[ROW Spoiler question] Who all can accept Oaths??

[athosdebro86]

A Femalin voice accepted Venli's oath.  Before RoW the ONLY voice we've heard accept oaths was Storm Father.  As Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, it made sense, but to be fair, he's a God-Spren Bondsmith Spren, and the oaths we've heard him accept were Dalinar's (his own bondsmith) and Windrunner oaths (the order closest to Honor based on Adhesion being Honor's Surge). 

In RoW: 

The Sibling accepted Navani's bondsmith oath (Sibling is another Godspren Bondsmith spren, so makes sense.  BUT can they accept anyone else's oaths IF they are sworn in the Tower?)

DALINAR?!??!  Accepted Kaladin's 4th Oath!!!!! (as stated in Oathbringer, due to changes made to Stormfather before Honor's death, Dalinar-Stormfather's brand of bondsmith is different than usual, plus Dalinar has some link to the Spiritual Realm that even Stormfather can't feel AND Rayse said Dalinar ASCENDED in Oathbringer, perhaps in the way that Rashek ASCENDED temporarily in Mistborn)

A mysterious Femalen voice accepted Venli's Oath (As Sibling and Stormfather have both accepeted oaths, is this Nightwatcher????  OR IS IT CULTIVATION!!?  Cultivation DOES have a habit of stepping in instead of Nightwatcher at specific moments (Lift, Dalinar, Taravangian Old Magic materials).  And the Progression of Radiants through their Oaths seems to be Cultivation's influence (growing spiritually) in Surgebinding AND Progression seems to be Cultivation's Surge (Lift could still use it the way Kaladin could still use Adhesion when Raboniel reversed the Tower's defenses)

Hypothesis: ALL THREE BONDSMITH SPREN can accept oaths.  The Shardholders of Honor and Cultivation (historically and in present and future) can accept oaths as they are linked to the Magic system the way Harmony is linked to all 3 Metallic Arts.

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by athosdebro86

[+Oltux72]

I am afraid I have to doubt that there is a personality behind those acceptances. That is because oaths are not specific to the Knights Radiant. Who accepts the oaths Shards make? Who decides on the term of the oathpact? It looks to me like assuming a personal instance here multiplies entities without need. Ishar constructed something based on Bondsmith abilities when he imposed the oaths on the Surgebinders. That decides.

[Realmatic Shadow]

3 hours ago, athosdebro86 said:

BUT can he accept anyone else's oaths IF they are sworn in the Tower?)

very angry gender neutral 'they' sounds

Also on the actual topic here, I think that outside of the Windrunners, each order's oaths are accepted by their bonded spren, with the Windrunners being quite the exception because of how closely they are associated with Honor, and the Stormfather (and apparently his Bondsmith as well now) being in charge of accepting those oaths. So by that logic the voice we heard accepting Venli's oath at the end of the book was Timbre, with this being one of the very few (or I think maybe the only) scene we've seen where she speaks directly, instead of using the rhythms and the general impressions Radiants get from their spren.

I would be curious if any of the Bondsmith spren and Bondsmiths can accept the Windrunner oaths, or if that is a Stormfather exclusive thing (with him being the most Honor aligned god-spren).  Would they then also be able to accept the oaths of any order, or is that something that can only be done for the Windrunners?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

very angry gender neutral 'they' sounds

We call Nightblood he.

Also The Sibling is closer to AI so I think 'It' would be more appropriate.

 

1 hour ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

Also on the actual topic here, I think that outside of the Windrunners, each order's oaths are accepted by their bonded spren, with the Windrunners being quite the exception because of how closely they are associated with Honor, and the Stormfather (and apparently his Bondsmith as well now) being in charge of accepting those oaths. So by that logic the voice we heard accepting Venli's oath at the end of the book was Timbre, with this being one of the very few (or I think maybe the only) scene we've seen where she speaks directly, instead of using the rhythms and the general impressions Radiants get from their spren.

I would be curious if any of the Bondsmith spren and Bondsmiths can accept the Windrunner oaths, or if that is a Stormfather exclusive thing (with him being the most Honor aligned god-spren).  Would they then also be able to accept the oaths of any order, or is that something that can only be done for the Windrunners?

The voice was mentioned as coming from far away so I doubt it was Timbre.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

We call Nightblood he.

Also The Sibling is closer to AI so I think 'It' would be more appropriate.

The Sibling is still as much a person, regardless of their humanity, same goes for a sufficiently developed AI. I'd call them however they identify as.

Besides, this isn't just a technicality thing, this is more of a gender identity thing. Be nice!

 

I don't know about Ishar creating the Oaths, he might've put limitations tying back to the Oaths. The Oaths seem more based on the spren's nature. How more dangerous powers are locked till progressing further in the the Ideals however seems more like an intelligent design, though that could've been Honor and/or Cultivation.

Edited December 19, 2020 by Honorless

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

The Sibling is still as much a person, regardless of their humanity, same goes for a sufficiently developed AI. I'd call them however they identify as.

We can discuss the semantics of this but personally I don't see the spren as fully 'alive'.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

We call Nightblood he.

Also The Sibling is closer to AI so I think 'It' would be more appropriate.

 

Nightblood is way closer to AI than the sibling, he’s literally been described as kind of a robot spren by Brandon. But even then, still just use the right pronouns for spren whether or not they’re alive. It’s 1) easier, 2) more correct since that’s the pronouns they use, and 3) nicer to real life people who have to deal with this kind of thing. Nightblood uses he/him so we call him he him, the sibling uses they/them so we call them they/them, and syl uses she/her so we call her she/her. It’s literally that easy. I mean people will call a boat she

[athosdebro86]

11 hours ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

very angry gender neutral 'they' sounds

Fair point, given the nature of the Sibling.  I've edited the original post

[LuckyJim]

I think a lot of people can "accept" words.

Just to add to this topic, Szeth's second ideal was accepted by his Skybreaker master, Ki. Since Skybreakers don't bond spren until they reach the third ideal, it's probably other Skybreakers that accept their first and second ideals. (Speaking of which, did Nale accept his third ideal, or did no one say "these words are accepted"?)

Also, wasn't it Pattern/Testament the one to say "the words are accepted" when Shallan spoke her truths? This might make sense for Lightweavers, since their truths are much more personal, and can't really be confirmed by an outside party.

[Honorless]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

We can discuss the semantics of this but personally I don't see the spren as fully 'alive'.

A big point of the book was that spren are people too: with the trial, the Sibling, Sja-Anat, Syl

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

A big point of the book was that spren are people too: with the trial, the Sibling, Sja-Anat, Syl

The obvious counter is that The Sibling, like Nightblood, was created as a tool. The whole contrast makes me doubt Honor's ethics.

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

The obvious counter is that The Sibling, like Nightblood, was created as a tool. The whole contrast makes me doubt Honor's ethics.

Hmm... are you religious? Do you believe in Creationism? 

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... are you religious? Do you believe in Creationism? 

No. Though in case of the Cosmere, partial creationism is the only sane explanation. Adonalsium created the Singers and Honor and Cultivation created The Sibling.

[Honorless]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

No. Though in case of the Cosmere, partial creationism is the only sane explanation. Adonalsium created the Singers and Honor and Cultivation created The Sibling.

Mhm-hmm, my point being that being a created entity does not make an individual any less of a person.

 

Honor's ethics were already in doubt with the god switch between human and Singers, the Heralds' Oathpact, how many Desolations the Rosharans had to go through while Honor and Cultivation effectively lied to them, he might not have been a bad dude, but he was clearly far from perfect

[signspace13]

I have always gotten the impression that it was Honor's job to accept the oath's before now, at least for the orders most aligned with him (the top half of the knights radiant double eye), and that that passed to the Stormfather upon his death. I imagine Cultivation still does her job for the other Half, I don't know if I'd trust the Nightwatcher to do it, or the sibling for that matter, for anyone but their own Bondsmiths.

[+Oltux72]

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Mhm-hmm, my point being that being a created entity does not make an individual any less of a person.

Now we are getting deep into philosophy. And into very dangerous areas. The Cosmere by design has entities without free will. Nightblood is a prime example. He cannot even think that he might not want to follow his Command. So aside from purely practical considerations of what happens if The Sibling decides to dedicate himself and Urithiru to chull breeding, is that possible? And given the purpose of Urithiru is it honorable?

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Honor's ethics were already in doubt with the god switch between human and Singers, the Heralds' Oathpact, how many Desolations the Rosharans had to go through while Honor and Cultivation effectively lied to them, he might not have been a bad dude, but he was clearly far from perfect

Indeed.

32 minutes ago, signspace13 said:

I have always gotten the impression that it was Honor's job to accept the oath's before now, at least for the orders most aligned with him (the top half of the knights radiant double eye), and that that passed to the Stormfather upon his death. I imagine Cultivation still does her job for the other Half, I don't know if I'd trust the Nightwatcher to do it, or the sibling for that matter, for anyone but their own Bondsmiths.

That implies that Cultivation would let Ishar tell her what her job is to be. That I have trouble seeing.

[Honorless]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:17 PM, Oltux72 said:

Now we are getting deep into philosophy. And into very dangerous areas. The Cosmere by design has entities without free will. Nightblood is a prime example. He cannot even think that he might not want to follow his Command. So aside from purely practical considerations of what happens if The Sibling decides to dedicate himself and Urithiru to chull breeding, is that possible? And given the purpose of Urithiru is it honorable?

Well, the Free Will debate we should probably leave aside. As for Commands, we have biological drives too. But the Sibling is also stuck in a position (literally, they're an immobile fortress) where they can't escape the war that they do not want to participate in again. On the other hand, not participating would equal expecting sacrifices from others and not doing the same in return. The moral dilemma they face is the same as a human would face if they want to remain neutral in that conflict, but heightened. Nightblood is forced towards certain actions but does seem to be alive and capable of making decisions, he's just not very mature yet.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Honorless

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

A big point of the book was that spren are people too: with the trial, the Sibling, Sja-Anat, Syl

Individuals, I see them closer to talking swords from classic fantasy, I don't even list Syl/pattern as characters. 

[Halyo_Alex]

20 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't see the spren as fully 'alive'.

This Frustrates me deeply.

Spren are sentient/sapient, can feel pain (and react the way you'd expect), have empathy.

If you're comparing them to an AI I'd love to see what super advanced AGI you're hiding.

Anyway rant over I'll stop derailing the topic at hand.

[Honorless]

16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Individuals, I see them closer to talking swords from classic fantasy, I don't even list Syl/Pattern as characters. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Pretty sure it was Cultivation.  The Stormfather accepts Oaths, but he's basically the remnants of Honor.  Dalinar accepts an oath, because he is essentially becoming Honor, slowly.  I think only Cultivation and Honor can accept oaths, and MAYBE Odium, but idk about the last one.  Maybe Odium will accept oaths spoken by Renarin?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 12/19/2020 at 3:24 PM, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Nightblood uses he/him so we call him he him

Note that Nightblood does not call themself he/him, Vasher kinda just started using those pronouns and everyone else went with it. Lift uses she/her in Oathbringer to refer to it, and Szeth just says "sword-nimi" without either gender pronoun. Nightblood themself doesn't even understand gender yet, though the concept interests them.

Quote

Heartlight

What is Nightblood's opinions on gender, and who decided on him having he/him pronouns?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is fascinated by gender, and trying to figure it out. Unlike spren like Syl, Nightblood has not self gender assigned as an influence of interacting with humans. That said, Vasher was probably the one who just started calling him He, so if you want to take the issue up with anyone, go to him.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 13, 2015)

[Quantus]

On 5/9/2021 at 11:44 AM, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Pretty sure it was Cultivation.  The Stormfather accepts Oaths, but he's basically the remnants of Honor.  Dalinar accepts an oath, because he is essentially becoming Honor, slowly.  I think only Cultivation and Honor can accept oaths, and MAYBE Odium, but idk about the last one.  Maybe Odium will accept oaths spoken by Renarin?

This is the camp Im in at the moment as well.  Much in the way it was Honor (and I assume Cultivation equally) that facilitated Spren procreating before Honor granted that to the Stormfather, I think it was the Shards (or in the case of Honor his current Proxy), that accepted Oaths.  I dont think Odium has yet had the opportunity to accept a proper Voidbringer Oath (and Im entirely uncertain if they will have their own Words).  But I do think it's something that the new management may come around to...

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

This is the camp Im in at the moment as well.  Much in the way it was Honor (and I assume Cultivation equally) that facilitated Spren procreating before Honor granted that to the Stormfather, I think it was the Shards (or in the case of Honor his current Proxy), that accepted Oaths.  I dont think Odium has yet had the opportunity to accept a proper Voidbringer Oath (and Im entirely uncertain if they will have their own Words).  But I do think it's something that the new management may come around to...

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.  It seems as though Odium--either on purpose or by accident--invested in Roshar, and I think it'd be really cool to see Knights Radiant of Odium.

[Halyo_Alex]

42 minutes ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me.  It seems as though Odium--either on purpose or by accident--invested in Roshar, and I think it'd be really cool to see Knights Radiant of Odium.

Or as I semi-jokingly call them, Knights Voidiant.