in line. It makes no sense to me. It comes off to me as then only two possible conclusions. Either:

 

1. Thaidakar is an effective leader and therefore responsible, so the organization IS reflective and indicative of his current policies

Or

2. Thaidakar is so ineffectual, ignorant and easily duped that an organization can function in ways so totally contrary to what he thinks and acts that the outside observer is supposed to divorce the founding man from the very group he leads

 

Its pretty clear i think its number 1.

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I honestly don't get the whole anything negative his organization does is not on him because they either misunderstood him or he cannot possibly keep them in line. It makes no sense to me. It comes off to me as then only two possible conclusions. Either:

 

1. Thaidakar is an effective leader and therefore responsible, so the organization IS reflective and indicative of his current policies

Or

2. Thaidakar is so ineffectual, ignorant and easily duped that an organization can function in ways so totally contrary to what he thinks and acts that the outside observer is supposed to divorce the founding man from the very group he leads

 

Its pretty clear i think its number 1.

 

Going by what we’ve seen in the past, Thaidakar runs his group by telling his people what to do, them letting them do it. So he’s definitely responsible for policy, but less so for how it’s carried out.

His method of running a group requires most of his people to be semi-independent operatives. This can be very effective, but it can also backfire. We saw it backfire back when his core crew consisted of less than a dozen people working within a small area.

Is Kelsier responsible for Yeden getting the army killed? I’d say yes, but to what extent? Certainly Kelsier’s actions and policies with regard to his true plan instigated that result. But he didn’t order it; he certainly didn’t want it. He was horrified when he realized what Yeden had done.

Now he’s running an organization across multiple worlds. Everything has to be done by proxy because Kelsier can’t leave Scadrial. He isn’t even directly responsible for recruitment! My guess is that Thaidakar gives general orders but leaves interpretation to the people on the ground, who may or may not end up doing what he wants.

We’ve already seen how easily control can be lost: Thaidakar (probably) ordered Jasnah’s death, the Ghostbloods on Roshar contracted Tyn, Tyn hired (unbeknownst to the Ghostbloods) a third party in a foreign country, and that third party may have been responsible for hiring the fourth who were (probably) the people who attacked the Wind’s Pleasure. So yes, Thaidakar is at the head of the chain and does bear some responsibility. But he certainly didn’t know how the hit was ultimately carried out and he almost certainly did not intend for things to go down as they did.

Let’s remember, this is the man Brandon made this statement about: “In book one, Vin learned to trust–and she learned one of Kelsier’s prime beliefs. That it’s better to trust, and be betrayed, than to always worry about everyone around you.”

Kelsier’s greatest strength is his ability to trust his people. But when your people aren’t actually worthy of such trust, that strength can all too easily become a weakness.

Put another way: If the Ghostbloods were run by anyone else they’d be a mess. They’re effective BECAUSE Kelsier creates cults of personality, so all his people are completely loyal to him. Which is a good thing (for him, anyway), because Kell doesn’t believe in oversight.

So, yeah. Now that I think about it, two is actually more accurate than one. Kelsier’s crews only work because, well, he’s Kelsier. He creates policy and his people carry it out without oversight, often doing it in ways he probably wouldn’t approve of if he knew. Which he doesn’t, because he trusts them so doesn’t bother with oversight. And it works because they literally worship the ground he walks on...

Seriously Kell... Man, I really feel sorry for Dox now. You know he’s the only reason anything got done. Kelsier is a terrible administrator.

”No, Kell. You cannot send people halfway across the Cosmere and expect them to do the job the way you want it.”

”... Why not?”

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

A leader is responsible for the individuals he or she chooses to help lead. By extension, if he or she is a good leader, they should have chosen effective people to carry on under them. Thereby the actions those people take are the responsibility of the leader. Further the individuals that then follow those underlings should be chosen well and again are the responsibility of the leader. It is a chain of command, and the person at the top is responsible. For myself, to say otherwise indicates that Thaidakar is an ineffectual and poor leader. Just look at Sadeas versus Dalinar. One look at the warcamps of each highprince and one can determine what kind of leader is at its head. Neither can keep an eye on every minor squabble, but it is still clear who the organization reflects on. The actions Mraize takes represents the Ghostbloods and by extension Thaidakar. Thaidakar is either responsible and accountable, or not the leader. 

 

Another way to break it down is the chain of causation in law (this is a real case ruled on in court)

Owner of business and vehicle provides keys to car to a staff member. Owner of business then leaves for vacation with family. Staff member drives vehicle, runs a red light and incurs a ticket. Owner returns to find he is required to pay the ticket. Owner goes to court stating that he was on vacation, thereby was not driving the vehicle, thereby should not have to pay the ticket. Stated to the judge to "prove I was driving the car".

Judge calmly responded "Are you the owner of the vehicle?".

Owner responded "Yes"

Judge inquired "Did you voluntarily give the keys to the staff member?"

Owner responded "Yes"

Judge ruled "Then you are responsible for any action the staff member takes with that car. You provided the keys to him in good faith, as a reasonable and responsible individual would give the keys to another responsible individual. So you have to pay the ticket"

 

It does not matter whether the owner took the action or not. As a responsible individual, he took an action that led the staff member to be able to break the law. Basically by trusting the use of the vehicle to the staff member, the owner is liable for any and all actions taken with that vehicle. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Kingsdaughter613]

50 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A leader is responsible for the individuals he or she chooses to help lead. By extension, if he or she is a good leader, they should have chosen effective people to carry on under them. Thereby the actions those people take are the responsibility of the leader. Further the individuals that then follow those underlings should be chosen well and again are the responsibility of the leader. It is a chain of command, and the person at the top is responsible. For myself, to say otherwise indicates that Thaidakar is an ineffectual and poor leader. Just look at Sadeas versus Dalinar. One look at the warcamps of each highprince and one can determine what kind of leader is at its head. Neither can keep an eye on every minor squabble, but it is still clear who the organization reflects on. The actions Mraize takes represents the Ghostbloods and by extension Thaidakar. Thaidakar is either responsible and accountable, or not the leader. 

 

Another way to break it down is the chain of causation in law (this is a real case ruled on in court)

Owner of business and vehicle provides keys to car to a staff member. Owner of business then leaves for vacation with family. Staff member drives vehicle, runs a red light and incurs a ticket. Owner returns to find he is required to pay the ticket. Owner goes to court stating that he was on vacation, thereby was not driving the vehicle, thereby should not have to pay the ticket. Stated to the judge to "prove I was driving the car".

Judge calmly responded "Are you the owner of the vehicle?".

Owner responded "Yes"

Judge inquired "Did you voluntarily give the keys to the staff member?"

Owner responded "Yes"

Judge ruled "Then you are responsible for any action the staff member takes with that car. You provided the keys to him in good faith, as a reasonable and responsible individual would give the keys to another responsible individual. So you have to pay the ticket"

 

It does not matter whether the owner took the action or not. As a responsible individual, he took an action that led the staff member to be able to break the law. Basically by trusting the use of the vehicle to the staff member, the owner is liable for any and all actions taken with that vehicle. 

But let’s take this another step. 
 

Owner gives keys to company car to staff member, with the understanding that the staff member will use it for work. Owner goes on vacation. 

Staff member gives the keys to his wife, who gives them to her girlfriend, who gives them to her teenage daughter. Teenage daughter runs the light.

Is the owner still liable? The staff member violated company policy when he gave the keys to his wife.

In real life these cases tend to come down to what a person can reasonably expect. If a boss gives his employee a vehicle it may be reasonable to assume that he should know his employee well enough to know what he does with the car. (Note that this is NOT true in large companies, where employees can make formal requests for vehicles. In such cases the employee, not the company, is liable.) On the other hand, it isn’t reasonable to assume that the employee’s wife will give the keys to her BF’s kid. 
 

But your situation isn’t accurate at all. In large companies the employee IS liable for what he does in a company vehicle. The more steps between the boss and the staff member, the lower the liability on the part of the owner and the greater responsibility on the part of the employee. This is because instructions go through so many steps that they can easily end up misconstrued. It is also MUCH easier for employees to do things their bosses wouldn’t approve of. It is not reasonable to expect one person - or even a group of them - to know each member of an organization personally. In many cases the owner may not even be aware that he’s hired someone.

Generally, if an employee in a large corporation does something wrong, it’s his local manager that gets in trouble. If the manager is also doing wrong, it goes to the person above him (say, regional manager), and so on and so forth until you get to the boss. Which tends not to happen that often, as it usually isn’t reasonable to expect some guy in a penthouse NYC apartment to know that some low level grunt in Iowa was trying his hand at insider trading.

All of which is rather irrelevant though, as Kelsier is a TERRIBLE administrator. If he was anyone else he’d be terribly ineffective. The only reason his crews work at all is because he creates cults of personality - and that isn’t a way to run a business.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But let’s take this another step. 
 

Owner gives keys to company car to staff member, with the understanding that the staff member will use it for work. Owner goes on vacation. 

Staff member gives the keys to his wife, who gives them to her girlfriend, who gives them to her teenage daughter. Teenage daughter runs the light.

Is the owner still liable? The staff member violated company policy when he gave the keys to his wife.

In real life these cases tend to come down to what a person can reasonably expect. If a boss gives his employee a vehicle it may be reasonable to assume that he should know his employee well enough to know what he does with the car. (Note that this is NOT true in large companies, where employees can make formal requests for vehicles. In such cases the employee, not the company, is liable.) On the other hand, it isn’t reasonable to assume that the employee’s wife will give the keys to her BF’s kid. 
 

But your situation isn’t accurate at all. In large companies the employee IS liable for what he does in a company vehicle. The more steps between the boss and the staff member, the lower the liability on the part of the owner and the greater responsibility on the part of the employee. This is because instructions go through so many steps that they can easily end up misconstrued. It is also MUCH easier for employees to do things their bosses wouldn’t approve of. It is not reasonable to expect one person - or even a group of them - to know each member of an organization personally. In many cases the owner may not even be aware that he’s hired someone.

Generally, if an employee in a large corporation does something wrong, it’s his local manager that gets in trouble. If the manager is also doing wrong, it goes to the person above him (say, regional manager), and so on and so forth until you get to the boss. Which tends not to happen that often, as it usually isn’t reasonable to expect some guy in a penthouse NYC apartment to know that some low level grunt in Iowa was trying his hand at insider trading.

All of which is rather irrelevant though, as Kelsier is a TERRIBLE administrator. If he was anyone else he’d be terribly ineffective. The only reason his crews work at all is because he creates cults of personality - and that isn’t a way to run a business.

The owner is still liable because without his or her inciting action, none of that would have occurred. The idea is that the owner should have picked a responsible person to use the keys. By extension that person, acting responsible would not have loaned out the keys to another person. Thereby any resulting ramifications would not have occured.

Further this does apply to corporations. When an individual, even the lowliest of the low grunt takes an action while in uniform, they represent the company. The company then apologizes for the action of the grunt and has to take action to fix the situation. 

Again the idea is thaidakar selects person a, person b, and person c to operate under him. If he is a good leader, then a, b, and c are chosen for their capabilities and commitment to the cause. Then they pick people 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6 ,7 ,8, 9, 10. If thaidakar did his job right as an effective leader,  then a, b, and c should be responsible enough to pick good candidates in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. If they didn't,  then they messed up. If they messed up, then thaidakar messed up in picking them. 

 

So once again.

Either mraize is acting as he should (and considering he has a direct line to thaidakar, there is no excuse), and thereby mraizes actions are a reflection on thaidakar

Or

Thaidakar is an ineffectual and poor leader that can be duped by his own underlings or he aint the leader at all

 

Either way, thaidakar is responsible 

 

edit: another real life example that might help

HIPAA Compliance

If an employee releases patient confidential information either by accident or on purpose, the employee that did it as well as the company (hospital, etc) are fined and penalized. The hospital/corporation does not get to say "hey how can I watch all my employees across the country or across the globe?". They are responsible. They gotta pay.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Leuthie]

Has anyone speculated that Thaidakar is Harmony and Thaidakar's avatar is Kelsier?

By nature, Harmony has to play both sides. He has to seek destruction and preservation. He is just limited in his direct abilities to act due to his opposing Intents. Wouldn't it make sense to create organizations and avatars to represent him? His letter to Hoid says so:

Spoiler

Chapter 28: "Other Shards I cannot identify, and are hidden to me. I fear that their influence encroaches upon my world, yet I am locked into a strange inability because of the opposed powers I hold."
Chapter 29: " I have begun searching for a pathway out of this conundrum by seeking the ideal person to act on my behalf. Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A...sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill."

This letter was probably written prior to the current action on Roshar. Mistborn Era 2 takes place between Book 5 and 6 (approximately):

Spoiler

Where we find that (speculative, but most likely) Kelsier is organizes and leads the resurgence of the southern continent of Scadrial. He could be supported by the Shard that encroaching upon Harmony's world. However, Sazed and Kelsier had no reason to dislike each other, and it's more likely that Sazed (Harmony) is supporting Kelsier than someone who is encroaching upon Kelsier's home planet.

Now, Brandon and his team have all but confirmed that Thaidakar is Kelsier. And Wit is specifically talking to Kelsier when he has Shallan send the message to him through Wit. However, the continued caginess seems more than just trying to keep the secret from people who haven't read RoW. Why would anything Kelsier sent be called an Avatar? How can an organization sent by Kelsier be able to walk into an occupied Urithiru and propose trades with Fused?

I'm going to fully lean in and start the "Thaidakar is Harmony" and "Kelsier is Harmony's champion and avatar" train rolling.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Leuthie

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Has anyone speculated that Thaidakar is Harmony and Thaidakar's avatar is Kelsier?

By nature, Harmony has to play both sides. He has to seek destruction and preservation. He is just limited in his direct abilities to act due to his opposing Intents. Wouldn't it make sense to create organizations and avatars to represent him? His letter to Hoid says so:

  Hide contents

Chapter 28: "Other Shards I cannot identify, and are hidden to me. I fear that their influence encroaches upon my world, yet I am locked into a strange inability because of the opposed powers I hold."
Chapter 29: " I have begun searching for a pathway out of this conundrum by seeking the ideal person to act on my behalf. Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A...sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill."

This letter was probably written prior to the current action on Roshar. Mistborn Era 2 takes place between Book 5 and 6 (approximately):

  Hide contents

Where we find that (speculative, but most likely) Kelsier is organizes and leads the resurgence of the southern continent of Scadrial. He could be supported by the Shard that encroaching upon Harmony's world. However, Sazed and Kelsier had no reason to dislike each other, and it's more likely that Sazed (Harmony) is supporting Kelsier than someone who is encroaching upon Kelsier's home planet.

Now, Brandon and his team have all but confirmed that Thaidakar is Kelsier. And Wit is specifically talking to Kelsier when he has Shallan send the message to him through Wit. However, the continued caginess seems more than just trying to keep the secret from people who haven't read RoW. Why would anything Kelsier sent be called an Avatar? How can an organization sent by Kelsier be able to walk into an occupied Urithiru and propose trades with Fused?

I'm going to fully lean in and start the "Thaidakar is Harmony" and "Kelsier is Harmony's champion and avatar" train rolling.

Unfortunately, we know that Harmony does not approve of Kelsier’s current actions.

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The owner is still liable because without his or her inciting action, none of that would have occurred. The idea is that the owner should have picked a responsible person to use the keys. By extension that person, acting responsible would not have loaned out the keys to another person. Thereby any resulting ramifications would not have occured.

Further this does apply to corporations. When an individual, even the lowliest of the low grunt takes an action while in uniform, they represent the company. The company then apologizes for the action of the grunt and has to take action to fix the situation. 

Again the idea is thaidakar selects person a, person b, and person c to operate under him. If he is a good leader, then a, b, and c are chosen for their capabilities and commitment to the cause. Then they pick people 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ,6 ,7 ,8, 9, 10. If thaidakar did his job right as an effective leader,  then a, b, and c should be responsible enough to pick good candidates in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. If they didn't,  then they messed up. If they messed up, then thaidakar messed up in picking them. 

 

So once again.

Either mraize is acting as he should (and considering he has a direct line to thaidakar, there is no excuse), and thereby mraizes actions are a reflection on thaidakar

Or

Thaidakar is an ineffectual and poor leader that can be duped by his own underlings or he aint the leader at all

 

Either way, thaidakar is responsible 

Some one can be a terrible administrator and an effective leader at the same time. Kelsier is an effective leader but a terrible administrator. You’re conflating the two. 

A good leader can convince people to the follow them to the ends of the earth. Kelsier does this one by accident, when he isn’t doing it on purpose. They’re the figurehead, the symbol, the one everyone rallies around.

A good ADMINISTRATOR is something else entirely. A good administrator can parse out who should and shouldn’t be trusted. They give clear directions that can’t be misinterpreted. They set clear rules and boundaries. Kelsier doesn’t do any of this. Dockson did, and that’s why they were such an incredible team.

I seriously do not know how Kelsier managed to rule the South. He’s a terrible manager - I don’t think he properly understands what management IS. He’s the idea guy. He comes up with all the big, fancy plots and everyone else makes them work. And this is obvious going back to the Final Empire.

In a RW company, Kell would be the owner. But the actual day to day business would be conducted by his exasperated CEO, CFO, and a whole board of directors, while Kell goes off on his jet to do... whatever random thing struck his fancy today. With occasional calls to his board to say ‘hey, we should totally invest in this new thing. And by that I mean I already bought stock.’ Or: ‘I just bought this product/factory/trademark and we’re producing it now.’ Or: ‘I met this AWESOME guy and I hired him, so find him a job, kay?’ Or: ‘Guys, lets make a movie. I already scouted a location, hired a writer, and arranged for a camera crew. How do you run auditions?’

Or: Yes, the Ghostbloods can easily do things Kelsier wouldn’t approve of because A: he doesn’t think he needs to tell them not to do those things and B: because Kelsier doesn’t understand the concept of oversight. He’s a great boss on a personal level, because as long as the job gets done he doesn’t care what you do. But he’s a really, really, REALLY bad person to put in charge of the day to day. 
 

TLDR; Kelsier can lead, but he can’t administrate, which means he actually has no idea what the Ghostbloods are doing on a daily basis. He just assumes they’re doing what he wants. Fortunately for him, they’re loyal enough that by and large they ARE.

[Mage]

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

Has anyone speculated that Thaidakar is Harmony and Thaidakar's avatar is Kelsier?

By nature, Harmony has to play both sides. He has to seek destruction and preservation. He is just limited in his direct abilities to act due to his opposing Intents. Wouldn't it make sense to create organizations and avatars to represent him? His letter to Hoid says so:

  Hide contents

Chapter 28: "Other Shards I cannot identify, and are hidden to me. I fear that their influence encroaches upon my world, yet I am locked into a strange inability because of the opposed powers I hold."
Chapter 29: " I have begun searching for a pathway out of this conundrum by seeking the ideal person to act on my behalf. Someone who embodies both Preservation and Ruin. A...sword, you might say, who can both protect and kill."

This letter was probably written prior to the current action on Roshar. Mistborn Era 2 takes place between Book 5 and 6 (approximately):

  Reveal hidden contents

Where we find that (speculative, but most likely) Kelsier is organizes and leads the resurgence of the southern continent of Scadrial. He could be supported by the Shard that encroaching upon Harmony's world. However, Sazed and Kelsier had no reason to dislike each other, and it's more likely that Sazed (Harmony) is supporting Kelsier than someone who is encroaching upon Kelsier's home planet.

Now, Brandon and his team have all but confirmed that Thaidakar is Kelsier. And Wit is specifically talking to Kelsier when he has Shallan send the message to him through Wit. However, the continued caginess seems more than just trying to keep the secret from people who haven't read RoW. Why would anything Kelsier sent be called an Avatar? How can an organization sent by Kelsier be able to walk into an occupied Urithiru and propose trades with Fused?

I'm going to fully lean in and start the "Thaidakar is Harmony" and "Kelsier is Harmony's champion and avatar" train rolling.

I read the part about Harmony looking for someone who embodied both ruin and preservation as Wax, but I suppose Kelsier fits that as well. 

[Leuthie]

2 hours ago, Mage said:

I read the part about Harmony looking for someone who embodied both ruin and preservation as Wax, but I suppose Kelsier fits that as well. 

He does seem to be grooming Wax for the job in Era 2.

 

And now that I've looked through 10 pages of WOB regarding Kelsier: his associates killing people probably isn't much of an issue.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Unfortunately, we know that Harmony does not approve of Kelsier’s current actions.

Some one can be a terrible administrator and an effective leader at the same time. Kelsier is an effective leader but a terrible administrator. You’re conflating the two. 

A good leader can convince people to the follow them to the ends of the earth. Kelsier does this one by accident, when he isn’t doing it on purpose. They’re the figurehead, the symbol, the one everyone rallies around.

A good ADMINISTRATOR is something else entirely. A good administrator can parse out who should and shouldn’t be trusted. They give clear directions that can’t be misinterpreted. They set clear rules and boundaries. Kelsier doesn’t do any of this. Dockson did, and that’s why they were such an incredible team.

I seriously do not know how Kelsier managed to rule the South. He’s a terrible manager - I don’t think he properly understands what management IS. He’s the idea guy. He comes up with all the big, fancy plots and everyone else makes them work. And this is obvious going back to the Final Empire.

In a RW company, Kell would be the owner. But the actual day to day business would be conducted by his exasperated CEO, CFO, and a whole board of directors, while Kell goes off on his jet to do... whatever random thing struck his fancy today. With occasional calls to his board to say ‘hey, we should totally invest in this new thing. And by that I mean I already bought stock.’ Or: ‘I just bought this product/factory/trademark and we’re producing it now.’ Or: ‘I met this AWESOME guy and I hired him, so find him a job, kay?’ Or: ‘Guys, lets make a movie. I already scouted a location, hired a writer, and arranged for a camera crew. How do you run auditions?’

Or: Yes, the Ghostbloods can easily do things Kelsier wouldn’t approve of because A: he doesn’t think he needs to tell them not to do those things and B: because Kelsier doesn’t understand the concept of oversight. He’s a great boss on a personal level, because as long as the job gets done he doesn’t care what you do. But he’s a really, really, REALLY bad person to put in charge of the day to day. 
 

TLDR; Kelsier can lead, but he can’t administrate, which means he actually has no idea what the Ghostbloods are doing on a daily basis. He just assumes they’re doing what he wants. Fortunately for him, they’re loyal enough that by and large they ARE.

Doesn't matter what thaidakar himself is good or bad at. What matters about being a good responsible leader is picking the right people for the job because they represent you and you are responsible for them.

So based on what you wrote, thaidakar is a horrible and ineffective leader. He is regularly duped by his own organization to the point that they can act completely counter to his wishes. Especially considering he is in regular contact with Mraize.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Doesn't matter what thaidakar himself is good or bad at. What matters about being a good responsible leader is picking the right people for the job because they represent you and you are responsible for them.

So based on what you wrote, thaidakar is a horrible and ineffective leader. He is regularly duped by his own organization to the point that they can act completely counter to his wishes. Especially considering he is in regular contact with Mraize.

We don’t know how often he’s in contact with Mraize, actually. We’ve never seen them talk.

To be duped Kelsier has to actually make rules that are being defied. Since he hasn’t bothered, he isn’t being duped. He told people to do X, X is being done, and he’s just not particularly concerned with anything in between. Not out of any malice, but because he doesn’t realize that he should care.

Yes, he is a terrible boss. That doesn’t make him ineffective. Just a terrible administrator who shouldn’t be allowed to run a company.

And I finally found this (I had to go through a LOT of WoBs to find it):

Questioner

If Kelsier hadn’t died and became Emperor instead of Elend, how would he have ruled?

Brandon Sanderson

Poorly.  He would have gotten bored pretty fast.

I’m pretty sure this is still pretty accurate.

As an interesting aside, Brandon went from saying Kell was black/red to blue/black, possibly with some red. I don’t know enough about MTG to say what that means though.

He also went from saying Kell was unlikely to show up on Roshar to RAFOing it. Specifically, he RAFOd it in 2019, when he was already working on RoW. Which makes me wonder if certain plans haven’t shifted slightly...

Edited December 24, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Bigmikey357]

We're assuming here that the GB's aren't doing exactly what Kelsier wants. He's probably met Iyatil personally and knows her methods.  He finds them acceptable,  else he would not have picked her to run her part of the operation.  What makes anyone think he cares a lick about anyone on Roshar? He cares about his crew, whoever they are. He generally picks good people if the original crew is anything to go by. He can make mistakes (Ham is no general) but it seems rare. But anyone he doesn't personally know can be made expendable and he won't lose much sleep over it. So Iyatil tells him about a place with abundant free flowing Investiture and people who have a similar affliction to his own. He goes to his blackboard and circles the objectives Iyatil is in charge of accomplishing.  He lets her get to it. All he wants back are messages of mission accomplished. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

We're assuming here that the GB's aren't doing exactly what Kelsier wants. He's probably met Iyatil personally and knows her methods.  He finds them acceptable,  else he would not have picked her to run her part of the operation.  What makes anyone think he cares a lick about anyone on Roshar? He cares about his crew, whoever they are. He generally picks good people if the original crew is anything to go by. He can make mistakes (Ham is no general) but it seems rare. But anyone he doesn't personally know can be made expendable and he won't lose much sleep over it. So Iyatil tells him about a place with abundant free flowing Investiture and people who have a similar affliction to his own. He goes to his blackboard and circles the objectives Iyatil is in charge of accomplishing.  He lets her get to it. All he wants back are messages of mission accomplished. 

Exactly this. Kelsier is an effective leader because he’s good at getting people to follow him and creating policy. It’s administration that he falls down on.

The reason I don’t think he’d be thrilled with some of what the Rosharan GBs are doing is on a more basic level. The way Mraize tried to recruit Shallan was the opposite of how Kell recruited Vin. And it, predictably, did not end well. So I doubt he’d be pleased by that -not because he cares about Shallan, but because it was stupid and gained him a potentially dangerous enemy.

I also doubt he’d be happy at Mraize for capturing Lift. But I also doubt Mraize will get more than a disappointed look and a ‘don’t do that again’. Kelsier may not hurt kids personally, and doesn’t approve of others doing so, but seeing as Lift wasn’t any the worse for wear he’s not going to get that mad about it. In the moment would be another story. This IS the man who massacred an entire family - except the cousin’s pregnant wife  - for the murder of a child.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly this. Kelsier is an effective leader because he’s good at getting people to follow him and creating policy. It’s administration that he falls down on.

The reason I don’t think he’d be thrilled with some of what the Rosharan GBs are doing is on a more basic level. The way Mraize tried to recruit Shallan was the opposite of how Kell recruited Vin. And it, predictably, did not end well. So I doubt he’d be pleased by that -not because he cares about Shallan, but because it was stupid and gained him a potentially dangerous enemy.

I also doubt he’d be happy at Mraize for capturing Lift. But I also doubt Mraize will get more than a disappointed look and a ‘don’t do that again’. Kelsier may not hurt kids personally, and doesn’t approve of others doing so, but seeing as Lift wasn’t any the worse for wear he’s not going to get that mad about it. In the moment would be another story. This IS the man who massacred an entire family - except the cousin’s pregnant wife  - for the murder of a child.

Frequency does not change accountability. Corporations release mandatory training once a year regarding HIPAA compliance but that does not mean they get an out when their employee messes up. Storms the corporation doesn't even get an out if the employee claims they did the training but really didn't. They are still accountable. And so is thaidakar. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

He picked the people under him. So either he is a horrible leader and picked the wrong people,  or they are doing exactly as they are told.

I think based on what we know of thaidakar, he is an effective leader, so the ghostbloods are doing exactly as they are told. Therefore mraizes actions are representative of thaidakar.

[Karger]

On 12/22/2020 at 8:18 PM, Pathfinder said:

Its pretty clear i think its number 1.

I would also add 3. He is not their absolute leader and 4. He has a Herald's madness meaning his behavior can be super inconsistent without him actually being incompetent in the traditional sense.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

I would also add 3. He is not their absolute leader and 4. He has a Herald's madness meaning his behavior can be super inconsistent without him actually being incompetent in the traditional sense.

It is highly unlikely that he is insane at this point as he A: is considerably younger and without the exacerbating factors of the heralds and B: has access to Breath.

I think the situation is simply that Kelsier canonically is a terrible administrator. He’s a very good figure head, but he’s actually a terrible person to RUN anything. He gets bored. He doesn’t consider little things like oversight and overhead.

Is he responsible? Yes, but not in the same way that he would be if he had given the orders. Kelsier is likely guilty of negligence, as opposed to malicious intent.