[Discussion] Deadeyes

[Autobrecciation]

So, Shallan has a deadeyes spren, which I kind of thought nothing of until the livestream Thursday where Brandon said something to the effect of "Old knights radiant that broke their oaths did not make a deadeyes". This plus the "WE CHOSE" moment has implications for deadeyes. I think that in order to become a deadeyes, more than just breaking the oaths has to happen, the spren has to choose to die with the oath (Likely for some motive with the Knight Radiant involved). What the heck does that mean for Shallan? I think Testament probably chose to become a deadeyes to help Shallan conceal the Truth from even herself.

I was also confused about Heleran, and his shardblade but I've realized I'm just an idiot for believing anything Mraize had to say rather than realizing Heleran was probably working for the Ghostbloods.

[LuckyJim]

38 minutes ago, Autobrecciation said:

I was also confused about Heleran, and his shardblade but I've realized I'm just an idiot for believing anything Mraize had to say rather than realizing Heleran was probably working for the Ghostbloods.

According to Mraize, Helaran had never actually become a full Skybreaker. My take on the matter is that the Skybreakers are in possession of a number of shards of their own, possibly for use by squires and trainees, which were given to Helaran while he was in training. Another benefit would be that bonding a dead blade could help prevent a potential Radiant from completing their bond with a spren (which the Skybreakers believed Helaran was close to doing).

With the shards, Helaran would be able to complete more advanced missions that other squires couldn't, and gain the attention of a potential master or highspren to bond.

[Bigmikey357]

I think Helaran was a Ghostblood.  It really doesn't make sense for him to be a Skybreaker. They had no beef with the SoH, Amaram was nothing like close to attracting a spren, and they aren't sending a squire unattended anywhere,  especially not with dead shards. But if he were a Ghostblood,  well I'm sure they could obtain blade and plate pretty easily,  Amaram's awareness of the deeper game makes him a prime target for a hunt, plus the way he went about slaughtering on the battlefield on his way to Amaram looks like something a GB candidate would consider to be a valid tactic. 

[GameOfGroans]

I was thinking something on the line of, before the Recreance Honor was still alive (I guess?), so maybe that made a difference, but I also read a theory where imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram caused deadeyes happening as a side-effect for whatever reason (not that deadeyes were caused by imprisoning her, but after she was imprisoned, spren started dying as a result of broken oaths?). I wouldn't necessarily put my spheres on any of that, though.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 12/19/2020 at 0:05 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

I think Helaran was a Ghostblood.  It really doesn't make sense for him to be a Skybreaker. They had no beef with the SoH, Amaram was nothing like close to attracting a spren, and they aren't sending a squire unattended anywhere,  especially not with dead shards. But if he were a Ghostblood,  well I'm sure they could obtain blade and plate pretty easily,  Amaram's awareness of the deeper game makes him a prime target for a hunt, plus the way he went about slaughtering on the battlefield on his way to Amaram looks like something a GB candidate would consider to be a valid tactic. 

That’s questionable, actually. Under some circumstances, sure. The GBs are trying to stay under the radar here though.

Kell only made as much noise as he did in TFE because he was trying to instigate a house war and was trying to make a name for himself in preparation for his real plan. There’s no reason for that here. He knows how to kill quietly; he actually does more of that than out and out battles in Mistborn. There’s a reason no one blames him for the suspicious deaths around Luthadel. Kelsier is a guile hero first; yes, he can do the wholesale slaughter thing, but he’ll be an unseen knife in the dark more often.

When we see Iyatil try to kill Amaram later she does so quietly. The GBs aren’t likely to do such a noisy killing; they’re far more likely to send someone into the war camps to slice Amaram’s throat in the dark. They don’t want people looking too closely into their deeds; having one of their members destroy a small army is an excellent way to ensure notice. It just doesn’t make much sense for them to do so.

Also worth noting that Pattern did not recognize this statement as a lie. And that Kelsier doesn’t lie directly to his team. He lies by omission, but rarely directly. And Mraize doesn’t lie to Shallan directly either.

I agree that Helaran was likely not a Skybreaker.  But I don’t think Mraize was lying; I think he was mistaken.

[POTUS24]

I really have a hard time believing that helaran was a GB him being a skybreaker makes way more sense in my mind. We're pretty confident that his father Lin was a GB and helaran hated him for it and what it was doing to their whole family. So he went to the skybreakers to seek justice for his mother, which at the time everyone thought had been killed by Lin. I think that the skybreakers definitely have shards laying around for the purpose of bringing in potential squires. I feel like highspren likely hate them as much as the other types of sentient spren so who knows. 

The skybreakers I do think had a beef with the SoH. In RoW it venli learns about it. And since by the time helaran came for amaram, gavilar was dead so it stands to reason that they would still be trying to knock him off since he was higher up and knew more about gavilar's plans. 

But to the original question I think it has to deal with Ba-Ado-Mishram. Brandon has basically said they are going through something similar to the shaod. And when they talk about BAM's imprisonment they say it effected all of Roshar. I've also seen a theory floating around that they didn't create deadeyes because the bond smith would facilitate the severing. I doubt that since there where times with no bond smiths and I don't think honor would have allowed them that kind of power. 

 

[Bigmikey357]

So Nale and Kalak, obviously seen working together during Gavilar's assassination feast, are doing organizational infighting? Not buying it. Daddy Davar had ties with the GB, but I think it was more them using his ties to Veden aristocracy in exchange for money rather than outright membership.  What missions would anyone entrust him to perform, a man with such self control issues? 

Here's how I see it breaking down. Both Skybreakers and GB had eyes on the Davar household for a long time. SB was watching for potential Radiance,  GB was looking for that dark, not completely natural influence that Hoid mentioned in WoR. SB agent gets killed before reporting,  GB agent gets to report, adding the tidbit of potential Radiance.  GB false flags to recruit Helaran,  gives him some Shards, and sends him out on missions. GB find out quickly that while Helaran is useful he's no Radiant so they continue to watch Davar House. Maybe they engineer some deals that go bad for Davar,  make the old man desperate.  Then they make an offer he can't refuse. And because Helaran doesn't know who he's really working for the GB can disavow him at any time should he fail. And so they can keep a useful agent and allying house they find a way to keep the SB off the trail,  divert them from prying. That scenario makes more sense to me than SB giving some untrained jamoke with no spark of Radiance a dead blade and have him wreak havoc across the countryside without supervision. 

As for the OP, while I do believe dissolution of the bond requires a sign-off by both sides I can't believe any spren would choose the way they did after the Recreance if they knew they'd become zombies.  Maya said that they expected pain, not death. As for Shallan and Testament,  she broke that bond intentionally and walled up her own memories of the event, but there must have been a part of her that wished to retain the connection,  enough that she still could command a trickle of power.

[platnumkid]

TLDR: Honour's death/splintering means a spren will become a Deadeye if a broken oath ends their nahel bond

I'm firmly convinced Brandon was referring to Seons during the live stream.  Specifically the Seons bonded to humans taken by the Shaod post Reod prior to the restoration of Elantris.

What we know:

• Seons are spiritually bonded to their humans similar to the nahel bond of radiant spren.
• These Seons appear to have lost their sense of self, identity an ability to communicate, just like Deadeye spren
• A singular event (the Shaod) marks a transformation in an Elantrian's connection to the Dor (their source of magic), Sub Recreance, Radiants, Surgebinding
• On close inspection the Aon at the center of the these Zombie Seons displays similar characteristics to fallen Elantrians
• Honour wasn't around to council the Radiants at the time of the Recreance (Stormfather tells Dalinar in OB)
• The Recreance occured shortly after the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram
• There were no Deadeyes prior to the Recreance (WOB and WOB)

What I think we can reasonably conclude:

•  When Radiants brake their bond to a spren their spirit web undergoes a transformation on the same scale/similar to the Shaod (maybe in reverse? losing connection to Honour/Cultivation's power instead of gaining access to the Dor)
• Prior to the Recreance when a Radiant broke their bond, the Spren wasn't killed, they just returned to the Cognitive realm, similar to if the Knight had died
• When the Knights and their Spren decided on the Recreance as the only way forward, they couldn't have predicted the creation of Deadeyes
• As with the Reod for the Shaod, another singular event distorted or corrupted the transition process by which a radiant spren transitioned back to the cognitive after intentionally braking their nahel bond

Outstanding Questions and my theories:

1. Q - What was the Rosharan Reod that means that an intentional breaking of a nahel bond will create a deadeye?
   A - While the WOB's very strongly point to the Recreance being the exact time that deadeyes first occurred and where even possible, I think this is deliberate misdirection from Brandon.  While it is unclear when exactly Honour was splinted I think it was before the capture of BAM.  The capture of BAM is closely tied to the final decision by 9 orders to undertake the Recreance.  When the Reod fundamentally changed the geography of Arelon, Elantrian's connection to the Dor was disrupted.  Perhaps prior to being unmade BAM was the spren of Roshar itself, but even if that were true, why would she still easy the transition of radiant spren back to the cognitive after being unmade?  It must have been that Honour was actively (or directly powering some process) doing something to facilitate the breaking of nahel bonds.  With Honour dead the nahel bond isn't broken cleanly and the transition of spren back to the cognitive no longer goes smoothly and gets stuck as deadeyes.
2. Q - Did the Radiants in the Recreance suffer ill effects like their spren did?  It needn't have been immediate, but as Elantrians not just their Seons had the Shaod disrupted by the Reod, perhaps the Radiants had issues like their deadeyes?
   A - While I like this idea, and think it should have been likely considering the Elantrian blueprint.  Also given that long living and  memoried Spren culture know exactly what happened their Recreance casualties, it makes sense that humans have forgotten.  Maybe the legands of the Fallen Radiants is more than just about them stopping the fight considering the parshmen were nutralized.  Maybe the "Fallen" moniker came from the horrible side effects.  Alas, as Shallan is a living example of a Radiant with a deadeye, it seems like she hasn't suffered any supernatural trauma, so I guess the Radiants were fine.