Renarin

[likehephaestion]

18 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I will hunt you down to the ends of the earth and debate you on this even after I die. Elend (Yes, that's how you spell it, my friend.) absolutely has character and has to struggle massively with his won concept of honor and integrity while trying to rule a city that doesn't want /and/or not ready for him. Money was literally never an important part of his character. If you still disagree, I will make another thread to debate you on this, Elend is great. (I am now tempted to look up his description and see where he falls on my scale of attractiveness. (Saw some fan art. He's meh. Still prefer the Lord Ruler and Susebron))  

I would suggest not telling strangers on the internet you're going to "hunt them down to the ends of the earth" 

but uhh don't bother I'm not that pressed about it. I was just suggesting that there very much are people who will go though and scrutinize overly priviledged characters the way people do with margonizlied characters. 

[Aspiring Writer]

7 minutes ago, likehephaestion said:

I would suggest not telling strangers on the internet you're going to "hunt them down to the ends of the earth" 

but uhh don't bother I'm not that pressed about it. I was just suggesting that there very much are people who will go though and scrutinize overly priviledged characters the way people do with margonizlied characters. 

I think anyone who is used to the internet will know the person making those threats are too lazy to leave their room and not to take them too seriously. Which, if you need clarification, is what I was doing; just joking. I already have a list of people I intend to hunt down for various reasons. 

I think you forgot to type the word 'aren't', otherwise your statement agrees with mine. 

But, yeah, please re-read Well of Ascension (This should not be a big request, the book is great, as I'm sure you know. I'm sure you would re-read it again at some point.), Elend is more than cis-white boy. He has to grow through a lot of growth and challenges on his path to become king. I'm not even that big a fan of Elend, but I recognize the writing of his character is solid.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[likehephaestion]

16 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I think you forgot to type the word 'aren't', otherwise your statement agrees with mine. 

No, I meant are, there ARE people who will scrutinize overly privileged characters. I am one of those people and I just happened to use Elend as an example, I could have used Elhokar, but I thought Elend was a better example. 

Please do stop trying to correct me though it's annoying and a little rude. If you can understand what I mean it's not a big deal. 

[Aspiring Writer]

5 minutes ago, likehephaestion said:

No, I meant are, there ARE people who will scrutinize overly privileged characters. I am one of those people and I just happened to use Elend as an example, I could have used Elhokar, but I thought Elend was a better example. 

Please do stop trying to correct me though it's annoying and a little rude. If you can understand what I mean it's not a big deal. 

Correcting people is... rude. You realize someone questioning you is probably because you were not clear, because yes, Elhakor would have been an infinitely better choice than storming Elend Venture, and even that is a poor choice because Elhakor has other traits like trying to live up to his father, be a better ruler, terrified of being assassinated along with him being spoiled. No, I did not understand what you meant, which is why I'm correcting you, and the fact you consider that rude is bewildering on several levels.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[likehephaestion]

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Correcting people is... rude. You realize someone questioning you is probably because you were not clear, because yes, Elhakor would have been an infinitely better choice than storming Elend Venture, and even that is a poor choice because Elhakor has other traits like trying to live up to his father, be a better ruler, terrified of being assassinated along with him being spoiled. No, I did not understand what you meant, which is why I'm correcting you, and the fact you consider that rude is bewildering on several levels.

Mostly I was talking about the way you corrected me when I misspelt Eland's name. but also the way you said "I must have forgot" no I did not ask next time. 

I stand by Eland was boring and it's because he was privileged, Elhohkor also boring because of his privilege. I am however done with this conversation. 

[GameOfGroans]

1 hour ago, likehephaestion said:

no one ever wants to talk about how cishet couples feel forced bc, I don't know, that's the way it's supposed to be or something idk. 

If you really want to understand this part, you need to keep in mind that nature made humans to survive, not thrive. Most of the human history, we were at the edge of extinction. Ever wonder why humans are so sexual all the year, compared to most animals who are only in heat once or twice a year? We had to be hyper-sexual to survive as a species.

So, survival and procreation are the two most basic urges of any animal, including people. And many people have an urge to not only procreate themselves, but to encourage others (their tribe especially) to procreate, to be stronger than other tribes. So on a purely biological level, most can feel that cishet is natural and desirable, while anything that doesn't encourage procreation, is a danger to the group survival. They might even be hormonally, on a physical level, repulsed by the latter.

I know that's primitive and unnecessary in modern life especially. I also know that queer is natural too, and might even have some evolutional purpose, such as group cohesion or taking care of orphaned young. But our intellect and our hormones are very different things, and most people are still more driven by their instincts than their intellect (if they have enough intellect at all).

I know I'm probably irritating you with this, but that's not my intention. I simply believe that if you really want to make things better, you need to understand the other side too, and explain, not blame. Because, again, people are primarily creatures of instinct, not logic.

[Comatose]

Okay, I know I've been participating in this thread personally, so I'm going to put my moderator hat on for a moment. 

[Mod hat on].

(1) Let's try to avoid getting too personal and remember we are all here because we enjoy to the books.  Try to remember that tone can be difficult in text, and avoid jokes that depend on tone to make themselves plain, or tag them explicitly.   Also, let's try to assume the best of each other.

(2) I know that this conversation has wandered a bit, and that's natural, but let's please keep this to the depiction of Renarin and Rlain in the books, both as individuals and as a couple.  The recent back and forth about representation dynamics in literature, I think, is an acceptable digression, but let's keep the focus in mind.  Let's leave discussions about human sexuality generally out of it - people's sexual orientations and gender identities are NOT  a matter for debate, so let's not treat them like one.  Also keep in mind that while the topic might be purely academic for some, it is intensely personal for others.  

(3)  If a conversation is making you uncomfortable or you are getting upset please either report it or take a break and see if you feel the same way when you come back and reread (or both).  

Thanks all!

[Mod hat off].  

[GroundPetrel]

*mutters angrily about how Ehlokar is straight-up explicitly shown to be a good dude who cares in his own way about darkeyes' problems at several points as early as TWOK, he's just severely maladjusted from his abusive father and his own knowledge that he's completely unready for leadership*

WRT. the actual topic of this thread, I'm honestly just chuckling to myself at the thought of Dalinar finding out and then being performatively Very Tolerant to hide his deep-seated fears of his special-needs kid going out and dating.  (I don't think he would actually mind that Rlain's a singer at the end of the day, I think his problem would more be being overprotective of Renatin, seeing as how the next big obstacle he has to overcome appears to be dealing with his sons in a manner that's healthier for their growth as people)

Meanwhile Navani will probably be like "Welcome to the family!  I'm going to mom the rust out of you, and if you argue then I will mom you more!"  

[Proletariat]

5 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

If you really want to understand this part, you need to keep in mind that nature made humans to survive, not thrive. Most of the human history, we were at the edge of extinction. Ever wonder why humans are so sexual all the year, compared to most animals who are only in heat once or twice a year? We had to be hyper-sexual to survive as a species.

So, survival and procreation are the two most basic urges of any animal, including people. And many people have an urge to not only procreate themselves, but to encourage others (their tribe especially) to procreate, to be stronger than other tribes. So on a purely biological level, most can feel that cishet is natural and desirable, while anything that doesn't encourage procreation, is a danger to the group survival. They might even be hormonally, on a physical level, repulsed by the latter.

I know that's primitive and unnecessary in modern life especially. I also know that queer is natural too, and might even have some evolutional purpose, such as group cohesion or taking care of orphaned young. But our intellect and our hormones are very different things, and most people are still more driven by their instincts than their intellect (if they have enough intellect at all).

I know I'm probably irritating you with this, but that's not my intention. I simply believe that if you really want to make things better, you need to understand the other side too, and explain, not blame. Because, again, people are primarily creatures of instinct, not logic.

This doesn't actually fit with what we know about history.

Homophobia and transphobia do not have any observable biological basis, and are entirely social. Heterosexuality in its current form was only developed as an idea in the 1800s following industrialisation, and the development of homosexuality as an idea followed on as did the nuclear family. We have a lot of examples of non-class societies where being what we would call trans actually entailed higher social status, and the general historical point now is that concepts like the gender binary and being cishet came to Australia and America via colonisation. 

As far as the question about us being opportunistic breeders, rather than seasonal breeders, and therefore predisposed to homophobia. The point of opportunistic breeding is also to be able to not reproduce, because manic reproduction during periods of resource scarcity would just be lethal. I'm not really sure what the link is here.

[Zea mays]

I must be very stupid and weird. My takeaway from hearing “ Renarin most likely has a crush on Rlain” is to wonder how come he doesn’t instead crush on Kaladin. The dude is epic and gorgeous and has charisma oozing from every pore, not to mention his mad habit of rescuing Ren’s closest family members from desperate dangers.
Come on, ye who delight in all speculative shipping ( I know you’re out there, I can hear you typing), explain this one to my dense, Stormblessed-loving self.

Also... Rlain is currently in Warfom. He’s not male he’s malen. As in his current sexuality is “Not right now, please. Ask me again after the next highstorm”. Alone amongst humans, I can see many reasons why he would be hesitant to change into the much more emotionally and physically vulnerable mateform. Not to mention the whole war thing that is still going on (for 10 days, at least). Mebbe being a radiant makes a difference? 
How does parsh romance work anyway? So many questions the last book didn’t answer about that.

[Elegy]

11 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

I must be very stupid and weird. My takeaway from hearing “ Renarin most likely has a crush on Rlain” is to wonder how come he doesn’t instead crush on Kaladin. The dude is epic and gorgeous and has charisma oozing from every pore, not to mention his mad habit of rescuing Ren’s closest family members from desperate dangers.

I know this isn't entirely serious, please don't read this as someone being outraged  But you could say this about every female heterosexual person in the books as well. Still Shallan (well, bisexual but you know what I mean) went for Adolin over Kaladin, Navani has Dalinar, Jasnah has Wit of all people. You can take basically every couple in the books and wonder the same thing.

[Zea mays]

Yeah. I totally agree. Navani and Kaladin would have worked. Come on. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Zea mays

[GroundPetrel]

8 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

Homophobia and transphobia do not have any observable biological basis, and are entirely social. Heterosexuality in its current form was only developed as an idea in the 1800s following industrialisation, and the development of homosexuality as an idea followed on as did the nuclear family. We have a lot of examples of non-class societies where being what we would call trans actually entailed higher social status, and the general historical point now is that concepts like the gender binary and being cishet came to Australia and America via colonisation. 

Not necessarily, it seems to be more that some indigenous cultures had their own classification systems for trans people.  They still mostly have binary or binary-plus gender constructs.  Lakota, for example, has strongly gendered enclitics to the point that a Lakota rights activist noticed that the actors in Dances with Wolves (which had Lakota language advisors so they were actually pretty accurate with the language) had men using women's enclitics.  Also, Native societies could be pretty homophobic.  At least one Nahua tlatoani instituted capital punishment for homosexuality (I don't remember which one but he was from the 15th century IIRC) and still had a stable reign.  The Tawantinsuyu Sapa Inca Topa Inca Yupanqui allegedly persecuted homosexuals as well; later Sapa Incas are recorded as having done the same).  Female homosexuality was also frowned upon in early Joseon Korea, too; a queen got sent into internal exile and shamed for sleeping with her maid.  

Though, fun historical LGBT facts (spoilered for space): 

Spoiler

1. In ancient Egypt, sexuality was defined by who was the top and who the bottom, with the former associated with masculinity and the latter with femininity.  (The Egyptians also considered skirts and makeup to be genderless)   
   Spoiler

   There's an attested myth where Set and Horus have sex with Set trying to get his, um, essence into Horus, but Horus "catches" it and then later tricks Set into eating food smeared with his own, um, essence, which Horus then uses to humiliate Set by showing his "femininity" to the other deities.  

   (spoilered bit arguably mildly NSFW though I used euphemisms)

2. The Assyrian King of the Universe (how's that for a title?!) Ashurnasirpal II had his Gilgamesh/Enkidu slash fic written down on a stele for eternity, explicitly stating that the love between Gilgamesh and Enkidu was greater than that between either and the literal goddess of love and sex.  The earlier Middle Assyrian kings also made (incestuous) homosexual rape a capital offense (along with other forms of incestuous rape) but seem to have criminalized both homosexuality and falsely accusing others of homosexuality (since this is taken from 3-4000 year old steles a lot of the nuance and cultural context is uncertain, this could refer to accusations of being a male homosexual prostitute, which was frowned upon in a lot of ancient cultures).  
3. In classical Greece, male homosexuality was widely accepted in certain forms in Athens, though like everything else about Athens the Athenians had to make it creepy by adding institutionalized support for squicky age differences.  The poet Sappho was well-known in the antique Mediterranean for her emphasis on female homosexuality, which she never suffered opposition for.  Throughout the late classical period male homosexuality was the subject of considerable controversy in Athenian society.  Zoroastrian Iran, meanwhile, was generally opposed to homosexuality (Zoroastrianism forbids male  homosexuality, per the Avesta).  
4. In post-classical Greece, the dominant military power until the rise of Argead  Macedon was Thebes, whose military was built around the "Sacred Band", which consisted of 300 male lovers on the principle that they would fight harder if it was their partners in danger.  When they were defeated by Phillip II of Macedon, Phillip bemoaned their loss in public and they were generally held to have been well-respected and admirable figures.  Alexander the Great also took Darius III's adolescent male sex slave for himself, because Alexander the Great was just as much of an asshole as any other ancient ruler.  
5. The Roman emperor Elgabalus was probably trans, which definitely didn't help his precarious political situation any more than his apparent mental health issues did.  Roman law as early as the late Republic explicitly recognized rape of men as a capital offense (along with other forms of rape) and explicitly stated that being the victim of such did not subject men to social ostracization as male prostitutes would suffer, probably the first recognition of and legal protection of the rights of male victims of sex crimes on record.  Homosexuality among adult male Romans during the Republican period was generally considered acceptable, though taking a passive role was, like in Egypt, frowned upon.  Homoerotic poetry remained common in the Imperial period, and homosexual marriage was legal under Augustus at least, though taking a passive role was again seen as unmasculine.  The Roman emperor Trajan was also well-known to be aggressively homosexual and fond of handsome youths; Nero married at least two male partners before he got killed and villified for taxing the rich to build public works; Pompeii is full of pornographic f/f and m/m art; the later Imperial period, however, saw a shift away from acceptance of LGBT people, starting under the late Severan dynasty, though the Emperors Constantius II and Constans I were gay and tried to roll back prohibitions on homosexuality before Constans was assassinated.  By this stage, the Sassanid empire was, according to Roman sources, practically running on gay aristocrats, but thisis probably Roman propaganda.  
6. One powerful Mongol khatun may have had a lesbian relationship with a close attendant, I don't know how strong the evidence is though.  
7. In the 17th and 18th centuries, homosexuality among the aristocratic elite was widely tolerated, though there was often pressure to have heirs anyway.  French singer, actress, and duelist Julie d'Aubigny became notorious for her string of affairs with men and women, once sneaking into a convent and burning it down so she could sleep with a girlfriend who'd been sent there by her parents after they discovered said girlfriend's relationship with d'Aubigny.  D'Aubigny later became severely depressed after a woman she was in love with died of TB, and died shortly after, apparently because she was such a lesbian heartthrob she even had to die like a tragic gay mess.  
8. There is a camp that thinks that Kaiser Wilhelm II was bi and deep in the closet--I don't support this theory myself, I don't believe the evidence leans that way, but the Eulenberg Affair is so deeply tied into the intensely euphemistic  Victorian and post-Victorian aristocracy that I doubt we'll ever know the truth.  
9. Eleanor Roosevelt was bi and in a de facto open relationship with FDR (though it seems to have been pretty messy in practice).  
10. Trans male lounge singing star Billy Tipton passed as cis for so long several of his girlfriends didn't even know he was AFAB until he died.  

 

 

tl;dr LGBT history is freaking weird but also really cool, and some societies were weirdly "advanced" on some issues of gender, sexuality, and sexual rights in ways that our society still isn't today!  

4 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

I must be very stupid and weird. My takeaway from hearing “ Renarin most likely has a crush on Rlain” is to wonder how come he doesn’t instead crush on Kaladin. The dude is epic and gorgeous and has charisma oozing from every pore, not to mention his mad habit of rescuing Ren’s closest family members from desperate dangers.

I reread Words of Radiance instead of doing schoolwork in the month before ROW came out, and let me just say that Renarin's eagerness to please Kaladin can easily be read as a massive storming crush on the smoking hot smolderingly moody badass who personally saved Renarin's father and beloved brother multiple times.  (Adolin's relationship with Kaladin is much more the "What do you mean crush, I hate that guy!  I hate him so much I spend most of my free time thinking about him!" variety)

[Inavan]

I have seen the spoiler stream on youtube, but I can't find it in the book where it says that Renarin is crushing on Rlain (or on anyone else for that matter). In which passage did you guys read this? 

 

[Comatose]

1 hour ago, Zea mays said:

Also... Rlain is currently in Warfom. He’s not male he’s malen. As in his current sexuality is “Not right now, please. Ask me again after the next highstorm”. Alone amongst humans, I can see many reasons why he would be hesitant to change into the much more emotionally and physically vulnerable mateform. Not to mention the whole war thing that is still going on (for 10 days, at least). Mebbe being a radiant makes a difference? 
How does parsh romance work anyway? So many questions the last book didn’t answer about that.

I'd guess that some Singers/Listeners, depending on the individual, could still experience romantic attraction when not in mate form, even if they are asexual.  Ace Corrupted Truthwatcher Boyfriends has just as much appeal to me as Gay Corrupted Truthwatcher Boyfriends tbh (or combined - Ace and Gay identities are not mutually exclusive after all).  

@Inavan - If you scroll up (I think it was included in this thread) - there's a WoB that says Renarin has a crush.  It's not in the books (yet), though there are subtextual clues people were picking up on (reread some of their scenes together in Oathbringer, and then in RoW Renarin thinks of Rlain as the perfect candidate to join him as a corrupted truthwatcher).  

[+robardin]

3 hours ago, Zea mays said:

I must be very stupid and weird. My takeaway from hearing “ Renarin most likely has a crush on Rlain” is to wonder how come he doesn’t instead crush on Kaladin. The dude is epic and gorgeous and has charisma oozing from every pore, not to mention his mad habit of rescuing Ren’s closest family members from desperate dangers.
Come on, ye who delight in all speculative shipping ( I know you’re out there, I can hear you typing), explain this one to my dense, Stormblessed-loving self.

Also... Rlain is currently in Warfom. He’s not male he’s malen. As in his current sexuality is “Not right now, please. Ask me again after the next highstorm”. Alone amongst humans, I can see many reasons why he would be hesitant to change into the much more emotionally and physically vulnerable mateform. Not to mention the whole war thing that is still going on (for 10 days, at least). Mebbe being a radiant makes a difference? 
How does parsh romance work anyway? So many questions the last book didn’t answer about that.

Renarin can identify with Rlain in ways he cannot with Kaladin; ways that are important in terms of feeling an attraction that includes imagining a long-term relationship with that person.

 I'm sure Renarin loves and admires Kaladin, I mean who doesn't from Bridge Four (arguably even Moash still does...), but Rlain is the one who understands the feeling of being a maladjusted and misunderstood misfit, of being either completely overlooked or having assumptions placed upon them all the time, and now of course both of them having bonded "enlightened" mistspren to be some new kind of Truthwatcher.

[GroundPetrel]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Renarin can identify with Rlain in ways he cannot with Kaladin; ways that are important in terms of feeling an attraction that includes imagining a long-term relationship with that person.

 I'm sure Renarin loves and admires Kaladin, I mean who doesn't from Bridge Four (arguably even Moash still does...), but Rlain is the one who understands the feeling of being a maladjusted and misunderstood misfit, of being either completely overlooked or having assumptions placed upon them all the time, and now of course both of them having bonded "enlightened" mistspren to be some new kind of Truthwatcher.

The way I see it, Renarin has/had a massive crush on Kaladin.  Who wouldn't?  Kaladin is a tall charming moody badass with good looks and buckets of charisma, no baby gay would be able to be in his presence without swooning a bit.  Frankly I'm surprised he isn't beating the women off with a stick, too, though that could just be him not noticing/people assuming he's taken/the apocalypse in progress distracting people.  

But as you point out, you can't build a stable relationship off of a celebrity crush.  

[Aspiring Writer]

4 hours ago, Zea mays said:

I must be very stupid and weird. My takeaway from hearing “ Renarin most likely has a crush on Rlain” is to wonder how come he doesn’t instead crush on Kaladin. The dude is epic and gorgeous and has charisma oozing from every pore, not to mention his mad habit of rescuing Ren’s closest family members from desperate dangers.
Come on, ye who delight in all speculative shipping ( I know you’re out there, I can hear you typing), explain this one to my dense, Stormblessed-loving self.

Also... Rlain is currently in Warfom. He’s not male he’s malen. As in his current sexuality is “Not right now, please. Ask me again after the next highstorm”. Alone amongst humans, I can see many reasons why he would be hesitant to change into the much more emotionally and physically vulnerable mateform. Not to mention the whole war thing that is still going on (for 10 days, at least). Mebbe being a radiant makes a difference? 
How does parsh romance work anyway? So many questions the last book didn’t answer about that.

Kal might be too intimidating to Renarin. The guy is second only to Dalinar when it comes to making people terrified (And this is without mentioning the glowing eyes purser execution scene). While Renarin might get a crush on him, he would eventually decide to find someone else that he feels more comfortable around.

[likehephaestion]

6 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

*mutters angrily about how Ehlokar is straight-up explicitly shown to be a good dude who cares in his own way about darkeyes' problems at several points as early as TWOK, he's just severely maladjusted from his abusive father and his own knowledge that he's completely unready for leadership*

WRT. the actual topic of this thread, I'm honestly just chuckling to myself at the thought of Dalinar finding out and then being performatively Very Tolerant to hide his deep-seated fears of his special-needs kid going out and dating.  (I don't think he would actually mind that Rlain's a singer at the end of the day, I think his problem would more be being overprotective of Renatin, seeing as how the next big obstacle he has to overcome appears to be dealing with his sons in a manner that's healthier for their growth as people)

Meanwhile Navani will probably be like "Welcome to the family!  I'm going to mom the rust out of you, and if you argue then I will mom you more!"  

I both love and hate the idea of super protective Dalinar. Like we don't need to further the infantilization of autistic people and being worried about your very independent autistic kid dating is.....kinda yucky, he's a whole adult. HOWEVER, Dalinar being a dad and, like you said, having to overcome that yucky-ness bc your baby is a whole adult (has been probably for a lot longer than he's been an adult age wise, and it aboslutly is Dalinar's fault) would be something to see. 

I do think he might have a problem with Rlain being a singer but not because he wants to have a problem with it I just think he seems stuck between "he have to do things the right way" and "the the right way is changing and maybe never existed." (We see this already with Dalinar supporting Renarin when it comes to his academic persuits) And I (personally) think that would be a better plot line to see develop and resolve than Dalinar being over protective but uhhh Dalinar already is over protective so maybe we'll get both!! 

I think you're spot on about Navani though and I want that even more than Dalinar's reaction. Ren and Rlain deserve that sort of absolute, love and acceptance. They've both been though it when it comes to a lack of acceptance. I think Renarin getting to see Rlain being accepted would do wonders for Renarin (I have no a single clue how I think Rlain would take it though)

[just as a note I don't think you are infantilizing Renarin in anyway and particularly not by suggesting this it's just a thing that happens yknow?]

[Aspiring Writer]

2 minutes ago, likehephaestion said:

Like we don't need to further the infantilization of autistic people and being worried about your very independent autistic kid dating is.....kinda yucky, he's a whole adult. 

Um, parents can be protective of their children long after they have outgrown them. My parents are still quite concerned about my sister's dating life despite her being over 21. Some parents are like that, it doesn't need to be about them being autistic but them being their child, and we do see people being a bit more protective of Renarin, ex. Dalinar along with Shallan, Adolin, Navani, and even Jasnah. Being an adult means nothing to parents. Whether or not it's yucky is kinda besides the point, it's a common thing that people can and will relate to.

[likehephaestion]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Um, parents can be protective of their children long after they have outgrown them. My parents are still quite concerned about my sister's dating life despite her being over 21. Some parents are like that, it doesn't need to be about them being autistic but them being their child, and we do see people being a bit more protective of Renarin, ex. Dalinar along with Shallan, Adolin, Navani, and even Jasnah. Being an adult means nothing to parents. Whether or not it's yucky is kinda besides the point, it's a common thing that people can and will relate to.

My whole problem is that people are a bit more protective or Renarin despite the fact that he's perfectly capable of handling himself. It plays into the infantilization of autistic people. Some parents absolutely are very protective. Dalinar is not uniformly protective of his children. He does not have any worries about Adolin in the way he does about Renarin. And if you include his niece and nephew who he does think of as his children in some sense. He beat up his nephew and absolutely would not ever try to be protective over his niece. So Dalinar's protectiveness exists only to protect Renarin and while you could argue it's because he's the child the fact that others are uniquely protective of Renarin exists to prove my point. People are protective of Renarin because they are infantalizing someone with Autism.

I'm fine with people being protective over their children but when people are only protective over their autistic children that's a red flag for me. And like I and GroundPetrel said, there's lots of room for Dalinar to realize he doesn't need to be protective of Renarin. I think that Dalinar realizing that would help him and Renarin grow closer. This is anicdotal, but I find it harder to connect with people who infantalize me as an autistic person, people who think they have to protect me, or that I won't understand some things. When they realize that is not the case our relationship grows stronger because I'm able to tell them what I need rather than then assuming. I would love to see this happen with Renarin and Dalinar. If Dalinar were to realize "Oh my kid doesn't need or what that." and then Ren telling him what he does need and what, * chef's kiss * that would be brilliant. 

Is Sanderson writing this because he thinks autistic people should be infantalized I am almost certain that is not the case, However, the world we live in inftanlizes Autistic people in a ways I think a lots of non-autistic people don't realize and we all live in that world (as much as we might try to live in our books.) This is an example of what I'm talking about. Intentionally or not (and again I think not) Sanderson has kinda infantilized Renarin particularly in his and Dalinar's relationship BUT I think this would be a perfect way to remedy that. This is not an attack on Sanderson (whom I think is a brilliant author), or Renarin, I love Renarin before Stormlight Archive I'd never ever ever seen an autistic character in a book before, I will go to bat for Ren every day. I just also have criticism. 

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, likehephaestion said:

My whole problem is that people are a bit more protective or Renarin despite the fact that he's perfectly capable of handling himself. It plays into the infantilization of autistic people. Some parents absolutely are very protective. Dalinar is not uniformly protective of his children. He does not have any worries about Adolin in the way he does about Renarin. And if you include his niece and nephew who he does think of as his children in some sense. He beat up his nephew and absolutely would not ever try to be protective over his niece. So Dalinar's protectiveness exists only to protect Renarin and while you could argue it's because he's the child the fact that others are uniquely protective of Renarin exists to prove my point. People are protective of Renarin because they are infantalizing someone with Autism.

Well, Renarin is naive and shy. He is occasionally harassed by other women who see his fascination with studies as a weakness and Jasnah tries to make sure he doesn't end up joining the storm wardens after he showed interest in them. While one of those might have to do with him being autistic, the other one certainly isn't.

 

 

[GroundPetrel]

57 minutes ago, likehephaestion said:

I both love and hate the idea of super protective Dalinar. Like we don't need to further the infantilization of autistic people and being worried about your very independent autistic kid dating is.....kinda yucky, he's a whole adult. HOWEVER, Dalinar being a dad and, like you said, having to overcome that yucky-ness bc your baby is a whole adult (has been probably for a lot longer than he's been an adult age wise, and it aboslutly is Dalinar's fault) would be something to see. 

I see a lot of overprotectiveness to the point of being borderline stifling in Dalinar's treatment of Renarin early on.   He gets Renarin Plate, not a blade (that's what Adolin does), he prefers to keep Renarin safe at home rather than getting him experience in the field or with the ardents, he is more distant of a father to Renarin than even to Adolin.  Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think that Dalinar's relationship with Renarin is at least initially far too much of a protective one, vis as vis Adolin's more supportive one, and that plus natural dad instincts means that Dalinar is likely to be the wrong kind of caring in this case.  

(by the wrong kind of caring, I basically mean that he'll go in meaning well but will only frustrate and upset Renarin who might chafe under Dalinar's perceived smothering/chains.  That's something that happens a lot to special needs kids, especially with parents who aren't super on the ball; Dalinar's better than some, but Adolin and Renarin are definitely not as well-adjusted as they appear, and what they do have is 100% due to their mom who was very clearly the best parent in the series and possibly in all of the cosmere to date and yes I'm including Navani because she's a great mom but even she has flaws in that regard)

EDIT: I say the above as a person (haha gender is a massive pain in the butt) with several neurological disorders including ADHD, OCD, Tourette's, and possibly an ASD.  My brother and I are still repairing the shattered remains of our relationship seven years after I left for college.  He punched me in the face two years ago because I was afraid of the gender and sexuality issues I've been dealing with and snapped at him when he tried to push while we were walking home from the store, that's how tense things are between us that when he tries to help it can devolve into fistfighting.  

Edited December 21, 2020 by GroundPetrel

[AquaRegia]

I’m late to the party, but I just want to say I have really got a lot out of this topic.  I want to thank EVERYONE for sharing their perspectives on the issue of marginalized representation in fiction, and specifically about Renarin and Rlain.

As someone who’s playing this game of life at the lowest level of difficulty - white, male, cis/het - I had what I thought were some clever insights regarding representation in Stormlight… “is Sanderson just trying to check all the woke boxes?”  This discussion has helped me see that I need to examine my own biases some more.  I’m really glad I didn’t start a new topic without doing some reading first!

Again, to all of you who were brave enough to explain the details of your own struggles and worldviews, what these characters mean to you, and why their stories make sense, thank you.  Is not one of the goals of fiction to help us make sense of our own stories?

[Frustration]

On 12/21/2020 at 1:50 AM, likehephaestion said:

I stand by Eland was boring and it's because he was privileged, Elhohkor also boring because of his privilege. I am however done with this conversation. 

Is Dalinar boring?

On 12/21/2020 at 3:31 PM, likehephaestion said:

Is Sanderson writing this because he thinks autistic people should be infantalized I am almost certain that is not the case,

He probably writes Dalinar's feelings about Renarin like he feels about his own son, who is still a child.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Frustration