Kelsier v/s Hoid

[Pandora's shard]

Kelsier is the ultimate con man. That is what he does. That is what gives him most fun. 

He conned Lord Ruler while he was a mere mortal. He conned Ruin while he was just a novice cognitive shadow. Now, he has had 300 years of getting used to the whole of cosmere, understand the powers that exist, the limit of his own condition and possibilities that comes with. 

 

So, who does he con next?

He did a number on one shard and soon found out there were 16 in all in cosmere. I predict that he started by planning to take on all of them. It would have given him great satisfaction to know that this challenge was worthy of him. To con not one God, but all of them. 

But then, despite being infinite powers, shards in cosmere have limits. They are bound by there intent. I think, Kelsier would probably get bored by this task soon because while it is big enough, it is not ingenuous enough. It becomes a kind of repitition. 

But, trying to manipulate everything like he is trying to in cosmere, he must have come to understand that there is one more person who is manipulating everything in the cosmere. Someone, who is playing gods like a flute and changing the direction of cosmere events  as he likes.

Hoid. 

So, here is the prediction. 

I think, Kelsier will try to con the ultimate con artist. And that will be one of the endgames of cosmere. Kelsier v/s Hoid. 

Hoid is Brandon's favourite character because he is crazy enough, brilliant enough, good enough, but ruthless enough to do what is ryt. 

And, that is what will satisfy Kelsier. To con the ultimate con artist. To con Hoid. 

[POTUS24]

I think that this is an interesting idea first off. I just see a few problems... 

1. Kelsier is trapped on Scadrial. Sure he has a lot of well placed minions but it seems like that's basically what he has them focused on or at least from what we can see.

2. What would the con be? What is the long term goal? Just to mess up hoids plans? 

[GroundPetrel]

9 hours ago, POTUS24 said:

I think that this is an interesting idea first off. I just see a few problems... 

1. Kelsier is trapped on Scadrial. Sure he has a lot of well placed minions but it seems like that's basically what he has them focused on or at least from what we can see.

2. What would the con be? What is the long term goal? Just to mess up hoids plans? 

He does seem to be working on 1.  

As for 2, I think Kelsier's endgame is giving as many shards as possible to Sazed and somehow manipulating/forcing Sazed to take them all so that the shards balance each other out enough that Sazed can just go around being a basically good person with divine power without worrying too much about balancing Intents.  

[Kingsdaughter613]

22 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

He does seem to be working on 1.  

As for 2, I think Kelsier's endgame is giving as many shards as possible to Sazed and somehow manipulating/forcing Sazed to take them all so that the shards balance each other out enough that Sazed can just go around being a basically good person with divine power without worrying too much about balancing Intents.  

I think Kell’s end goal is to see Scadrial go beyond surviving to thriving, by becoming the dominant force in the Cosmere.

I think he does want Saze to take up at least one more Shard to allow Harmony more freedom of action. The rest he wants Shattered, so they can’t harm Scadrial.

I don’t think either Hoid or Kell views the other as an enemy at present. Kelsier is intrigued by Hoid and Hoid sees Kell as an annoyance. This will likely change as they continue to interfere in the plans of the other.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Pandora's shard said:

Kelsier is the ultimate con man. That is what he does. That is what gives him most fun. 

He conned Lord Ruler while he was a mere mortal.

But he didn't. Ruin played him for a fool.

11 hours ago, Pandora's shard said:

He conned Ruin while he was just a novice cognitive shadow.

Again, he didn't. He got beaten to a pulp and victory cost him Vin.

11 hours ago, Pandora's shard said:

Now, he has had 300 years of getting used to the whole of cosmere, understand the powers that exist, the limit of his own condition and possibilities that comes with. 

It looked to me like his most important lesson was to never again to be in a situation where he did not understand things.

 

[POTUS24]

4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Kell’s end goal is to see Scadrial go beyond surviving to thriving, by becoming the dominant force in the Cosmere.

I think he does want Saze to take up at least one more Shard to allow Harmony more freedom of action. The rest he wants Shattered, so they can’t harm Scadrial.

I don’t think either Hoid or Kell views the other as an enemy at present. Kelsier is intrigued by Hoid and Hoid sees Kell as an annoyance. This will likely change as they continue to interfere in the plans of the other.

This. This makes a lot of sense. We'll have to see, in the next Wax and Wayne, more of what he's been doing I wonder if there was more in that coppermind than what was in the final scene of tBoM. But it would make sense for him to bring those people back and then have them work together with the group in the basin. I imagine the GB have goals in the local politics like the set. So the next book could have something to do with the secret war between them, who knows.

I don't know about the long term goals for sazed though. It's really a question of whether or not kel knows how the shards change the vessel. I think maybe if that was the goal sazed could try to go get the shard of devotion. I think that would change him the least. But if dominion is gone that leaves sel with no shards and I don't know what that would do to the system. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:07 PM, POTUS24 said:

This. This makes a lot of sense. We'll have to see, in the next Wax and Wayne, more of what he's been doing I wonder if there was more in that coppermind than what was in the final scene of tBoM. But it would make sense for him to bring those people back and then have them work together with the group in the basin. I imagine the GB have goals in the local politics like the set. So the next book could have something to do with the secret war between them, who knows.

I don't know about the long term goals for sazed though. It's really a question of whether or not kel knows how the shards change the vessel. I think maybe if that was the goal sazed could try to go get the shard of devotion. I think that would change him the least. But if dominion is gone that leaves sel with no shards and I don't know what that would do to the system. 

Kelsier should be aware of how Shards change the Vessel - he was one, and remains a Sliver of it. I suspect, judging by what we know, he’s looking to con Autonomy out of hers. After all, that IS exactly what Saze needs.

I don’t think we’ll find out much about the GBs until Era 3. TLM was supposed to release before we knew Kell was Thaidakar, after all.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[POTUS24]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier should be aware of how Shards change the Vessel - he was one, and remains a Sliver if it. I suspect, judging by what we know, he’s looking to con Autonomy out of hers. After all, that IS exactly what Saze needs.

I don’t think we’ll find out much about the GBs until Era 3. TLM was supposed to release before we knew Kell was Thaidakar, after all.

True I wonder if there will be evidence of them or maybe even their origins hinted at? Has he said anything about a second secret history? Do you think we might get one to hold us over before era 3?

[Kingsdaughter613]

20 minutes ago, POTUS24 said:

True I wonder if there will be evidence of them or maybe even their origins hinted at? Has he said anything about a second secret history? Do you think we might get one to hold us over before era 3?

Brandon has said he’d write it if he has time. I wouldn’t be surprised if TLM has some references though, now that RoW is out.

We already know the origins though; the Mistborn crew was the original version of the Ghostbloods.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:32 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I suspect, judging by what we know, he’s looking to con Autonomy out of hers. After all, that IS exactly what Saze needs.

Oh that is very interesting. So he is working to bring Trell to scadrial, maybe even working with the Set, but not for the same reasons as them. Interesting

[Bigmikey357]

So when Hoid throws Wax the coin at the end of BoM, is he working with our beloved sociopath or against him?

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So when Hoid throws Wax the coin at the end of BoM, is he working with our beloved sociopath or against him?

Against. Definitely against.

[StanLemon]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Against. Definitely against.

Agreed, Hoid is probably concerned about Kel being even worse than Rayse

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Agreed, Hoid is probably concerned about Kel being even worse than Rayse

That’s doubtful. I think Hoid was just trying to get back at Kell for Roshar.

[Frustration]

On 12/23/2020 at 11:02 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Oh that is very interesting. So he is working to bring Trell to scadrial, maybe even working with the Set, but not for the same reasons as them. Interesting

Trell is not confirmed to be Autonomy.

[AquaRegia]

I have no difficulty imagining that Kelsier, whatever other plans he has, will be itching to administer some payback for the Cognitive beatdown he received from Hoid in Secret History.

*sticks fingers in ears and squeezes eyes shut* "Mommy, Daddy, stop fighting!"

[Kingsdaughter613]

22 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

I have no difficulty imagining that Kelsier, whatever other plans he has, will be itching to administer some payback for the Cognitive beatdown he received from Hoid in Secret History.

*sticks fingers in ears and squeezes eyes shut* "Mommy, Daddy, stop fighting!"

Me: Stick these guys in a ring and give me popcorn! (We know they both deserve to be punched and who better to do it than they themselves?)

[stonewalker16]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:30 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Against. Definitely against.

I'm not so sure. I think that may have been Harmony's plan in trying to make Wax more Cosmere-aware, since we know from ROW that Harmony is looking for someone to act as his avatar, and I think Wax really fits that position. Am I the only one that thinks we might have a Hoid-Kelsier teamup?

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, stonewalker16 said:

I'm not so sure. I think that may have been Harmony's plan in trying to make Wax more Cosmere-aware, since we know from ROW that Harmony is looking for someone to act as his avatar, and I think Wax really fits that position. Am I the only one that thinks we might have a Hoid-Kelsier teamup?

Probably. Brandon has repeatedly said that they are very unlikely to end up working together. It’s not impossible, but it would take a very particular set of circumstances. They wouldn’t do so willingly.

Also, Brandon specifically said that Hoid giving Wax the coin was something to be suspicious of since Kelsier and Hoid really do not get along. There were things on that coin that Kelsier did not want getting out.

[stonewalker16]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Probably. Brandon has repeatedly said that they are very unlikely to end up working together. It’s not impossible, but it would take a very particular set of circumstances. They wouldn’t do so willingly.

Also, Brandon specifically said that Hoid giving Wax the coin was something to be suspicious of since Kelsier and Hoid really do not get along. There were things on that coin that Kelsier did not want getting out.

My main thought was that Hoid was acting on Harmony's orders, and since Harmony can probably influence Kelsier because of his spike, I figured that they might be forced into working together, even indirectly. After all, Hoid and Kelsier both seem to be worried about Odium, Kelsier if just because he thinks Odium is a threat to Scadrial. My interpretation was that Brando was hinting that there was a Cosmere-wide teamup going around, and the coin was Harmony trying to recruit Wax to help behind the scenes.

That may just be my wishful thinking though since these two are two of my favorite characters.

Edited January 26, 2021 by stonewalker16
Added some stuff

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, stonewalker16 said:

My main thought was that Hoid was acting on Harmony's orders, and since Harmony can probably influence Kelsier because of his spike, I figured that they might be forced into working together, even indirectly. After all, Hoid and Kelsier both seem to be worried about Odium, Kelsier if just because he thinks Odium is a threat to Scadrial. My interpretation was that Brando was hinting that there was a Cosmere-wide teamup going around, and the coin was Harmony trying to recruit Wax to help behind the scenes.

That may just be my wishful thinking though since these two are two of my favorite characters.

Considering how much the GBs are NOT working with Hoid, I really don’t see this happening. I mean, he just got Shallan to declare war on Kelsier.

I doubt Saze can influence Kell through the Spike. I’d guess Kelsier has ways of preventing Sazed to know where he is. We know that they haven’t spoken for a bit as of SoS.

If Saze wanted Wax to know the truth he could have just told him. He wouldn’t have had to utilize a method guaranteed to annoy Kelsier. I think Hoid did that of his own volition.

[Dreamwa1ker]

On 12/21/2020 at 3:32 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I suspect, judging by what we know, he’s looking to con Autonomy out of hers. After all, that IS exactly what Saze needs.

Mind=blown. It so is what Saze needs. *furiously tries to come up with name for (Ruin + Preservation)/Harmony + Autonomy combo shard* .. Freedom?

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

Mind=blown. It so is what Saze needs. *furiously tries to come up with name for (Ruin + Preservation)/Harmony + Autonomy combo shard* .. Freedom?

Glory?