Shallan's Karma Houdini

[jamesbondsmith]

Anyone else annoyed that Shallan did the exact thing that has the Spren so concerned about humans (without even the caveat of having done it as a partnership), and... suffers no consequences whatsoever? The cryptics sent her another one after it all!

I know she was a kid who didn't know what she was doing, but Adolin and the other humans were centuries removed from the Recreance and they were still vilified as if they personally had done it. I don't think it's a proper rebuttal.

[Greywatch]

Whatever fault is involved, Shallan doesn't deserve it. When I read that I wanted to shake every single Cryptic by the shoulders and tell them they cannot bond children.

[Karger]

I agree.  Firstly I am very very mad at a spren bonding so young without understanding what they were doing.  Secondly the cryptics believed that bonding a human was a suicide mission anyway.  Thirdly Shallan is still alive meaning the effects are not necessarily permanent.  Finally expending children to be that responsible is ridiculous.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

Whatever fault is involved, Shallan doesn't deserve it. When I read that I wanted to shake every single Cryptic by the shoulders and tell them they cannot bond children.

Hhhhhhhmmm, lies.

 

I'm with @jamesbondsmith on this one, the Spren were on the verge of joining Odium, if they just ignore this(if they find out, which should be obvious) that is a huge problem

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Hhhhhhhmmm, lies.

 

I'm with @jamesbondsmith on this one, the Spren were on the verge of joining Odium, if they just ignore this(if they find out, which should be obvious) that is a huge problem

RoW is pretty clear the spren were the ones being unreasonable about it. Putting the blame on a child for the spren turning to Odium is pretty offputting.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

RoW is pretty clear the spren were the ones being unreasonable about it. Putting the blame on a child for the spren turning to Odium is pretty offputting.

I don't care who is right, It doesn't matter who is right

it would deny any sense of internal consistancy within the text to have Shallan face no repurcussions for doing the very thing that Honorspren were considering joining their natural enemy to avoid.

[Greywatch]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't care who is right, It doesn't matter who is right

it would deny any sense of internal consistancy within the text to have Shallan face no repurcussions for doing the very thing that Honorspren were considering joining their natural enemy to avoid.

I think the bolded is a matter of opinion, not fact. It's fine, but - agree to disagree. I think having her face repercussions for it is a bad decision, and it's the kind of writing that breaks immersion and would have me squarely raising eyebrows at Brandon, not Shallan.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

. I think having her face repercussions for it is a bad decision, and it's the kind of writing that breaks immersion and would have me squarely raising eyebrows at Brandon, not Shallan.

Whatever for?

Ligitammetly curious.

5 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I think the bolded is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Characters not having consiquences for their actions is starting to become a trend, Adolin and Dalinar's relationship not changing being one.

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

 agree to disagree

Agreed

[Aspiring Writer]

14 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't care who is right, It doesn't matter who is right

it would deny any sense of internal consistancy within the text to have Shallan face no repurcussions for doing the very thing that Honorspren were considering joining their natural enemy to avoid.

 

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I think the bolded is a matter of opinion, not fact. It's fine, but - agree to disagree. I think having her face repercussions for it is a bad decision, and it's the kind of writing that breaks immersion and would have me squarely raising eyebrows at Brandon, not Shallan.

I would say that for something relating to the court case, it should have been revealed to the spren why this happened and how they cannot blam her for killing her spren when it is used as a damning piece of evidence against Adolin. I don't think Shallan should face repercussions, because the fast she's a child alleviates all blame, but the fact this is not brought up more in the text is strange, and I would like to see the spren try and blame Shallan for what they did (This is sarcastic, they would shut up immediately). We should see the spren's reactions to this revelation. Hell, maybe put her on-court too. Love to see the spren face the story of a child hating the spren that helped her kill her mother and ruined her life.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[Greywatch]

11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Whatever for?

Ligitammetly curious.

Characters not having consiquences for their actions is starting to become a trend, Adolin and Dalinar's relationship not changing being one.

 

Adolin and Dalinar were grown-ass men who made decisions with an adult brain and full use of their faculties. They should be challenged and know that what they did was wrong. Shallan was a very young child, who did not - and in fact, was incapable of understanding the full extent of what she was doing, and she should not be held accountable for it.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

Adolin and Dalinar were grown-ass men who made decisions with an adult brain and full use of their faculties. They should be challenged and know that what they did was wrong. Shallan was a very young child, who did not - and in fact, was incapable of understanding the full extent of what she was doing, and she should not be held accountable for it.

Spren were trying to use something done 500 generations ago as reason for not trusting humans again.

The character established for them would not ignore or forgive this. Being a child is not justification, it's an excusse to them.

If the spren join the Radiants en mass I'm going to be pretty upset.

Now, I don't think a child is held responsible, but I don't think people are answerable for their ancestors either, to spren this is not the case and if they don't act like it that is a flaw in the writing.

But that's just me.

[Greywatch]

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Spren were trying to use something done 500 generations ago as reason for not trusting humans again.

The character established for them would not ignore or forgive this. Being a child is not justification, it's an excusse to them.

If the spren join the Radiants en mass I'm going to be pretty upset.

Now, I don't think a child is held responsible, but I don't think people are answerable for their ancestors either, to spren this is not the case and if they don't act like it that is a flaw in the writing.

But that's just me.

It's an "excuse" to the spren because they refuse to learn about humans. This human would tell them it's immoral to bond a child that young and they would be in the wrong for trying it. The honourspren being willing to turn to Odium over it doesn't mean they're right, and the narrative doesn't expect us to agree to that. The fact that they'll use it as an excuse doesn't mean Shallan needs to face repercussions for it. I'm not going to answer the point about humans being answerable for their ancestors, as to me, that's an entirely separate conversation, and doesn't belong in this one.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

It's an "excuse" to the spren because they refuse to learn about humans. This human would tell them it's immoral to bond a child that young and they would be in the wrong for trying it. The honourspren being willing to turn to Odium over it doesn't mean they're right, and the narrative doesn't expect us to agree to that. The fact that they'll use it as an excuse doesn't mean Shallan needs to face repercussions for it. I'm not going to answer the point about humans being answerable for their ancestors, as to me, that's an entirely separate conversation, and doesn't belong in this one.

So because it's wrong it shouldn't happen, that's what I'm seeing,

maybe I'm just not getting it, could you go over it one more time please?

[Greywatch]

Just now, Frustration said:

So because it's wrong it shouldn't happen, that's what I'm seeing,

maybe I'm just not getting it, could you go over it one more time please?

Yes - the talk about Shallan needing to have repercussions implicitly means that she deserves it. She does not actually deserve it, ergo her facing repercussions simply because "it makes sense" or whatever doesn't mean anything to me. It supports the message of her deserving it.

If someone meant that "it didn't make sense that the honourspren just left it alone and weren't mad at her", that's a different statement. I don't necessarily disagree with that. But that statement about what makes sense for the honourspren to do or not do - I think it makes equal sense that the absolute BOMBSHELL of news that the original radiant spren chose to end their bonds and it wasn't just the mean humans' fault kind of threw a wrench in the honourspren's will to blame humans at all.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Greywatch said:

Yes - the talk about Shallan needing to have repercussions implicitly means that she deserves it. She does not actually deserve it, ergo her facing repercussions simply because "it makes sense" or whatever doesn't mean anything to me. It supports the message of her deserving it.

If someone meant that "it didn't make sense that the honourspren just left it alone and weren't mad at her", that's a different statement. I don't necessarily disagree with that. But that statement about what makes sense for the honourspren to do or not do - I think it makes equal sense that the absolute BOMBSHELL of news that the original radiant spren chose to end their bonds and it wasn't just the mean humans' fault kind of threw a wrench in the honourspren's will to blame humans at all.

Okay that makes more sense.

thank you for your patience.

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Okay that makes more sense.

thank you for your patience.

Thank you for asking for clarification, I didn't realize that the issue was miscommunication. Have a good one.

[Leuthie]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't care who is right, It doesn't matter who is right

it would deny any sense of internal consistancy within the text to have Shallan face no repurcussions for doing the very thing that Honorspren were considering joining their natural enemy to avoid.

Cryptics and honorspren are completely different cultures, almost completely alien to each other. One is mostly Honor, the other is mostly of Cultivation. One was completely eradicated by the Recreance and has had a Herald fanning that flame to keep them from running off to bond (which many honorspren are doing anyway). The other sees the aspects of humans that would create the emotional reactions that honorspren are using as their rationale for hating Adolin and company as the very things they seek out in their bonds.

There's plenty of internal consistency.

And you're keying on the city of honorspren where those who would never bond humans collect. If you hadn't noticed, there were a lot more Windrunners than Lightweavers. It seems that not all honorspren are unwilling to bond, wouldn't you say?

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Cryptics and honorspren are completely different cultures, almost completely alien to each other. One is mostly Honor, the other is mostly of Cultivation. One was completely eradicated by the Recreance and has had a Herald fanning that flame to keep them from running off to bond (which many honorspren are doing anyway). The other sees the aspects of humans that would create the emotional reactions that honorspren are using as their rationale for hating Adolin and company as the very things they seek out in their bonds.

There's plenty of internal consistency.

And you're keying on the city of honorspren where those who would never bond humans collect. If you hadn't noticed, there were a lot more Windrunners than Lightweavers. It seems that not all honorspren are unwilling to bond, wouldn't you say?

In case you hadn't noticed, EVERY Honorspren willing to bond has already done it. Yes there are more Windrunners but that number won't go up, unless some change occured which it maybe did we don't know.

Criptics however have not all bonded yet.

But that is besides my point, the Honorspren used Testement as evidence and her very Radiant is in their own fortress, why is this not a problem? Something needs to come of it there is no reasonable explination for them to use her as evidence of why not to bond and five seconds later be like "oh you killed her, that's fine I won't put up a resistance and use this as fuel for the thousand year fire that keeps us apart, nope I'm going to help you now."

[TheHidelSubldies]

Quote

But that is besides my point, the Honorspren used Testement as evidence and her very Radiant is in their own fortress, why is this not a problem? Something needs to come of it there is no reasonable explination for them to use her as evidence of why not to bond and five seconds later be like "oh you killed her, that's fine I won't put up a resistance and use this as fuel for the thousand year fire that keeps us apart, nope I'm going to help you now."

Strongly agree with this. After all the trouble the Honorspren went through at the trial to prove their point, it seems all too convenient for them to not raise the issue again and simply fall in line. I didn't expect them to start another trial or something tedious but at the very least voicing their concerns in the final Shallan chapter, as a way of shoving that her killing Testament had an effect on not just her but their current predicament. I do think that it's unfair to hold her solely accountable especially since she was a child and the Cryptics did go to her willingly, but to not raise the issue made for a very rushed conclusion to the whole arc. I wish this was an isolated incident but as it stands, this isn't the first time a seemingly important detail in the story is brushed under the rug for the sake of convenience.

Edited December 22, 2020 by TheHidelSubldies

[GameOfGroans]

It's perfectly possible that honourspren have no idea who actually killed Testament, especially seeing that they don't see eye to eye with Cryptics. Cryptics might know, but we don't see so many around even in Shadesmar, and one wonders what did they see in Shallan that was so special to send her 2 spren as a kid. Maybe it's RAFO.

Even Stormfather or Odium don't see and know everything, let alone regular spren.

As for generic morality, Shallan punishes herself way harder than any reasonable adult would. Which child wouldn't reject the thing that killed her mother? She didn't know it would result in the spren's death, and the books give no reason to believe that child Shallan meant to kill her mother. To me it sounded like she was desperate to survive, and the spren guided her what to do, without little Shallan realizing what would happen.

Every story has to have some things brushed under the rug for the sake of convenience, anyway. SA does better than 95% of them, IMO.

Edited December 22, 2020 by GameOfGroans

[Leuthie]

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

In case you hadn't noticed, EVERY Honorspren willing to bond has already done it. Yes there are more Windrunners but that number won't go up, unless some change occured which it maybe did we don't know.

Criptics however have not all bonded yet.

But that is besides my point, the Honorspren used Testement as evidence and her very Radiant is in their own fortress, why is this not a problem? Something needs to come of it there is no reasonable explination for them to use her as evidence of why not to bond and five seconds later be like "oh you killed her, that's fine I won't put up a resistance and use this as fuel for the thousand year fire that keeps us apart, nope I'm going to help you now."

Once Maya told them that the spren chose to break bonds and didn't know they'd die, the arguments were dead. Lasting Integrity's reticence to bond was due to believing that humans had betrayed and killed their spren unilaterally. When that was shown to not be the case, the fact that there existed a spren that had been killed recently didn't really matter anymore. The narrative had completely changed for most of them and the single mindedness of their fight was gone.

It's not that Shallan creating a deadeye doesn't matter anymore, it's that it never did to begin with. Lasting Integrity hated humanity when they thought humanity had intentionally killed spren en masse. They don't care that current spren can be deadeyed. They now have to question that hate.

 

[Ailvara]

20 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

Anyone else annoyed that Shallan did the exact thing that has the Spren so concerned about humans (without even the caveat of having done it as a partnership), and... suffers no consequences whatsoever? The cryptics sent her another one after it all!

I know she was a kid who didn't know what she was doing, but Adolin and the other humans were centuries removed from the Recreance and they were still vilified as if they personally had done it. I don't think it's a proper rebuttal.

I agree with the others that she shouldn't be held responsible. But there should be strong narrative consequences to the fact that the very person who delivered a strong argument to the Honorspren case was present there for the trial and a vital part of the envoy sent to alleviate the situation. It was such a suspenseful accident waiting to happen (especially if you figured out the secret early enough) and then... Nothing. If it was anyone else than Shallan who killed Testament, it would make no difference to the trial, and that's just a disappointing red herring.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Ailvara

[jamesbondsmith]

I should point out that the 'not a proper rebuttal' part referred to the spren who have been frothing mad about it all just looking the other way when a perfect example of what they were frothing mad about is right in front of them.

It's safe to say I'm not a fan of Shallan, but I can still agree that she was a kid who didn't know what she was doing and that she has diminished culpability (if any) from the perspective of a rational human being. Although I'm still confused as to why Cryptics would want to bond someone who has already killed one of them, regardless of the reasons why.

Edit: I am a little frustrated at the fact Shallan keeps lying to herself and everyone about things in her life, but that's her entire arc, and it's on the list of things that I get frustrated about but completely understand how she could come to the conclusion that this is what she needs to do. Obviously she doesn't have the same moral culpability as other characters who have done horrible things due to her young age (e.g. Dalinar, Moash), but a simple 'hey Shallan, I know it's a difficult topic for you to deal with but it would have been nice to have a heads up that you could potentially undermine our entire mission' would have been nice. But again, her memory suppression is a core part of her arc, and I don't know how the Stormlight Archive would have unfolded without that aspect.

Edited December 22, 2020 by jamesbondsmith

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Once Maya told them that the spren chose to break bonds and didn't know they'd die, the arguments were dead. Lasting Integrity's reticence to bond was due to believing that humans had betrayed and killed their spren unilaterally. When that was shown to not be the case, the fact that there existed a spren that had been killed recently didn't really matter anymore. The narrative had completely changed for most of them and the single mindedness of their fight was gone.

It's not that Shallan creating a deadeye doesn't matter anymore, it's that it never did to begin with. Lasting Integrity hated humanity when they thought humanity had intentionally killed spren en masse. They don't care that current spren can be deadeyed. They now have to question that hate.

 

Spren aren't human, they don't charge like we do, the Inkspren days that it didn't change much, due to what the spren were hiding from. They don't just stop hating humans for it, they change their reasons, and if the old reasons are still there, there is no logical explanation for them to suddenly do a 180 and not care anymore.

[Leuthie]

51 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Spren aren't human, they don't charge like we do, the Inkspren days that it didn't change much, due to what the spren were hiding from. They don't just stop hating humans for it, they change their reasons, and if the old reasons are still there, there is no logical explanation for them to suddenly do a 180 and not care anymore.

I think you're pushing the "don't change" thing a bit too far. You're basically saying they can't be convinced of something. If the direction of gravity can be changed 180 degrees with a little infusion of Investiture and Intent, then a spren can be convinced to drop their hate when the reason for it is removed. They don't change like we do, but they aren't statues. Something convinced a good number of honorspren to seek out bonds again. Why can't something convince a good number of others not to hate again?