starman2995

BAM deadeye link theory

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During the live signing spoiler stream, Brandon answered a question about deadeyes not forming until after the Recreance. I have a suspicion that, given the timeline and other information, the binding of B.A.M. might have had an influence over the creation of deadeyes. The chapter 94 epigraph, written by Kalak, says "I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren". The chapter 97 epigraph (also by Kalak) says "please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren. For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized". Given that we also know that B.A.M.'s binding happened near the time of the Recreance, it seems like this is more than just coincidence.

Edit: Another piece of evidence for this can be found when you compare the symptoms/mannerisms of parshmen and deadeyes. If they were both caused by BAM's capture, then it makes sense for them to act the same way (docile, able to follow simple commands, lacking agency or ability to talk).

Edit^2: There is more confirmation on this from RoW. Chapter 115 says "Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago -and the imprisoning of a specific spren". This confirms that the parshmen, deadeyes, and BAM are all related (and hints and some interesting motives for the Ghostbloods).

Edited by starman2995
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More support for my theory that the cause of the Deadeye phenomenon was analogous to the fall of Elantris.

On the other hand... "the Heralds are insane.  Never trust anything any Herald says."

Edited by Mason Wheeler
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2 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

More support for my theory that the cause of the Deadeye phenomenon was analogous to the fall of Elantris.

On the other hand... "the Heralds are insane.  Never trust anything any Herald says."

Their insane, but they are knowledgeable about a lot of things. It's more their motives or methods that end up being insane and not the stuff they say about the Cosmere, like that Jerizen went to the beyond is pr

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8 minutes ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Yeah Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment must have caused an effect similar to the Reod. The Reod caused Elantrians to lose access to Investiture after transforming. So I'm thinking the same thing happened when BAM was imprisoned. Now spren that have their bonds broken somehow lose access to Investiture and since they are literally pieces of Investiture they become deadeyes. Maya might be starting to come back a little because her Connection to Adolin is giving back some of that access to Investiture. Kind of like drawing the chasm line restored the Aon Rao, establishing some semblance of a bond starts to restore deadeyes.

Kind of a half baked theory on my part but it makes sense. Only thing I don't understand is why a spren of Odium would have such a large Connection to all spren on Roshar, but I suppose Odium's Connection to Roshar may have become as strong as Honor's and Cultivation's after living there long enough.

So why are all the deadeyes congregating near Lasting Integrity? I'm guessing the trial has nothing to do with it. I think they can sense Maya's access to Investiture coming back and they're drawn to it. If BAM is released all of the deadeyes will be fully restored. Perhaps we will see the end of Shardblades that can be used by anyone on Roshar?

Reposting what I said in the other live stream thread.

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35 minutes ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Reposting what I said in the other live stream thread.

And I’m reposting my response:

Actually, what happened in Arelon was that significant change to the environment altered the way Investiture worked enough to interfere with its flow. They had to add something missing (the chasm line) to allow Investiture to flow again.

Ie. Nothing was taken from the Spren - something was ADDED to the environment. Something the Spren are missing.

Or: Odium became fully Invested in Roshar, significantly changing the environment by adding a third tone. This damaged Investiture flow to the Spren because they are ‘missing’ the ‘Odium line’ in their makeup.

I think BAM’s capture had the side effect of completing a process Odium was resisting: Investing fully on Roshar. I also don’t think releasing her will do what people think.

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23 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And I’m reposting my response:

Actually, what happened in Arelon was that significant change to the environment altered the way Investiture worked enough to interfere with its flow. They had to add something missing (the chasm line) to allow Investiture to flow again.

Ie. Nothing was taken from the Spren - something was ADDED to the environment. Something the Spren are missing.

Or: Odium became fully Invested in Roshar, significantly changing the environment by adding a third tone. This damaged Investiture flow to the Spren because they are ‘missing’ the ‘Odium line’ in their makeup.

I think BAM’s capture had the side effect of completing a process Odium was resisting: Investing fully on Roshar. I also don’t think releasing her will do what people think.

Wait, Odium became a pure tone, but the Spren are still Just of Honor and Cultivation

So Saj-Anat really is just enlighting them.

Oh, my

This changes everything.

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17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Wait, Odium became a pure tone, but the Spren are still Just of Honor and Cultivation

So Saj-Anat really is just enlighting them.

Oh, my

This changes everything.

This is my theory, yes. I think Enlightened Spren are the future of Roshar.
 

And I think BAM will do something similar to Sja-Anat by Connecting to the deadeyes. Except that BAM’s version will actually be Corruption, as Odium will use the damage to take control of the Deadeyes.

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On 12/17/2020 at 11:18 PM, starman2995 said:

During the live signing spoiler stream, Brandon answered a question about deadeyes not forming until after the Recreance. I have a suspicion that, given the timeline and other information, the binding of B.A.M. might have had an influence over the creation of deadeyes. The chapter 94 epigraph, written by Kalak, says "I was there when Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. I know the truth of the Radiants, the Recreance, and the Nahel spren". The chapter 97 epigraph (also by Kalak) says "please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren. For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized". Given that we also know that B.A.M.'s binding happened near the time of the Recreance, it seems like this is more than just coincidence.

Edit: Another piece of evidence for this can be found when you compare the symptoms/mannerisms of parshmen and deadeyes. If they were both caused by BAM's capture, then it makes sense for them to act the same way (docile, able to follow simple commands, lacking agency or ability to talk).

Edit^2: There is more confirmation on this from RoW. Chapter 115 says "Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago -and the imprisoning of a specific spren". This confirms that the parshmen, deadeyes, and BAM are all related (and hints and some interesting motives for the Ghostbloods).

I’ve been theorizing along these lines as well but can’t come up with anything specific. A couple more things that are relevant: 

- Brandon said that Deadeyes are supposed to remind us of another similar typology in the Cosmere. The best I can come up with are Kandra=>Mistwraiths. So whatever it was that happened, it was the equivalent of pulling out the spikes for the Parsh, and then probably only leaving Spren with 1 spike, namely their bond.

- Another Cosmere parallel is Sel, where the power of Dominion and Devotion was tied to the land since each had been killed. Well, Honor was dying at the time, and it could be that the power underlying the surges was becoming more strongly tied to the land of Roshar than to him. As a result, taking such strong action on BAM who is apparently in some way important for the land of Roshar => bad for everybody, especially Spren.

- Another angle along these lines with Sel is that Elantrians are stuck in stasis - which brings to mind how deadeyes are in stasis in the Physical Realm, in the shape of the weapon they had last formed. In fact, it could be the parallel we’re supposed to be drawing isn’t Mistaraiths, but Seons in Elantris/human Elantrians.

Edited by coolsnow7
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On 2020-12-18 at 8:20 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And I’m reposting my response:

Actually, what happened in Arelon was that significant change to the environment altered the way Investiture worked enough to interfere with its flow. They had to add something missing (the chasm line) to allow Investiture to flow again.

Ie. Nothing was taken from the Spren - something was ADDED to the environment. Something the Spren are missing.

Or: Odium became fully Invested in Roshar, significantly changing the environment by adding a third tone. This damaged Investiture flow to the Spren because they are ‘missing’ the ‘Odium line’ in their makeup.

I think BAM’s capture had the side effect of completing a process Odium was resisting: Investing fully on Roshar. I also don’t think releasing her will do what people think.

 

On 2020-12-19 at 7:56 AM, Frustration said:

Wait, Odium became a pure tone, but the Spren are still Just of Honor and Cultivation

So Saj-Anat really is just enlighting them.

Oh, my

This changes everything.

I had it the other way around but this theory makes total sense.

 

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On 12/17/2020 at 8:50 PM, Mason Wheeler said:

More support for my theory that the cause of the Deadeye phenomenon was analogous to the fall of Elantris.

On the other hand... "the Heralds are insane.  Never trust anything any Herald says."

Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean they aren't right.

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3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Just because you don't trust someone, doesn't mean they aren't right.

True.  If you knew they were always wrong, then you could trust them to be consistently wrong.  Untrustworthy means you should not put any credence in the idea that they're consistently ether right or wrong.

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On 12/17/2020 at 9:18 PM, starman2995 said:

There is more confirmation on this from RoW. Chapter 115 says "Some of this, Kelek said, had to do with the nature of deadeyes. Before the Recreance, they had never existed. Kelek said he thought this was why Mraize was hunting him. Something to do with the fall of the singers, and the Knights Radiant, so long ago -and the imprisoning of a specific spren". This confirms that the parshmen, deadeyes, and BAM are all related (and hints and some interesting motives for the Ghostbloods).

So we have the "We Chose!" moment, but what if the Radiants knew there was a risk to imprisoning BAM, did it anyway, which Deadeye'd their spren. They didn't kill them by breaking oaths, they deadeye'd them through the imprisoning of BAM. Sacrificed their powers and Spren to defeat an enemy, which damaged the soul of Roshar.

What are the unmade? I think we get some clues RoW, but what if BAM is like, the unmade soul of Roshar / planetspren? Planetspren has been asked about before and got RAFO'd so I'm curious if that ties in. What if the Unmade were the spren Gods of the pre-human Roshar, maybe the Singer's betrayal was offering their gods to Odium, he unmade them, in return for new forms (This was the betrayal of the spren maybe?).

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The reason that the Elantris magic is tied to the land is that after Odium killed Devotion and Domination, he pulled all of their investiture into the Cognitive realm. The reason this made a big change is that the Spiritual realm has no locations and is everywhere at the same time. The Cognitive realm has specific locations, so the investiture also has specific locations. (Did this make sense? Because the coppermind explains it better.)

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36 minutes ago, Autobrecciation said:

So we have the "We Chose!" moment, but what if the Radiants knew there was a risk to imprisoning BAM, did it anyway, which Deadeye'd their spren. They didn't kill them by breaking oaths, they deadeye'd them through the imprisoning of BAM. Sacrificed their powers and Spren to defeat an enemy, which damaged the soul of Roshar.

Better yet, what if Ishar/Nale knew but didn't tell anyone. Nale's mission from Ishar was to prevent the Radiant orders from returning by killing any people in the process of forming a Nahel Bond. The supposed reason being that if they reformed the orders, another Desolation would come. But, we never got the basis for that reasoning if there ever was any. Either way, they arrived at the conclusion that the Radiant orders should not be allowed to re-form. What if they initially decided the orders needed to end as well? The Recreance was extremely effective at not only convincing mankind that Radiants and their powers could not be trusted, but also convincing spren that mankind cannot be trusted and that they could end up dead if they tried to form Nahel Bonds. 

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11 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

In fact, it could be the parallel we’re supposed to be drawing isn’t Mistaraiths, but Seons in Elantris/human Elantrians.

Ooh I like that theory. When the Reod happened, any Seon that was Connected to an Elantrian became something very similar to a deadeye. My question is why did BAM's imprisonment cause something similar to the Reod among surgebinders? Did the humans experience any effects or just the spren?

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I love this thread. There's so much we don't know about dead-eyes and even more we don't know about BAM, and I cannot wait for book 5. And if we don't find out in book 5, I'm gonna hunt Brandon down!

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On 12/21/2020 at 1:09 AM, coolsnow7 said:

I’ve been theorizing along these lines as well but can’t come up with anything specific. A couple more things that are relevant: 

- Brandon said that Deadeyes are supposed to remind us of another similar typology in the Cosmere. The best I can come up with are Kandra=>Mistwraiths. So whatever it was that happened, it was the equivalent of pulling out the spikes for the Parsh, and then probably only leaving Soren with 1 spike, namely their bond.

- Another Cosmere parallel is Sel, where the power of Dominion and Devotion was tied to the land since each had been killed. Well, Honor was dying at the time, and it could be that the power underlying the surges was becoming more strongly tied to the land of Roshar than to him. As a result, taking such strong action on BAM who is apparently in some way important for the land of Roshar => bad for everybody, especially Spren.

- Another angle along these lines with Sel is that Elantrians are stuck in stasis - which brings to mind how deadeyes are in stasis in the Physical Realm, in the shape of the weapon they had last formed. In fact, it could be the parallel we’re supposed to be drawing isn’t Mistaraiths, but Seons in Elantris/human Elantrians.

I really like your line of thinking for this. I hadn't considered the mistwraiths parallel, but I can definitely see it now. As I see it, there are 3 possible links that Brandon could mean for the hint about something similar to the Recreance and what happened to deadeyes:

1st, the conclusion most people drew, is the Reod. While it could be either related to the Elantrians themselves or the Seons they are "bonded" to, it does seem like a very plausible connection. The way both the Elantrians lose their powers and Seons lose their abilities to think and act are very similar.

2nd, my idea was that it could be referring to the parshmen themselves and their transformation after BAM's imprisonment. However, given that evidence points towards deadeyes and parshmen being created in the same event, I don't think Brandon would phrase his hint that way if he were just referring to the parshmen's transformation.

3rd, the idea you posted about the link between Kandra and Mistwraiths. I could be misremembering, but from what I remember of the hint Brandon gave, I think he said there was a similar event in the cosmere, implying that it wasn't just a group of individual cases like the Kandra were. Despite that, I think we could gain some insight from the connection here, even if they aren't the link Brandon was trying to draw.

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22 hours ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Ooh I like that theory. When the Reod happened, any Seon that was Connected to an Elantrian became something very similar to a deadeye. My question is why did BAM's imprisonment cause something similar to the Reod among surgebinders? Did the humans experience any effects or just the spren?

An Elantrian is tied to a Seon. The Seon replaced some of the Elantrians requirements for life. One of these requirements was the ability to heal. The Seon's provided ability was much better, so it's a boon. But when the Seon was put in statis, the Elantrian couldn't heal, so wounds built up until the Elantrian was mindless from the pain. This problem among other things.

Knights Radiant don't have anything replaced by the spren, only added. The spren, however, are actually using their Connections to humans to push themselves into the Physical. They've replaced a piece of themselves with something human. So it's kind of a reverse of the Elantrian issue. When the Connection changed for Seons, the Seons were instantly put in stasis. When the Connection changed for spren, they didn't notice because they had replaced that Connection with the bond. When the bond broke, there was no Connection and they were put into stasis (deadeyed). Humans weren't effected because they're the dominant in this bond (where the Seon is the dominant in the Elantrian bond). The Human didn't need the Connection that was broken. Neither do unbonded spren, as they haven't replaced a more natural Connection with the Nahel Bond Connection.

 

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4 hours ago, Leuthie said:

An Elantrian is tied to a Seon. The Seon replaced some of the Elantrians requirements for life. One of these requirements was the ability to heal. The Seon's provided ability was much better, so it's a boon. But when the Seon was put in statis, the Elantrian couldn't heal, so wounds built up until the Elantrian was mindless from the pain. This problem among other things.

Knights Radiant don't have anything replaced by the spren, only added. The spren, however, are actually using their Connections to humans to push themselves into the Physical. They've replaced a piece of themselves with something human. So it's kind of a reverse of the Elantrian issue. When the Connection changed for Seons, the Seons were instantly put in stasis. When the Connection changed for spren, they didn't notice because they had replaced that Connection with the bond. When the bond broke, there was no Connection and they were put into stasis (deadeyed). Humans weren't effected because they're the dominant in this bond (where the Seon is the dominant in the Elantrian bond). The Human didn't need the Connection that was broken. Neither do unbonded spren, as they haven't replaced a more natural Connection with the Nahel Bond Connection.

 

I could just be misunderstanding your message, but I don't think what you are saying is correct. Elantrians aren't inherently tied to a Seon: not all Elantrians have Seons, and a lot of non-Elantrians have them. I also don't have any idea what Seon healing ability you are talking about; I've never heard of/seen anything like that. I think you are mistaking a Seon with a connection to the Dor, which is what given Elantrians the ability to heal and use magic, which is unrelated to having a Seon. 

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On 12/21/2020 at 1:55 PM, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Ooh I like that theory. When the Reod happened, any Seon that was Connected to an Elantrian became something very similar to a deadeye. My question is why did BAM's imprisonment cause something similar to the Reod among surgebinders? Did the humans experience any effects or just the spren?

So we know in the False Desolation BAM bound herself to the singers to give them forms of power right? And that is why they were able to remove BAM and turn the singers in to parshmen. We also know that bondsmiths can change the connection of beings by what  Ishar did in the fight with the Windrunners. What if they didn't just bind BAM to a prison, but moved their connection from singers to Radiants, and then bound it in a gem so it couldn't do anthing to reconnect.  And that connection to a bound BAM is what caused this Reod like state. This could be wrong though, were there any Bondsmiths at the time of the Recreance?

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16 hours ago, starman2995 said:

I could just be misunderstanding your message, but I don't think what you are saying is correct. Elantrians aren't inherently tied to a Seon: not all Elantrians have Seons, and a lot of non-Elantrians have them. I also don't have any idea what Seon healing ability you are talking about; I've never heard of/seen anything like that. I think you are mistaking a Seon with a connection to the Dor, which is what given Elantrians the ability to heal and use magic, which is unrelated to having a Seon. 

Ooops. You're right. I applied Roshar mechanics to Sel. Elantrians don't have a middle man (middle spren?). They are the direct conduit to the Dor. Which actually makes more sense since the Elantrian is the conduit itself on Sel while the spren is the conduit on Roshar. The Elantrian was "deadeyed" on Sel while the spren were deadeyed on Roshar. The effects of losing Connection were slightly different, probably due in part to Elantrians being Physical beings and spren being Cognitive beings pulled into the Physical in part by the very Connection that was broken.

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So I've been coming up with a bit of a theory about BAM, it's not fully fleshed out yet but can't see any other threads so thought I'd leave it here. 

I believe that before being unmade BAM was the spren of Rhythms for Roshar, she was an older higher spren of Adonalsium existing before Honor & Cultivation arrived on Roshar so she wasn't of either of them but was the same level of spren that the Stormfather / Nightwatcher / Sibling became (can't remember if the Stormfather was around prior to Honor / Cultivation arriving or not)

Once the singers betrayed the radiant spren / went to Odium / Humans went to Honor (whatever that whole situation was) I feel that BAM would have voluntarily gone to Odium to be unmade and follow the singers to Odium as humans can't hear the Rhythms of Roshar she would have felt a closer association with the Singers rather than humans who can't hear the rhythms. 

My theory includes that each spren has their own specific Rhythm which is backed up by the singers being able to be assume their different forms, that changing forms includes a need for the specific spren & also the singer to hold that Rhythm when trying to assume a new form and the intent to assume a new form.

This is how she has been connected to spren & singers, so when she was imprisoned this severed the full connection between the singers and their ability to hear the rhythm's / assume different forms and in the process has severed sprens ability to reconnect to the Rhythms of Roshar which I think would have previously let them fade from the physical realm and reform in Shadesmar but as the connection that BAM has been severed all the deadeyes are stuck between fully leaving the physical realm to be able reconstitute in Shadesmar

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On 04/01/2021 at 4:26 PM, Stonerward said:

So I've been coming up with a bit of a theory about BAM, it's not fully fleshed out yet but can't see any other threads so thought I'd leave it here. 

I believe that before being unmade BAM was the spren of Rhythms for Roshar, she was an older higher spren of Adonalsium existing before Honor & Cultivation arrived on Roshar so she wasn't of either of them but was the same level of spren that the Stormfather / Nightwatcher / Sibling became (can't remember if the Stormfather was around prior to Honor / Cultivation arriving or not)

Once the singers betrayed the radiant spren / went to Odium / Humans went to Honor (whatever that whole situation was) I feel that BAM would have voluntarily gone to Odium to be unmade and follow the singers to Odium as humans can't hear the Rhythms of Roshar she would have felt a closer association with the Singers rather than humans who can't hear the rhythms. 

My theory includes that each spren has their own specific Rhythm which is backed up by the singers being able to be assume their different forms, that changing forms includes a need for the specific spren & also the singer to hold that Rhythm when trying to assume a new form and the intent to assume a new form.

This is how she has been connected to spren & singers, so when she was imprisoned this severed the full connection between the singers and their ability to hear the rhythm's / assume different forms and in the process has severed sprens ability to reconnect to the Rhythms of Roshar which I think would have previously let them fade from the physical realm and reform in Shadesmar but as the connection that BAM has been severed all the deadeyes are stuck between fully leaving the physical realm to be able reconstitute in Shadesmar

I was also pondering whether BAM was a spren (or something similar) predating honor and cultivation, which would probably have to mean they were a spren of Adonalsium, that was subsequently unmade by Odium. It would make more sense as to why shutting them away had such an impact on everything, as it had always been a part of Roshar

I had also been wondering about something else. We know BAM can create void light, if they did predate Odium, and were of Adonalsium, could they, potentially at least, create lights of other shards as well? Is that why the Ghostbloods are so interested in it?

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