[all Cosmere] Worldhopping limits, Cognitive Shadows, Seons and a hypothetical scene I'd really love to see a fanart of.

[Eri Arbiter]

At the yt spoiler livestream (which I saw only yesterday, because in my timezone it was live in the middle of the night ) someone asked about why Seons can travel out of Sel even though they're Splinters and Brandon said it was a great question and knowing the answer would help Thaidakar (whom I 100% assume to be Kelsier) a lot.

My hypothesis is that Seons have a part of the land they're Connected to inside themselves (the Aon), so they can travel because instead of being anchored to something huge and immobile, they're anchored to something they carry inside.

I'm not sure how Vasher being able to worldhop factors into that, maybe the Divine Breath also works as something he can be anchored to?

…Anyway now I can't get rid of a mental image of Kelsier traveling, Dracula-style, in a coffin filled with metal shavings from his homeland. 

[StormFather! Awakened Object]

With Vasher, I’m pretty sure that Endowment investiture has no Connection with Nalthis, because it is a gift that is Endowed with no strings attached.

[wiritospren Awakened Object]

35 minutes ago, StormFather! said:

With Vasher, I’m pretty sure that Endowment investiture has no Connection with Nalthis, because it is a gift that is Endowed with no strings attached.

It must have connection with endowment, and endowment surely have a connection with at least a part of the land. 

[Brgst13 Misting]

1 hour ago, StormFather! said:

With Vasher, I’m pretty sure that Endowment investiture has no Connection with Nalthis, because it is a gift that is Endowed with no strings attached.

I have to disagree with this, the Investiture is connected to Endowment, and she is connected to Nalthis.  I wonder, though, if with enough Breaths Vasher could Awaken a rock or other item with a Command such as "Become as Nalthis and Connect me."  He could then take that object with him as his Connection 

[Kingsdaughter613 Dawnsinger]

5 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

I have to disagree with this, the Investiture is connected to Endowment, and she is connected to Nalthis.  I wonder, though, if with enough Breaths Vasher could Awaken a rock or other item with a Command such as "Become as Nalthis and Connect me."  He could then take that object with him as his Connection 

Divine Breaths not being Connected to Nalthis is cannon.

[Brgst13 Misting]

Agreed, but what about all the regular Breaths?  And what about his Connection as a Cognitive Shadow?

[Aspiring Writer Elantrian]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Divine Breaths not being Connected to Nalthis is cannon.

WoB, please. I must expand this knowledge.

[Kingsdaughter613 Dawnsinger]

3 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

WoB, please. I must expand this knowledge.

Badger1289

If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one.

Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not.

[Oltux72 Worldbringer]

8 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

Agreed, but what about all the regular Breaths?

A regular Breath always has the Identity of its last bearer regardless of its source or path. We know this from the inability to take somebody else's Breath out of an object.

8 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

And what about his Connection as a Cognitive Shadow?

You see, here we are entering circular reasoning.

We have no evidence a Cognitive Shadow is held back due to being a Cognitive Shadow. The only entities we know are held back are Kelsier, Spren and Heralds.

• Heralds are subject to the Oathpact
• Spren are a part of Roshar
• Kelsier was kept going by Preservation's Investiture

In other words I can see no proof that an effect other than Investiture being bound to a place by Identity exists.

Now we may ask, why could Nightblood leave Nalthis? It should be bound to Shashara. That gives us a correlation.

1. Nightblood - Shashara: dead
2. Dor - Dominion & Devotion: dead
3. Seons - Dominion & Devotion: dead

[Proletariat Ardent]

That question was me!  Still trying to puzzle it out.

As for Vasher/Zahel, there's a difference between someone who is just an Awakener (like Vivenna/Azure), and someone who is Returned. He's fundamentally the same as the Heralds except that he knows what he is doing as per WOB below. 

His case is different from the Seon, because the Ghostbloods don't even know how to get a wisp of Stormlight from the Rosharan system so clearly don't know how Returned can move around either. In the livestream Brandon also said there was something anomalous about things that come from Elantris, which suggests the rules are slightly different here.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1537

 

Quote

Questioner

Have we seen cameos of Heralds on other Shardworlds?

Brandon Sanderson

The Heralds are tied to the system by the magic that permeates them. They could not leave.

Questioner

I thought I saw someone but I guess not.

Brandon Sanderson

It’s part of the magic. Some would call them Cognitive Shadows, right? Whether they are or not. "Cognitive Shadow" is a very ambiguous term in the cosmere. It means, basically your soul-- It's the same thing with petrification, right? Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it. You have seen people do it.

Questioner

Who?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher... You have seen people do it. But anyone who's got-- yeah.

 

 

 

 

[Brgst13 Misting]

This was the WoB I was thinking of, just needed to dig it up.  Pretty clear that CSs are tied to their systems.

[POTUS24 Darkeyes]

I feel like that the WoB could  be interpreted to mean that the rest of the returned would have a difficult time leaving Nalthis? If they didn't have vashers method?  

On 12/20/2020 at 10:17 AM, Brgst13 said:

I have to disagree with this, the Investiture is connected to Endowment, and she is connected to Nalthis.  I wonder, though, if with enough Breaths Vasher could Awaken a rock or other item with a Command such as "Become as Nalthis and Connect me."  He could then take that object with him as his Connection 

I think this may be valid and vasher would probably have the breaths to pull it off. However I also think that it's too ambiguous of a command. It seems like there's too much wiggle room that either he would need to be spot on with the intent or he would need a more refined command. Part of me also feels like if it was something like that he would have tossed in a hint to it like a specific pair of sandals he always wears or something and I don't think there's been anything like that. 

 

[Proletariat Ardent]

Oh, thinking about it. Those pipelines of Dor that the Ire have set up allow them to effectively maintain their location while going incredibly far. It probably relies upon there being an Ire outpost in each system.

The voidspren effectively were able to travel from Braise to Roshar via the Everstorm, so will similar events need to be instigated on other systems to allow spren to travel? Giving them outposts as it were?

[POTUS24 Darkeyes]

8 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Oh, thinking about it. Those pipelines of Dor that the Ire have set up allow them to effectively maintain their location while going incredibly far. It probably relies upon there being an Ire outpost in each system.

The voidspren effectively were able to travel from Braise to Roshar via the Everstorm, so will similar events need to be instigated on other systems to allow spren to travel? Giving them outposts as it were?

That makes sense i thought that the everstorm only really worked because taln eventually broke. The everstorm was sitting there making people uncomfortable for a long time until gavilar's people started going into shadesmar and pulled ulim through using a gem which raises some other questions. But ulim was able to set in motion the rest after taln was back on Roshar. Now that it's laid out I wouldn't be surprised if the way a cognitive shadow gets off world has something to do with the investiture that they are connected to. So ire use the dor lines Zahel may have used a rock, the void spren had the everstorm, so I wouldn't be surprised if kelsier has to use feruchemy since he's a sliver of preservation. However the one wrench I'm seeing is that at the same time the ire answer the question. They mention shades from threnody. Which threw me for a loop because they are literally cognitive shadows but trying to piece details together from their one and only short story is rough and I have no clue how or why there would be one all the way at the edge of the Scadrial system by itself. Or for there to be enough for the ire to be unconcerned. 

[Oltux72 Worldbringer]

3 hours ago, Proletariat said:

Oh, thinking about it. Those pipelines of Dor that the Ire have set up allow them to effectively maintain their location while going incredibly far. It probably relies upon there being an Ire outpost in each system.

Relies in which sense? Of course the pipes have to end somewhere. But that does not explain why the Dor can be pumped, while Stormlight cannot.

3 hours ago, Proletariat said:

The voidspren effectively were able to travel from Braise to Roshar via the Everstorm, so will similar events need to be instigated on other systems to allow spren to travel? Giving them outposts as it were?

The Fused went from Braize to Roshar in prior Desolations before the Everstorm existed.

Among the Cognitive Shadows we have seen or heared about the vast majority can travel.

• the Returned
• the armies of Threnody the Ire guarded against
• the Shade in Nazriloff's gun
• the future Dalinar who would lead Odium's forces out into the Cosmere

Among those who cannot travel we have those who are subject to the oath pact

• the Heralds
• the Fused

It is unclear whether they could leave even if they were perfectly normal corporate beings.

In fact we have one single example of a Cognitive Shadow being pulled back due to its nature. One:

• Kelsier

Do we really want to build a theory on one unambiguous example against numerous counterexamples or find out what is exceptional about Kelsier, such as being generated in a perpendicularity?

[Proletariat Ardent]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Relies in which sense? Of course the pipes have to end somewhere. But that does not explain why the Dor can be pumped, while Stormlight cannot.

The Fused went from Braize to Roshar in prior Desolations before the Everstorm existed.

Among the Cognitive Shadows we have seen or heared about the vast majority can travel.

• the Returned
• the armies of Threnody the Ire guarded against
• the Shade in Nazriloff's gun
• the future Dalinar who would lead Odium's forces out into the Cosmere

Among those who cannot travel we have those who are subject to the oath pact

• the Heralds
• the Fused

It is unclear whether they could leave even if they were perfectly normal corporate beings.

In fact we have one single example of a Cognitive Shadow being pulled back due to its nature. One:

• Kelsier

Do we really want to build a theory on one unambiguous example against numerous counterexamples or find out what is exceptional about Kelsier, such as being generated in a perpendicularity?

Kelsier, the Heralds, the Fused, and implicitly the Returned unless they know how to do it (as per the previous WoB) are almost every instance of Cognitive Shadow. We've never seen a shade of Threnody leave the system, and the dialogue of the Ire in Secret History implies that it has not yet happened. The gun that Nazh has is only described via an embellished broadsheet, and we're yet to see anything of the sort from Dalinar or the mechanics by which it happens. 

It feels pretty clear from what Brandon has said is that Investiture generally doesn't automatically have the same issues leaving its place of origin. We've even seen atium metalminds discretely used in RoW as well as hyper invested things like Nightblood and whatever Vivenna's sword is called, as well as users of the invested arts such as allomancers, feruchemists, awakeners, elantrians, and aviar. It is a bit more difficult for investiture in general linked to Honour (who may as well be called cohesion, binding, structure, or whatever) to leave the system.

This is a separate question to Cognitive Shadows with the only person we've seen accomplish this being Vasher, and Vasher is meant to have mastered some kind of method. Kelsier wants to find out this method. I don't really understand where the strong certainty that Kelsier is the sole example of his issue is meant to be based upon.

[Eri Arbiter]

1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

We've even seen atium metalminds discretely used in RoW

Wait, what? 

[Kingsdaughter613 Dawnsinger]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:24 AM, Proletariat said:

That question was me!  Still trying to puzzle it out.

As for Vasher/Zahel, there's a difference between someone who is just an Awakener (like Vivenna/Azure), and someone who is Returned. He's fundamentally the same as the Heralds except that he knows what he is doing as per WOB below. 

His case is different from the Seon, because the Ghostbloods don't even know how to get a wisp of Stormlight from the Rosharan system so clearly don't know how Returned can move around either. In the livestream Brandon also said there was something anomalous about things that come from Elantris, which suggests the rules are slightly different here.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1537

 

 

 

The Ghostbloods do know how to get Investiture off Roshar. This was explicitly stated in the book.

Kelsier is unique because he’s a Sliver. So he may no longer follow the exact same rules as the Heralds. Originally he probably did.

Brandon has been unclear about the Returned. The one you cited was several years older than the one I referenced. We really need more clarification on this.

[Proletariat Ardent]

1 hour ago, Eri said:

Wait, what? 

In the prologue one of the stewards with 'too many rings on his fingers' and then later on Navani sees someone who could've been the steward but is 20 years difference. It's a blink and you missed it thing that's not really that relevant to the plot IMO.

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Ghostbloods do know how to get Investiture off Roshar. This was explicitly stated in the book.

Kelsier is unique because he’s a Sliver. So he may no longer follow the exact same rules as the Heralds. Originally he probably did.

Brandon has been unclear about the Returned. The one you cited was several years older than the one I referenced. We really need more clarification on this.

I think it's worth noting that the one you referenced is about Breath and Awakeners, it doesn't specify Divine Breath and Returned. 

[Kingsdaughter613 Dawnsinger]

24 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

In the prologue one of the stewards with 'too many rings on his fingers' and then later on Navani sees someone who could've been the steward but is 20 years difference. It's a blink and you missed it thing that's not really that relevant to the plot IMO.

I think it's worth noting that the one you referenced is about Breath and Awakeners, it doesn't specify Divine Breath and Returned. 

True, that’s why I said we need further clarification.

[Watchdog84 Spren]

 

41 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

In the prologue one of the stewards with 'too many rings on his fingers' and then later on Navani sees someone who could've been the steward but is 20 years difference. It's a blink and you missed it thing that's not really that relevant to the plot IMO.

I think it's worth noting that the one you referenced is about Breath and Awakeners, it doesn't specify Divine Breath and Returned. 

I think it's one of two things. Either the Returned are Connected to their Divine Breath and their Divine Breath back to themselves. Might be connected to how they lose all of their memory like how a Sout Stamp rewrites a history. Or he just adjusts his Connection as he goes by modifying his Breath like he did with that little girl.

[Oltux72 Worldbringer]

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

Kelsier,

Well, was Kelsier tied to Scadrial? No, not initially. He was tied to the Well of Ascension. When did that cease? When the well was emptied. So you want to assume that the linkage to the Well and the link to the Scadian system were two independent phenomena?

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

the Heralds,

Are subject to the oathpact

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

the Fused,

Usually cannot even leave Braize. Their movement is artificially limited. It tells us nothing

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

and implicitly the Returned

They built Nightblood based on alien precedents. They must have been able to travel centuries ago.

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

unless they know how to do it (as per the previous WoB)

Then we should read Brandon exactly

Quote

Investiture replaced your soul, and permeated your soul, and your soul continues to exist, but... you are usually Invested with something, that's tied, and you're basically like pure Investiture then. You're tied to the thing you're Connected to. Most of the things that you're gonna see with that, travelling is going to be very difficult, unless you know how to do it.

Invested with something that's tied. Something is added to you that is tied. You yourself are not tied.

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

are almost every instance of Cognitive Shadow. We've never seen a shade of Threndy leave the system, and the dialogue of the Ire in Secret History implies that it has not yet happened.

So the Ire built a device specifically against Threnodite Shades, put troops on their border and trained their troops to recognise Cognitive Shadows correctly, just to guard against an unprecedented eventuality?

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

The gun that Nazh has is only described via an embellished broadsheet, and we're yet to see anything of the sort from Dalinar or the mechanics by which it happens. 

Odium would demand a Fused he could not get off world to do precisely that?

4 hours ago, Proletariat said:

It feels pretty clear from what Brandon has said is that Investiture generally doesn't automatically have the same issues leaving its place of origin.

Ehm. That is exactly what he said. Sel is the exception.

Now Nightblood can be moved. People with huge numbers of Breaths can travel. God metals can be moved. So what does not work? Primarily gaseous Investiture not from Sel.

 

[Proletariat Ardent]

This is probably going to be my final clarification.

I don't think it's impossible for cognitive shadows to leave their planets of origin. My interpretation of Brandon's WOB that I posted above, the dilemma that Kelsier is trying to resolve [which Brandon refers to as being due to being a Cognitive Shadow here], and the restrictions upon the Heralds and Fused is that it is not possible without a specific method that is not generally known but that Vasher probably knows it. There are a wide variety of things you can do that are theoretically possible - like Awaken with Stormlight or enter into Sel - but are not viable under ordinary conditions unless you know some kind of hack [which is not to get into the mechanics of these, but simply to state that getting Cognitive Shadows off system is not an ordinary feat that anyone can just do at the moment]. This assumption is reinforced by this WoB about Kelsier, which compares his dilemma to a spren.

I personally do not find your examples persuasive of the idea that Cognitive Shadows can usually leave their systems with ease since most of them are based on things that haven't happened yet like Dalinar becoming Odium's interplanetary Fused general, Threnody's shades invading the rest of the galaxy, or generalising Vasher's experience to all Returned. I do not find these examples persuasive not out of a belief that Cognitive Shadows will never be able to leave [because we know pretty much anything is possible], but because we do not have any understanding of the mechanism that any of these theoretical events may or may not happen such that we can add them in as evidence for something.

Moreover, I don't think it makes sense for the story if Kelsier/Thaidakar is the exception to the norm, because it means any progress that the Ghostbloods make on transporting Investiture has no impact on any broader plot that involves him leaving Scadrial. It makes more sense if there's some hack, and that hints to what that hack is are seen in the Seon case which is why Brandon thinks whether a random Splinter can leave Sel is informative as to why a Cognitive Shadow could one day leave Scadrial. If there were no common mechanics at all, then there wouldn't be much to ponder or deduce and the answer would come out of nowhere rather than be seeded in the books. 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Proletariat