Crack theory: Adolin is already an Edgedancer

[GroundPetrel]

So I was talking in Discord with my college buddies last night, and I wondered--WI Adolin is already a 3rd or even 4th Ideal Edgedancer, but he and Maya aren't able to access their bond properly due to Connection issues stemming from the suspected issue possibly caused by the trapping of BAM in the False Desolation?  

Going based on known Windrunner oaths, oath 1 is the motto, oath 2 is the specific Order's general purpose, oath 3 is the "follow oath 2 even if you don't want to or if you need to change your behavior to do so properly", oath 4 seems to be the moderation oath ("don't burn yourself out for the Ideal" kinda thing, though it likely could also be "know when to step back").  Adolin already follows these--he sticks up for the little guy when others wouldn't, even when it is a significant personal impact for him (blows off an important war meeting to personally help a prostitute get home safe, throws away what little chance he still had of taking on Sadeas or salvaging the situation AND does something that implicitly comes with a massive loss of face because Kaladin has been imprisoned unjustly), and knows when to step back (he is the only figure in Renarin's life until Bridge 4 shows up who treats Renarin well and with the respect that Renarin needs, which speaks to a degree of self-understanding, interpersonal understanding, and perceptiveness that are necessary IMO for a moderation Ideal).  

Plus he's spent years deliberately treating, speaking to, and thinking of Maya as an extension of/integral part of his soul and being.  And, though he doesn't show it much, he is clearly desperate for the approval of his father, who he idolizes, and shows a number of traits typical of both a Well Done, Son! Guy and a sibling-of-the-special-needs-kid.  

So I'm thinking that in book 5 he finally cracks, and gets the storms kicked out of him, but then (assuming that BAM/missing Connection theory is correct) BAM is released and he and Maya immediately rocket up to 4th Ideal and proceed to kick the living daylights out of some bad guys.  

Anyway that's my crack theory of the day, thoughts?  

[Halyo_Alex]

I mean... I WANT to see it happen. And it doesn't sound impossible, if maybe he has to say the words at Maya's prompting swiftly after the release of BAM.

[NameIess]

Following the oaths doesn't mean that you have sworn them. in Edgedancer, Lift had said the third ideal in her heart, and she never really struggled with listening. She just realized that she needed to do it. If Adolin somehow healed Maya, he would probably be ready for at least the first three oaths, but he would still have to swear them.

[GroundPetrel]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Following the oaths doesn't mean that you have sworn them. in Edgedancer, Lift had said the third ideal in her heart, and she never really struggled with listening. She just realized that she needed to do it. If Adolin somehow healed Maya, he would probably be ready for at least the first three oaths, but he would still have to swear them.

Fair!  

He definitely has I will remember those who have been forgotten (WOK first meeting with Kaladin, blows off meeting to get some darkeyed prostitute home safe; OB saves kid from building while being targeted by a thunderclast because he hears, in the middle of a pitched battle, what might be a whimper from behind him),  I will listen to those who have been ignored (WOR throws himself in prison in protest of Kaladin's treatment, is the only noble to immediately believe Kaladin about Amaram; arguably his support for Shallan over her cool alter egos is this mixed with the previous Oath), and when to step back (everything about how he treats Renarin is honestly exactly what Renarin needs precisely because Adolin knows when to step back and let Renarin stand on his own two feet) all down pat.  

I wonder--how fast can you swear the Oaths?  If you've already internalized their messages, can you swear 2-4 all in a row?  That seems kind of overpowered,  though.  

[NameIess]

Just now, GroundPetrel said:

He definitely has I will remember those who have been forgotten (WOK first meeting with Kaladin, blows off meeting to get some darkeyed prostitute home safe; OB saves kid from building while being targeted by a thunderclast because he hears, in the middle of a pitched battle, what might be a whimper from behind him),  I will listen to those who have been ignored (WOR throws himself in prison in protest of Kaladin's treatment, is the only noble to immediately believe Kaladin about Amaram; arguably his support for Shallan over her cool alter egos is this mixed with the previous Oath), and when to step back (everything about how he treats Renarin is honestly exactly what Renarin needs precisely because Adolin knows when to step back and let Renarin stand on his own two feet) all down pat.  

I wonder--how fast can you swear the Oaths?  If you've already internalized their messages, can you swear 2-4 all in a row?  That seems kind of overpowered,  though. 

Well, swearing oaths only really matters for Windrunners, Bondsmiths, and maybe Stonewards.

[GroundPetrel]

8 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, swearing oaths only really matters for Windrunners, Bondsmiths, and maybe Stonewards.

It does seem to for Edgedancers and Skybreakers, too, at a minimum. Lightweavers seem to be the exception with Truths.  

[LuckyJim]

I kinda hope this isn't the case. I think it would be interesting to see Adolin have to start from zero, just like any other Radiant. I think the fact that he's in one of the most privileged positions on the planet, but has the potential to join the order most focused on helping commoners could be really interesting. Yes, he's better than most of the nobility when it comes to this, actually standing up for prostitutes and slaves when they're mistreated, but he's not particularly concerned with the struggles of the lower classes when they're not right in front of him.

This isn't meant to be an attack on Adolin, I just think it would be interesting to see him struggle with the ideals a little bit instead of speedrunning through them. He might have to go without Maya as a blade for a bit, but he's proven that he's more than capable of handling himself without a shardbladde.

26 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, swearing oaths only really matters for Windrunners, Bondsmiths, and maybe Stonewards.

[GroundPetrel]

17 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

I kinda hope this isn't the case. I think it would be interesting to see Adolin have to start from zero, just like any other Radiant. I think the fact that he's in one of the most privileged positions on the planet, but has the potential to join the order most focused on helping commoners could be really interesting. Yes, he's better than most of the nobility when it comes to this, actually standing up for prostitutes and slaves when they're mistreated, but he's not particularly concerned with the struggles of the lower classes when they're not right in front of him.

This isn't meant to be an attack on Adolin, I just think it would be interesting to see him struggle with the ideals a little bit instead of speedrunning through them. He might have to go without Maya as a blade for a bit, but he's proven that he's more than capable of handling himself without a shardbladde.

WRT. the first bolded part: That's fair.  

WRT. the second bolded part: I don't really think that's Adolin's role anyway, and it's not really an Edgedancer thing.  Like, just as Lift doesn't work to build homeless shelters or found legal charities for the unjustly imprisoned; Adolin doesn't have to be the guy who does the big sweeping reforms, and in fact in OB he recognizes that he would really suck at being that guy.  He's the guy who helps people on a small scale while somebody else (Jasnah, especially) is fighting the large-scale fight.  And honestly, that's OK. Sometimes, you just need somebody who does small-scale good.  

[Halyo_Alex]

9 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

WRT. the second bolded part: I don't really think that's Adolin's role anyway, and it's not really an Edgedancer thing.  Like, just as Lift doesn't work to build homeless shelters or found legal charities for the unjustly imprisoned; Adolin doesn't have to be the guy who does the big sweeping reforms, and in fact in OB he recognizes that he would really suck at being that guy.  He's the guy who helps people on a small scale while somebody else (Jasnah, especially) is fighting the large-scale fight.  And honestly, that's OK. Sometimes, you just need somebody who does small-scale good.  

That's why there's more than one Edgedancer, so that several people can fulfill different niches the Oaths provide.

It's kind of like an ecosystem, with different clades specializing for different roles for survival... Except with morals instead of food sources and survival methods.

[GroundPetrel]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That's why there's more than one Edgedancer, so that several people can fulfill different niches the Oaths provide.

It's kind of like an ecosystem, with different clades specializing for different roles for survival... Except with morals instead of food sources and survival methods.

But Edgedancers don't seem to be about fixing big social problems.  They're more about immediate support for those in need.  Hug at the end of the day when you're depressed, sticking up for the unjustly accused, saving somebody in immediate need.  It looks like it's the other orders form different parts of the ecosystem.  

[Halyo_Alex]

17 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

But Edgedancers don't seem to be about fixing big social problems.  They're more about immediate support for those in need.  Hug at the end of the day when you're depressed, sticking up for the unjustly accused, saving somebody in immediate need.  It looks like it's the other orders form different parts of the ecosystem.  

Fair enough!

[NameIess]

19 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

It does seem to for Edgedancers and Skybreakers, too, at a minimum. Lightweavers seem to be the exception with Truths.  

Well, no. I meant that only Bondsmiths and Windrunners, (Possibly Stonewards as well) get a "boost" from swearing oaths.

[GroundPetrel]

17 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Well, no. I meant that only Bondsmiths and Windrunners, (Possibly Stonewards as well) get a "boost" from swearing oaths.

Ah!   You mean the sudden Stormlight boost.  I'll have to reread Lift's chapter in WOR to double-check if she gets more than a Surge unlock then.  

[+robardin]

Well, a very recent WoB strongly implies that Adolin has not sworn, or maybe even could not swear the first Ideal with Maya:

Quote

Jeremy Mahieu

If Adolin said the First Oath to Maya, would the Stormfather have to accept it if Maya did?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not necessarily.

There's more going on here. Even if Maya would... Does he mean the oath? Is he wanting to be part of that Order? There are so many things in that that could prevent... And even, would the Stormfather be the one answering, in that case? Which would probably be a "no."

All kinds of versions of "no" to that question, though it is a good question.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

I think the fact that he still has a "deadspren Blade" bond to Maya via a gem, may be a blocking factor as well. Ironically, while he refused to give Maya up as a Shardblade in order to "free himself" to form a proper Nahel bond with another spren, it could also be preventing him from forming a more true Nahel bond with Maya herself?

Of course, we've seen other people form Radiant bonds while bonded to a deadspren Shardblade: Dalinar, when he bonded the Stormfather (who immediately instructed him to "divest himself of that monstrosity"; Renarin, who must have bonded his Shardblade before bonding with Glys; and Elhokar was on the cusp of saying the Immortal Words in Kholinar to bond with a Cryptic (the one that ends up with Hoid) while having just actively wielded a deadspren Shardblade in battle. So maybe that's not quite true.

However, I still think Adolin's surprising survival from having a building collapse on him at Thaylen Fields, with nothing more than aches and pains, carried a strong suggestion of Stormlight healing, especially given how he had just summoned Maya in only seven heartbeats.

And his being able to give "strength of life" to Maya to speak, instead of the other way around (a spren granting access to Investiture to a bonded human), at his trial in Lasting Integrity... That certainly feels like what I called a Lehan bond (reverse Nahel) at work.

So even if he's not a proto-Radiant with Maya, he's... Something.

[Master Silver]

And whatever Adolin was in Oathbringer, he is more than after RoW. I would be very surprised if he couldn't at least do what Kaladin was doing before swearing any ideals. One thing I did find dis-satisfying about RoW, is that Brandon is making the world too big. The magic system was complicated enough without adding in a bunch of exceptions or changing the magic system. We haven't even seen what all ten orders are capable of or gotten to see what a fifth level radiant is capable of and we are what, 8,000 pages in and the magic system hasn't even been fully defined. I feel like we need 10 short like 120-150 page books that just give us a base line for the orders. Give us a herald  and his order, with a series of short stories. There are even more lose threads at the end of this book, and I feel like Adolin got short changed. 

[GroundPetrel]

33 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

And whatever Adolin was in Oathbringer, he is more than after RoW. I would be very surprised if he couldn't at least do what Kaladin was doing before swearing any ideals. One thing I did find dis-satisfying about RoW, is that Brandon is making the world too big. The magic system was complicated enough without adding in a bunch of exceptions or changing the magic system. We haven't even seen what all ten orders are capable of or gotten to see what a fifth level radiant is capable of and we are what, 8,000 pages in and the magic system hasn't even been fully defined. I feel like we need 10 short like 120-150 page books that just give us a base line for the orders. Give us a herald  and his order, with a series of short stories. There are even more lose threads at the end of this book, and I feel like Adolin got short changed. 

I agree with the first 2 sentences, but honestly, I'm enjoying the insane complexity XD.  The more gets revealed the more I'm enjoying just how in medias res we joined the narrative.  

[Master Silver]

1 hour ago, GroundPetrel said:

I agree with the first 2 sentences, but honestly, I'm enjoying the insane complexity XD.  The more gets revealed the more I'm enjoying just how in medias res we joined the narrative.  

I'm relatively young, but I honestly can see this taking more than 6 books. I did enjoy RoW. I just thought it needed to be another 200 pages to flush out a couple of things. All mysteries don't need to be revealed of course. But we could have used another 50 pages in Shadesmar so it wasn't so choppy. Would have enjoyed listening to the beginning of a Shallan and Kalak conversation. I also would have liked to have seen a little bit more done with the plate. What we got was amazing, but after waiting three books (and these are Stormlight books so they are huge). I was just hoping to see living plate get taken for more of a spin. The reveal about the Reachers at the end was game changing, but again seemed like loads of things happened off screen and having at least a few more bread crumbs wouldn't have hurt. Same thing goes with a Sibling,Navanii, Stormfather Dalinar conversation. All of those things I feel would have added to the story, and been a way to fill in some of the gaps. I am starting to feel like we need a systematics text book for the magic system which is then going to get completely upended and thrown out because we will have a bunch of new hybrid spren doing things that no one has ever seen before, but we haven't even seen all or really most of what the old magic system can do. Again we are +5000 pages in. And 18 years from the end of the story. I love it, but :-(

[GroundPetrel]

The fact that I'm gonna be 42 before this is done blows my mind almost as much as anything in ROW, honestly.  I have no idea how somebody can be so focused on getting one idea so right for so long.  XD

[+robardin]

9 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I'm relatively young, but I honestly can see this taking more than 6 books. I did enjoy RoW. I just thought it needed to be another 200 pages to flush out a couple of things. All mysteries don't need to be revealed of course. ... Again we are +5000 pages in. And 18 years from the end of the story. I love it, but :-(

Sanderson's modus is always to leave some open questions for the reader to "fill in the blanks" on their own, even for a completed story (which also leaves him a handy back door to re-enter a series or continuity when/if he so wishes). It's why he's also a very fanfic friendly type writer.

9 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

The fact that I'm gonna be 42 before this is done blows my mind almost as much as anything in ROW, honestly.  I have no idea how somebody can be so focused on getting one idea so right for so long.  XD

The prospect of having to spend 18 years of your life waiting for six more epic fantasy novels unnerves you, starting in your early-mid twenties? Oh, you sweet child of summer. The both of yous.

[WasingtheWhy]

I personally think Adolin might go a long while without becoming a Radiant, if he ever does. Of all the characters, I think he would do the best as the lone figure without a nahel bond. He is a very important POV character, and his view of events without a spren I think will be important moving forward. I think there might be some kind of strange reverse-bond happening between him and Maya, which I have seen other people post about before, so it's not a new theory. But Adolin I think will fill a different role through the rest of the story as opposed to being another Radiant.

13 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

The fact that I'm gonna be 42 before this is done blows my mind almost as much as anything in ROW, honestly.  I have no idea how somebody can be so focused on getting one idea so right for so long.  XD

I first started The Wheel of Time in 1994, when I was about 9. I remember reading those books and waiting eagerly for Jordan to release the next one. That was before I could troll the internet every day looking for news about release dates. Took me 20 years to finally reach the end of that one.

As a side note, I actually had never heard of Brandon Sanderson until I found out he was going to finish The Wheel of Time. Then I read Mistborn. And the rest, as they say, is history. 

[Elithanathile10]

On 12/20/2020 at 1:05 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I mean... I WANT to see it happen. And it doesn't sound impossible, if maybe he has to say the words at Maya's prompting swiftly after the release of BAM.

As much as I think Adolin is worth of Radiance, and would love to see him as a Radiant, I honestly think it would be even better if Adolin DIDN'T become a Radiant, narratively anyways. If he can make it through the Desolation and all that it comes with without superpowers, while taking a central role, well. That would be something.

[wordspren]

4 hours ago, Elithanathile10 said:

As much as I think Adolin is worth of Radiance, and would love to see him as a Radiant, I honestly think it would be even better if Adolin DIDN'T become a Radiant, narratively anyways. If he can make it through the Desolation and all that it comes with without superpowers, while taking a central role, well. That would be something.

Honestly, I agree. I think it's more interesting to see Adolin as a non-Radiant. He doesn't seem to feel like he's lacking anything by not being a Radiant, and I don't think his character needs it right now. I like the dynamic of having a non-Radiant Kholin, right next to the center of the politics and power of the KR.

[GroundPetrel]

I can understand that perspective, but at the same time, I want there to be eventual payoff for his arc caring for Maya.  

Actually, even stupider idea: Adolin goes to the Nightwatcher trying to get the Nightwatcher to heal Maya, and offers to take the curse on himself.  

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, GroundPetrel said:

Adolin goes to the Nightwatcher trying to get the Nightwatcher to heal Maya, and offers to take the curse on himself. 

The "curse" is that it takes a part of his spirit to heal her, causing the much-theorized "reverse nahel bond" (or lehan bond as I saw once, which actually doesn't sound half bad) to take place.

[FollowYourMuse]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:51 PM, GroundPetrel said:

The fact that I'm gonna be 42 before this is done blows my mind almost as much as anything in ROW, honestly.  I have no idea how somebody can be so focused on getting one idea so right for so long.  XD

 

On 12/22/2020 at 11:16 AM, WasingtheWhy said:

I first started The Wheel of Time in 1994, when I was about 9. I remember reading those books and waiting eagerly for Jordan to release the next one. That was before I could troll the internet every day looking for news about release dates. Took me 20 years to finally reach the end of that one.

As a side note, I actually had never heard of Brandon Sanderson until I found out he was going to finish The Wheel of Time. Then I read Mistborn. And the rest, as they say, is history. 

I started WoT in 1990 when it came out, I did find Sanderson before he took on WoT, I was looking for a stand alone book so picked up Elantris. (So much for that idea ) 
I am just hoping I make it to finish all 10 books, and then some to read Hoids book. 
.