Cracking Transportation[Discuss]

[Karger]

This surge remains the one I think we actually know the least about.  We have yet to see a normal radiant discuss using it.  However we have seen it operate and I want to go over a couple theories I have managed to pull from observation.  I look forward to seeing your own observations and to hopefully settling some of the debate @Pathfinder and I have been having about our elsecaller windrunner match ups. 

Firstly let us look at Lezian.  Lezian turned out to be a particularly irritating opponent because of his mobility.  Taking him down and keeping him there is difficult as he can always go back to his hiding place and recharge.  What interests me the most however is his "spren form."  While in this form Lezian is immune to conventional damage.  Thankfully he also cannot injure anyone.  He seems to be able to remain in this form indefinitely as evidenced by the fact that he searches the tower in this form for Kaladin.  However if he wishes to take a solid form he can only do so four times before recharging(he usually only uses three because he uses the fourth to go home and get more voidlight).  The relmatics of what is happening are fascinating.  On the physical level Lezian does not really seem to exist.  In the cognitive he seems to be able to go where he wants.  However if I am right the surge is really operating on the spiritual level. 

Here is what I think is going on.  The spiritual realm contains your life story.  Looking at it you can tell someone's ancestry, upbringing, emotional tendencies, magical aptitude, skill proficiencies, species, health and everything else.  Think of it like the scorecard for a person or their character sheet.  It says who they are and how they are.  This should include your physical location.  Your position is logged just like everything else you do.  When using the surge of transportation Lezian seems to make this moot.  Basically he is using investiture to artificially blank this field.  As far as the universe is concerned his body is nowhere in particular.  His mind is a different story.

In Oathbringer Captain Notum tells Shallan this about an object's mind.

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“You can carry them anywhere in Shadesmar you wish,” the captain said. “Their tie is through the Spiritual Realm, and distance doesn’t matter. However, drop them—let them free—and they’ll work their way back to the general location of their physical counterpart

It seems that very little effort is required to move the mind through shadesmar.  I wonder if I was thinking very very hard about a particular place to the exclusion of my surroundings if the flame that represents my mind would work in that direction.  It seems that is basically what is happening to Lezian's sprenform.  He can think himself in any given direction to move his mind.  This is how he is able to move without a physical body.  Once he is where he wants his body to be he can "heal" to the location using investiture to match his body to his mind.  Once done he can be in a new place, position, or even have a different trajectory.

I imagine this will be somewhat different for a conventional Willshaper.  They will probably be able to take other objects or even people with them when they use the surge.  I am also guessing there is a high cost to being in sprenform and maybe that they have to leave their bodies vulnerable while in it.  Notably the distance gone using this method will probably not be the primary drain.  Going 10 miles might be the same as going 500 for the transition itself(I could see this going either way) but I don't think a normal radiant can stay in sprenform forever.  The much greater difficulty is the amount of time this form of travel takes.  If you want to go somewhere the mind at least has to transverse the distance before the body can.  Unless you are using some very big landmarks it could take hours to find a particular location.  You might miss an entire city unless you know where you are going.

Elsecaller capabilities.  It has always confused me why Elsecallers would be so capable at visiting shadesmar.  According to this WoB

Spoiler

Rachael

When she [Shallan] Soulcasts, does she physically go?  Or does she just think?

Brandon Sanderson

She transitions into the Cognitive Realm… Yeah she transitions but she’s not a hundred percent there…

Rachael

Then does Jasnah’s… does she work the same way?

Brandon Sanderson

She goes completely over.  That’s one of the differences between their magics. Shallan could get there if she wanted to, she hasn’t so far completely transitioned.

Argent

Even during regular Soulcasting, for both of them?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh for regular Soulcasting Jasnah doesn’t either.

Argent

‘Cause we were talking about the scene with the ship and Shallan. So would an outside observer see her shift over or—

Brandon Sanderson

The outside observer would see weirdness happening for sure.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

not one but two other Randiant orders can enter the place.  The difference I think is the resonance of powers.  An Elsecaller might be able to transport their mind around shadesmar while manifested.  A really well trained one might be able to travel that realm as easily as Syl flies through the physical one.  Manifesting your body using soulcasting and then making its location indeterminate through transportation you are where you think you are.  It is no wonder Elsecallers would be the masters here.

As to how this effects my debate with @Pathfinder I don't think Jasnah would be able to move around a battlefield much better then a Windrunner can.  She can't just want to be somewhere she actually has to work through the intermediary steps of getting there.  During this time the Windrunner can also move and possibly at a much lower stormlight cost.  I am not sure how much this changes the odds though.

 

 

[+Oltux72]

On 18.12.2020 at 7:04 PM, Karger said:

Firstly let us look at Lezian.  Lezian turned out to be a particularly irritating opponent because of his mobility.  Taking him down and keeping him there is difficult as he can always go back to his hiding place and recharge.  What interests me the most however is his "spren form."  While in this form Lezian is immune to conventional damage.  Thankfully he also cannot injure anyone.  He seems to be able to remain in this form indefinitely as evidenced by the fact that he searches the tower in this form for Kaladin.  However if he wishes to take a solid form he can only do so four times before recharging(he usually only uses three because he uses the fourth to go home and get more voidlight).  The relmatics of what is happening are fascinating.  On the physical level Lezian does not really seem to exist.  In the cognitive he seems to be able to go where he wants.  However if I am right the surge is really operating on the spiritual level. 

What is the evidence that this is his Surge operating at all?

• in the scene with The Nine we learn that all Fused can voluntarily discorporate. We have no idea what they leave behind
• we already saw Fused in spren form in Oathbringer as they were waiting to animate Thunderclats
• they did move from Braize to Roshar in the olden days somehow
• they do stuff on Braize. That must involve moving around.

 

[Karger]

43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

in the scene with The Nine we learn that all Fused can voluntarily discorporate. We have no idea what they leave behind

Bodies.

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Though… if they really did want to leave their imprisonment, they could simply have themselves killed. A Fused could also will their spirit from their body, freeing it to seek another host

43 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

we already saw Fused in spren form in Oathbringer as they were waiting to animate Thunderclats

Those were definitely not fused.

44 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

they do stuff on Braize. That must involve moving around.

They don't have bodies on Braize.

44 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

they did move from Braize to Roshar in the olden days somehow

And?  They all did that.  Each brand only gets one surge and one of them does get the surge of transportation.

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Bodies.

Yes, but in which state?

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Those were definitely not fused.

Venli had another view:

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Venli got to watch the thunderclasts awaken.

Among the waiting spirits were two larger masses of energy - souls so warped, so mangled, they didn't seem singer at all. One crawled into the stone ground, somehow inhabitating it like a spren taking residence in a gemheart.

That also explains why Odium did not just get rid of the insane Fused. They made his thunderclasts.

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

They don't have bodies on Braize.

Yes. And that is the point. Thet were there and moved around in Spren form

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

And?  They all did that.  Each brand only gets one surge and one of them does get the surge of transportation.

That is the point. You are trying to explain an ability all of them have with a specific surge.

[Karger]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. And that is the point. Thet were there and moved around in Spren form

OK?

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is the point. You are trying to explain an ability all of them have with a specific surge.

All of them have a cognitive aspect.  When they don't have a body they can move around as a spren.  Assuming I am correct then they do have a body while using the surge of transportation it just does not have a location.

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That also explains why Odium did not just get rid of the insane Fused. They made his thunderclasts.

Thunderclasts are not completely insane though.  Odium is able to give one orders it understands.  Also Venli differentiates between it and the normal fused.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Karger