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Thaidakar


Mage

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BIG SECRET HISTORY SPOILERS AND BASICALLY EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE COSMERE!!!! (but I think the RoW section is still the best place for it)

I didn't know what to title this, because I don't want to spoil anything for anyone scrolling past, but the real title is, "Why is everyone hating on Kelsier?"

I guess I am still sorting out my feelings and recovering from the shock of discovering that Kelsier was Thaidakar weeks after reading it, so basically I don't know what I think. However, I don't think that Kelsier is that bad of a person. I think he was at his worst during book 1, and only got better throughout that book, and through SH. All the shardcast people keep saying how much they hate Kelsier, or they like him as a character, but think he could easily be the main villain of the Cosmere. I love shardcast, I disagree with them on this point.

I don't think that the Ghostbloods are doing good things. Killing people isn't good, but in Cosmere books killing lots of people doesn't make them a villain (Dalinar, Vin, to name a few). Starting (or joining) the Ghostbloods feels like a very Kelsier thing to do, but I feel like he is not a bad person. Who saved Scadrial from the Ire and Ruin? Who saved the southern Scadrians after Sazed totally screwed them over? Kelsier.

I don't know. What do you guys think? Is Kell good or bad, especially considering that he is freaking Thaidakar? Maybe you guys can help me sort out my thoughts and feelings.

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I’ve thought he could be Thaidakar since WoR so... I’m surprised Brandon let him do it, but I’m not surprised Kelsier is doing it. Because the Ghostbloods always felt like Kell’s thing.

I don’t think Kelsier’s evil, not by a long shot. I think he’s chaotic neutral, the mythic trickster of the Cosmere. (Hoid is the folk trickster.) He’s trouble and the real question is who he’s causing trouble for.

Kelsier is a liar, a trickster, a thief and a conman - and I love him for it. I think good or evil heavily depends on where and when you are viewing him. He isn’t either; he’s neutral. It’s our perspective that shifts with the character’s viewpoints.

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6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’ve thought he could be Thaidakar since WoR so... I’m surprised Brandon let him do it, but I’m not surprised Kelsier is doing it. Because the Ghostbloods always felt like Kell’s thing.

I don’t think Kelsier’s evil, not by a long shot. I think he’s chaotic neutral, the mythic trickster of the Cosmere. (Hoid is the folk trickster.) He’s trouble and the real question is who he’s causing trouble for.

Kelsier is a liar, a trickster, a thief and a conman - and I love him for it. I think good or evil heavily depends on where and when you are viewing him. He isn’t either; he’s neutral. It’s our perspective that shifts with the character’s viewpoints.

Great insights. Thanks. I agree with the chaotic neutral alignment for Kelsier. Hoid would probably be a neutral neutral (I don't play enough DnD. Is this a thing?). From the Kelsier POVs that we have I think he has good intentions, but you know what they say about good intentions...

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6 hours ago, Mage said:

Great insights. Thanks. I agree with the chaotic neutral alignment for Kelsier. Hoid would probably be a neutral neutral (I don't play enough DnD. Is this a thing?). From the Kelsier POVs that we have I think he has good intentions, but you know what they say about good intentions...

Very true. Kelsier is unique among Brandon’s protagonists and antagonists. (And the fact that I can put him in both categories now cracks me up.)

Most of Brandon’s protagonists are good people who are looking to do good. His antagonists tend to fall into two groups: good men who do evil, and evil men who do evil. Kelsier is unique because he’s the only character who is naturally inclined to evil, but wants to be good. Kell focuses himself at what he perceives as good causes so he can channel the dark parts of himself for good purpose.

Kelsier is not a good man, but he WANTS to be. I think ultimately that is the character’s journey. He’s learning how to be a good man, one that is more selfless and caring and less egoistic and selfish. Yes, he’s going to mess up along the way. But as long as he keeps looking toward that goal, he won’t ever truly be a villain.

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The difference between a hero and a villain is often, perspective. 

Roam about in human history and u would find, often, that some of the greatest "villains" had the most inspiring characters. They were honest, hard working, devoted, disciplined and inspired faith and belief in people around them. They became villains because of their ideologies and the side that wrote the history that we read.

Reading a novel allows us to understand the other perspective. 

Something, which is absolutely hated by most rulers and people in power. Because, if u understand the other side, how would u hate them?

But novels allow us to do it. 

And so, we often have favourite characters. They may be bad. They may be good. Depending on circumstances, they may be wretched and they may be heroic. And we cry for them and cheer for them. 

Is Kelsier a hero?? Is he a villain??

One thing is sure. He has already found a goal worth achieving that he thinks is good. Now, all the people who have a different perspective can be damned. If this makes him a villain, he is a villain. If this makes him a hero, he is a hero. 

But, he is damned INTERESTING. 

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Everyone, I think I figured it out. I was thinking about this more yesterday, when I recalled a quote from the movie Wreck-It Ralph. It is at the beginning when they are in the bad guy therapy group, and one of the video game villains says something to the effect of

Quote

Just because you are bad-guy, does not mean you are bad guy.

I think this applies to Kelsier but in the inverse (or converse, someone with more knowledge of logic correct me). Just because he is good-guy, does not mean that he is good guy. His ends and even his intentions might be honorable, but the means (as we have seen with the Ghostbloods and the overthrow of the final empire) are very much not honorable. I think this will make it so that Kelsier will be one of the main heroes of Mistborn, but a villain in Stormlight Archive because Kelsier's philosophy clashes with the Radiant journey before destination philosophy.

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9 hours ago, Mage said:

Everyone, I think I figured it out. I was thinking about this more yesterday, when I recalled a quote from the movie Wreck-It Ralph. It is at the beginning when they are in the bad guy therapy group, and one of the video game villains says something to the effect of

I think this applies to Kelsier but in the inverse (or converse, someone with more knowledge of logic correct me). Just because he is good-guy, does not mean that he is good guy. His ends and even his intentions might be honorable, but the means (as we have seen with the Ghostbloods and the overthrow of the final empire) are very much not honorable. I think this will make it so that Kelsier will be one of the main heroes of Mistborn, but a villain in Stormlight Archive because Kelsier's philosophy clashes with the Radiant journey before destination philosophy.

This is exactly my opinion. I have a rather long post discussing how Roshar’s ‘lawful’ inclination makes it a natural opponent to Scadrial’s ‘Chaotic.’

Basically: Roshar tends toward Paladins and Scadrial tends toward Rogues. Culture clash ahead.

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19 hours ago, Mage said:

I think this applies to Kelsier but in the inverse (or converse, someone with more knowledge of logic correct me). Just because he is good-guy, does not mean that he is good guy. His ends and even his intentions might be honorable, but the means (as we have seen with the Ghostbloods and the overthrow of the final empire) are very much not honorable. I think this will make it so that Kelsier will be one of the main heroes of Mistborn, but a villain in Stormlight Archive because Kelsier's philosophy clashes with the Radiant journey before destination philosophy.

This is certainly true. But that said, people with that philosophy can become Radiants and proceeds extremely far with their Oaths. Jasnah, for instance, is just as much "ends justify the means" as Kelsier. And she's at the Fourth Ideal now, which only 3 other characters in the story have achieved yet, as far as we know. So it doesn't necessarily clash with it, just does most of the time:

Quote

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

Footnote: A follow up question was asked in the signing line.
Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

 

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On 12/28/2020 at 7:43 AM, Elegy said:

This is certainly true. But that said, people with that philosophy can become Radiants and proceeds extremely far with their Oaths. Jasnah, for instance, is just as much "ends justify the means" as Kelsier. And she's at the Fourth Ideal now, which only 3 other characters in the story have achieved yet, as far as we know. So it doesn't necessarily clash with it, just does most of the time:

 

It's always confused me that it says im that WoB that the Skybreakers would accept an "ends justify the means" philosophy.  Their whole schtick is that follow the law of the land no matter what.  They can twist it around like an Aes Sedai, granted, but still, there are means that that order explicitly will NOT accept no matter the ends.  This philosophy seems much more at home with E.G. the Lightweavers.

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On 12/21/2020 at 7:26 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier is a liar, a trickster, a thief and a conman - and I love him for it. I think good or evil heavily depends on where and when you are viewing him. He isn’t either; he’s neutral. It’s our perspective that shifts with the character’s viewpoints.

This is exactly my viewpoint. He's such a meddler, and it's honestly awesome. 

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Kelsier is most deeply of Ruin. He is brilliant at coming up with ways to mess up other peoples' plans, and he wants to use that ability to protect and do good. I think he's very interesting in a book, though I wouldn't like him as a person.

Edited by Vissy
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On 29.12.2020 at 11:49 PM, Wolfbeckett said:

It's always confused me that it says im that WoB that the Skybreakers would accept an "ends justify the means" philosophy.  Their whole schtick is that follow the law of the land no matter what. 

There you have your answer. Make it the law of the land. Even something as seemingly benign as "The needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" can get you there.

 

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  • 1 month later...

I am re-reading the first Mistborn trilogy, plus the Secret History, right now because of these very issues. Thanks for this thread @Mage !

Agree re: Kelsier being chaotic neutral - makes sense. And yet ...

Mraize put Lift in a cage and gave her to the Fused.

If Kelsier was the type of character to be OK with that in Final Empire, I would never have gone on to read Well of Ascension - I would have only ever read one book by Brandon and never become a Sander-fan.

My copies of the first trilogy are first edition - Do any of you know whether Final Empire was revised heavily enough after that to change the Kelsier character a lot?

There are more confusing things: As another person commented here, Kelsier went (far) out of his way and saved the southern Scadrians from (unintentional) genocide when Harmony renewed the planet. That doesn't seem neutral: that seems good, at least to me. In Secret History, he perceives the IRE of nefarious motives and takes action not just to throw a wrench in their works, but to save his planet and specifically to protect Fuzz/Preservation. And in Alloy of Law, Marsh says that Wax is "continuing [his] brother's work" and he "feels inclined to support that." My gut says that I can trust Marsh as a good guy; and if Wax is continuing Kelsier's work, are we saying that Wax is also borderline good/evil?

My biggest fear is that Brandon has ret-conned Kelsier to make him more of a villain than he originally was, just to fill a role that arose as the Cosmere developed. It's easy to imagine how that could happen, with Final Empire being so early in Brandon's career. But ret-conning always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I also am kinda bored with anti-heroes: if I wanted Deadpool, I'd watch that movie - it's just overdone in stories these days, IMO, though YMMV.

Ah well, we'll find out someday. Meanwhile, threads like this are fun, tossing ideas around.:D

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25 minutes ago, Iarwainiel said:

I am re-reading the first Mistborn trilogy, plus the Secret History, right now because of these very issues. Thanks for this thread @Mage !

Agree re: Kelsier being chaotic neutral - makes sense. And yet ...

Mraize put Lift in a cage and gave her to the Fused.

If Kelsier was the type of character to be OK with that in Final Empire, I would never have gone on to read Well of Ascension - I would have only ever read one book by Brandon and never become a Sander-fan.

My copies of the first trilogy are first edition - Do any of you know whether Final Empire was revised heavily enough after that to change the Kelsier character a lot?

There are more confusing things: As another person commented here, Kelsier went (far) out of his way and saved the southern Scadrians from (unintentional) genocide when Harmony renewed the planet. That doesn't seem neutral: that seems good, at least to me. In Secret History, he perceives the IRE of nefarious motives and takes action not just to throw a wrench in their works, but to save his planet and specifically to protect Fuzz/Preservation. And in Alloy of Law, Marsh says that Wax is "continuing [his] brother's work" and he "feels inclined to support that." My gut says that I can trust Marsh as a good guy; and if Wax is continuing Kelsier's work, are we saying that Wax is also borderline good/evil?

My biggest fear is that Brandon has ret-conned Kelsier to make him more of a villain than he originally was, just to fill a role that arose as the Cosmere developed. It's easy to imagine how that could happen, with Final Empire being so early in Brandon's career. But ret-conning always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I also am kinda bored with anti-heroes: if I wanted Deadpool, I'd watch that movie - it's just overdone in stories these days, IMO, though YMMV.

Ah well, we'll find out someday. Meanwhile, threads like this are fun, tossing ideas around.:D

Brandon actually did the opposite in TFE: he had Kelsier spare Bilg instead of killing him. Kelsier was always written as a neurological psychopath. Brandon talks about this in his annotations.

Lift isn’t a child though. She’s fifteen and a half in Scadrian years. Vin was only a few months older when she was assassinating people. Spook was younger and considered the best Tineye spy the crew had. Quite a few members of the army were teenagers. There were teenagers fighting throughout WoA and HoA and no one blinks an eye.

Kelsier knows Lift’s a Knight Radiant and a combatant. In TFE Scadrial she’d be of marriageable age; hardly a child. She’s fair game to him. And Mraize did ensure that Lift wouldn’t be killed, which probably factored in.

It’s like taking someone from the Regency and expecting them to understand why you need to be 21 to smoke. There’s a fundamental difference in perception.

Now, if Kelsier actually met Lift he’d quickly realize that her physical and psychological ages don’t match up. But he’s never met her, so he has no reason to judge her by any standard but the one he grew up with. And people grew up FAST in the Final Empire.

All of which assumes he knows. Odds are he doesn’t. Kelsier was never particularly good at oversight and administration. Brandon flat out said that “Mraize doesn’t have to do what he’s told.”

Kelsier has always given his crew a lot of leeway to get their jobs done as they wish. The crew around him is different than the crew away from him. He sets the goals, but he doesn’t pay heed to how those goals are carried out. For better or worse, Kelsier trusts his people. And considering the kind of people who tend to be drawn to him, that may not be the wisest course.

 

Brandon talks quite a bit about this in the Shardcast, btw. It’s quite interesting and you may want to give it a listen.

Here’s the relevant bit:

FeatherWriter

It's funny because we already recorded the Kelsier podcast, but it's gonna come out after this one. You've put me in a very weird situation, because loved the Ghostbloods. I guess I still love the Ghostbloods, I have a terrible villain crush on Mraize, he's one of my favorite characters and Kelsier drives me crazy. So finding out they are intrinsically linked I'm like "Noo! Kelsier is ruining my favorite thing." But it does make sense I have to admit.

Brandon Sanderson

It's okay. Mraize does not have to do what he's told, and Iyatil who - that's the other thing once I dropped Oathbringer, and this is a southern continent Scadrian running around, this is pretty obvious connection to Scadrial. I had to eventually canonize that. Iyatil is - 

Don't consider people in the Ghostbloods flunkies. That's not a very Ghostblood-ish philosophy.

Chaos

I guess that makes sense, they're all trying to backstab each other. Well no I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not allowed to backstab each other. [too many people talking at once] [Ghostbloods have]? specific rules, because they need them to be very strong specific rules. If you have an organization of people who are drawn to the way Kelsier works you need some really strong rules. [Hosts laugh] When he is just with his crew, his force of personality, and the people he individually picks you're not gonna have that problem. 

I always imagine-you can relate it to Tor Books, they're all assassins. When Tor really functioned well, back in the 90s, it's because Tom Doherty could keep a close eye on everything. And he liked his editors being a little bit in competition with each other. And he structured his organization so that if you picked an author who did well, you got bonuses, based on how well the authors did which is just a way of working that could really lead to an unhealthy office environment, if you think about it. But if you have Tom there making sure that that doesn't become the case, and if you have Harriet watching and making it a good incentive, not a bad incentive, then it all works really well and you have one of the strongest sci-fi publishers that's ever existed, because everybody was incentivised to find really good stuff. But they were corralled by Tom Doherty and he kept it from becoming toxic. But now that Tom retired I think they're changing a lot of that, because its grown too big for one person to watch over.

And it's the same thing with Kelsier, in an immediate organization of Kelsier's you're gonna find a well bonded crew of people hand picked who are going to work together as a team, and you aren't going to have to worry about too much about backstabbing - less than average for the type of organization that they are. But if his structure is outside of his direct manipulation, the type of people who would be attracted to the organization he makes...

Chaos

...are not gonna be nice.

Brandon Sanderson

...you're gonna have some problems. Mraize would not say that he's not nice. [hosts laughs] Mraize would just say that his niceness is an analogous threshold that does not intersect with the threshold of competence and capability of things he's trying to achieve, those things don't need to overlap in his life.

He'd say he's a very nice person. He was very nice to Shallan by his definition. [hosts laugh] He was very nice to Lift by his definition of things. Think of all the things he could have done with Lift, and what did he do? He gave her as a present to an ancient being who ruled the tower, who could properly take care of one such as Lift.

Chaos

Mraize is very nice.

FeatherWriter

You heard it here, it's canon. Mraize is nice.

Brandon Sanderson

Mraize is nice, and he also wanted to keep is fingers and he felt that was a better way to keep his fingers, was to make sure Lift was someone else's problem. He got what he wanted, which was being able to capture her, which was not that easy, he would say. So he deserves to have whatever reward, because it was quite a difficult enterprise on his part. She is not easy to capture.

You know those Scadrians gotta keep an eye on things, they like to metal.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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@Kingsdaughter613 - Yeah, maybe that's why I'm having trouble. I stick to the published books only. I have a really mentally taxing job and too much else going on in my life to wander around in WOBs, podcasts, Reddit, annotations, etc. Maybe after I'm retired ... But until then I'm sticking to what Brandon publishes as canon, & that's enough for me. If I end up disappointed, well Brandon's only human - he's allowed a few stumbles.:)

But I'm VERY glad that everyone else has fun with all.the.theories! What a great community we have here!

Edited by Iarwainiel
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24 minutes ago, Iarwainiel said:

@Kingsdaughter613 - Yeah, maybe that's why I'm having trouble. I stick to the published books only. I have a really mentally taxing job and too much else going on in my life to wander around in WOBs, podcasts, Reddit, annotations, etc. Maybe after I'm retired ... But until then I'm sticking to what Brandon publishes as canon, & that's enough for me. If I end up disappointed, well Brandon's only human - he's allowed a few stumbles.:)

But I'm VERY glad that everyone else has fun with all.the.theories! What a great community we have here!

Kelsier has always been written as a neurological psychopath though, and that does come across in the books. His being a terrible administrator who doesn’t do much oversight is also evident in TFE (thank Preservation for Dockson!) as is his preference for autonomous crews.

The age thing is also from TFE. Vin was 16 and Spook 15. And the society clearly has a lot of Regency era elements.

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  • 4 months later...

I think Kelsier is a morally conflicted man who tries to mostly do good, but has taken over an organization that wasn’t founded that way. Not all of its members (Mraize, notably so) feel bound to his sense of ahem nobility. Kelsier has no problem with killing, of course, but I do feel Mraize is doing things that Kelsier might frown on, but doesn’t necessarily know the details of. He simply gets reports on the success or failure of the mission, more only if he decides to push into it. And maybe his position as leader is still somewhat tenuous if he’s new to it, even if new is a relative term for worldhoppers. He might have only had the role for a few years, or a few hundred years, we have no idea. He’s had around 300 years I think, a little less, since his death and subsequent survival, during which he did quite a few other things, the timeline of which is a little fuzzy to me. Was he already working with the Ghostbloods when he saved the Southern Scadrians? When did Wit learn his identity as Thaidakar, because he certainly wasn’t at the time of their meeting in Secret History?

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On 7/6/2021 at 8:29 PM, Jondesu said:

I think Kelsier is a morally conflicted man who tries to mostly do good, but has taken over an organization that wasn’t founded that way. Not all of its members (Mraize, notably so) feel bound to his sense of ahem nobility. Kelsier has no problem with killing, of course, but I do feel Mraize is doing things that Kelsier might frown on, but doesn’t necessarily know the details of. He simply gets reports on the success or failure of the mission, more only if he decides to push into it. And maybe his position as leader is still somewhat tenuous if he’s new to it, even if new is a relative term for worldhoppers. He might have only had the role for a few years, or a few hundred years, we have no idea. He’s had around 300 years I think, a little less, since his death and subsequent survival, during which he did quite a few other things, the timeline of which is a little fuzzy to me. Was he already working with the Ghostbloods when he saved the Southern Scadrians? When did Wit learn his identity as Thaidakar, because he certainly wasn’t at the time of their meeting in Secret History?

I'm going to be honest--I strongly suspect that the Ghostbloods were founded by Kelsier.  Probably somewhere after having himself stapled to a new body and setting himself up as Jesus for the second time.  

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2 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

I'm going to be honest--I strongly suspect that the Ghostbloods were founded by Kelsier.  Probably somewhere after having himself stapled to a new body and setting himself up as Jesus for the second time.

I’m not sure it has been strictly confirmed in canon (if it has, I don’t remember) but I would be shocked if Kelsier is not the founder of the Ghostbloods. Why would he join a shady secret society when he can start his own, much cooler shady secret society??

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On 22.12.2020 at 0:46 AM, Mage said:

I guess I am still sorting out my feelings and recovering from the shock of discovering that Kelsier was Thaidakar weeks after reading it, so basically I don't know what I think. However, I don't think that Kelsier is that bad of a person. I think he was at his worst during book 1, and only got better throughout that book, and through SH. All the shardcast people keep saying how much they hate Kelsier, or they like him as a character, but think he could easily be the main villain of the Cosmere. I love shardcast, I disagree with them on this point.

I don't think that the Ghostbloods are doing good things. Killing people isn't good, but in Cosmere books killing lots of people doesn't make them a villain (Dalinar, Vin, to name a few).

The Ghostbloods are at war. You have to put it that starkly. In fact effectively the whole Cosmere is. They are mostly just ignorant of that fact. And ignoring veiled dangers is precisely the thing Kelsier has sworn to never ever let happen again.

On 22.12.2020 at 0:46 AM, Mage said:

Starting (or joining) the Ghostbloods feels like a very Kelsier thing to do, but I feel like he is not a bad person. Who saved Scadrial from the Ire and Ruin? Who saved the southern Scadrians after Sazed totally screwed them over? Kelsier.

You are seeing Kelsier as a philanthropist or a villain. He is neither. The best comparison would be a general or even a tribal warlord. He will protect his people.

On 22.12.2020 at 0:46 AM, Mage said:

I don't know. What do you guys think? Is Kell good or bad, especially considering that he is freaking Thaidakar? Maybe you guys can help me sort out my thoughts and feelings.

  • Kelsier is a nationalist. And to an extent he is not happy about the rest of the Cosmere. They ran caravans while The Lord Ruler flooded city squares with Skaa blood.
  • Kelsier is anti-Shard. You do not kill a god king just to submit to members of an ancient cabal who happen to steal superpowers.
  • Kelsier does not believe in excuses. If you work for the enemy, you are the enemy.

Hence I conclude that Kelsier sees the concept of the Knights Radiant as kind of selling out to the Shards. Regarding Lift, once you are a combatant, you are a combatant. Your age is irrelevant.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 29/12/2020 at 11:49 PM, Wolfbeckett said:

It's always confused me that it says im that WoB that the Skybreakers would accept an "ends justify the means" philosophy.  Their whole schtick is that follow the law of the land no matter what.  They can twist it around like an Aes Sedai, granted, but still, there are means that that order explicitly will NOT accept no matter the ends.  This philosophy seems much more at home with E.G. the Lightweavers.

Here's the thing, Skybreakers don't care about the law of the land, they care about the laws they chosed to care about

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