Karger

Renarin

107 posts in this topic

Hi! I heard we are having an Adolin trash meeting, so I had to come. 
 

but really I’m just here to say that that announcement was great and it made me very happy and it means a lot to me personally. 

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22 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I just feel like there isn’t any room for these character’s actual personalities. They’re being completely defined by the things that make them different. In my opinion it’s lessening the value of the characters. 

So, lots of people have pointed out that gay autistic people do actually exist (some of us are even trans on top of all of that. I can confirm I am incredibly boring I have no personality I am simply here for the woke points) I just have two questions for you.

First: We see that Kaladin has depression and has since he was a young boy, He's also got PTSD that obviously developed later in his life. Is there room for his "actually personality?" Even if it is a facet of his PTSD was there room for Teft to have a personality between his PTSD and addiction? What about when Renarin was Autistic and also had epilepsy did he have an "actual personality" then? 

Second: Sanderson said he already has laid the groundwork for this relationship, that he wants it to be obvious to us now that Renarin has a crush on Rlain. This means that Renarin is already queer, it's not "coming later" he already has the crush. So, when did he lose his personality? if you are so sure that a character can not be both autistic and queer with out loseing room for their actual personalities when did Renarin lose his? He's been Autistic and Queer for the last two books, at what point did those things become so cumbersome that there was no room left for him to have an "Actual personlity?"

Being autistic is part of who Renarin is, that IS part of his personality. Being shy, not being able to say the right thing, being interested in "feminine" things, those are all part of his personality, AND they are part of his autism. Similarly Rlain's personality is dependent on the things that make him an "outcast"  if he were not a listener he would not be who he is. That's the whole point, who you are and how society sees you shapes your personality, it shapes who you are. Renarin isn't just gonna stop being Renarin and start, idk, dressing in drag or whatever gay men on Roshar do. Why? Because that's not who he is, that's not part of his personality. 

At any rate I'm incredibly excited, my poor friends, most of whom have never read these books, have had to deal with me talking about this all day because I didn't think I was going to ever see an autistic queer man in something that wasn't YA. I really did not think I would get to see an autistic queer man in an adult fantasy series. But here we are. 

 

12 hours ago, Impact said:

I'll admit I didn't find Renarin as obvious, but in RoW, Rlain mentions how "mateform never went well" and that one stood out to me.  So I didn't really find this as a surprise, even if I didn't connect the dots myself.  

 

I'm not sure why they being gay is such a big deal to people?  Is it "cramming it in" that we have so many major hetero characters? BS literally crammed in the fact that Kaladin had a failed relationship into like 2 sentences and a couple throw backs, and he has depression.  Not sure why someone can be depressed and hetero but someone can't be autistic and gay...

Depressed, hetero, AND has PTSD, there's just too much going on in his character there's no room for him to have a personality now :(((( 

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I would like to add I that I find both renarin and Rlain to be awesome charecters with lots of potential for individual growth and all ,esp since they are both Knight Prescients, an entirely new order or perhaps even magic system and must swear completely novel Ideals and the Ideals demand charecter growth and development and individuality as well as shown by the different versions of the oath by the windrunners. 

I loved reading the counter arguments against how they were too boxed in. 

Noice

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6 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Which makes me really confused as to how so many people so drastically misunderstood me. This is how the thread has gone from my POV: 

Me: I’m worried Brandon might be starting to focus too much on this one aspect of this one character.
Everyone Else: So you’re a bigot then. 
:blink:

There seems to be a worrying online trend of presuming bad intentions and bad personality traits whenever somebody makes even a small mistake in expressing their thoughts about these things, or simply doesn't have enough experience to fully understand things - or even just bc of small disagreements. It doesn't help anyone, it only pushes people further apart.

Personally, until Brandon confirmed that Renarin is autistic, I was convinced he simply had social anxiety. His communication seemed totally fine when he was with his family and presumably more relaxed. In fact, I have mild social anxiety as an adult, not enough to prevent me from functioning relatively normally , but as a kid and a teenager I was maybe even more shy than Renarin.

But when I expressed something similar on another forum I was attacked left and right and made look like a villain just because I don't understand all the intricacies of autism  :unsure:

So once again, guys: what The Disporportionate is saying is not that they have a problem with multiple "queer" traits in a single character, but that Brandon, in his writing about them, might forget to focus on the more individual parts of their personalities, especially considering how little screen time they get. It is certainly in the interest of any minority to be presented as complex personalities rather than only based on their "queer" traits, no?

Edited by GameOfGroans
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10 hours ago, Comatose said:

Renarin and Rlain was one of the things I was most excited about after finishing RoW, so I am vibrating over the news.  I have to say, it feels very validating for subtext to be acknowledged as intentional and legitimate.  Often I find writers will include queer subtext without meaning to, or the worse ones include it just to string queer fans along with no intention of giving a pay off in the end - so it's just super exciting to know Brandon is foreshadowing this intentionally.  

For me the argument of a character being crammed full of two many 'isms' doesn't really carry much water (I didn't love Brandon's use of it in his annotation about Jasnah either).  Everyone is crammed full of isms.  Even the stereotypical "straight white cisgender male" is full of isms, they just happen to be ones that are associated with the hegemonic norms.  Identities are intersectional, so I have no issue with Brandon exploring intersectional identities in his books. I think representation-wise this only becomes an issue if there is only ONE minority character meant to represent as many minority groups as possible.  Here we have lots of characters with diverse race, gender, and sexuality identities, so I don't see intersectionality used in this way to be an issue.  

EDIT:  It's interesting that the reverse argument never comes up - you never see characters with multiple hegemonic norms brought up as lacking individual character.  I've never seen anyone say there's no room in Kelsier or Elend for individual characterization because of their straight white cisgender neurotypical male-ness, so I'm confused why it would be an issue for queer characters.  

Now I'm just excited for Renarin telling Adolin about his crush, because that's going to be just the most wholesome thing ever.  I don't think it'll earn screen time, but I'm also head canoning brunch between Renarin and Rlain and Drehy and Dru because imagining them taking some time to fondly kvetch about the heterosexual nonsense of the rest of Bridge Four would just be super fun and relateable.   

I am more excited to see Renarin tell his father the news. We know Adolin will be supportive and his reaction joyful; I have no idea how Dalinar will react to his son dating a parshman. maybe he'll raise an eyebrow and shrug, maybe he'll smile, maybe he be concerned about how this will be viewed and whether it will help mend relations between Singers and Humans are damage them more, and the Stormfather will definitely mention that Singers x Humans have happened in the past. (Btw, on some Venli fanart, i commented saying I needed some HumanxSinger couples, and hearing this a week or so later feels like "Your wish has been granted.")

 

8 hours ago, Ookla the Editor said:

I am here for any and all adorable 'gang-supports-Rlainarin' stuff!

:mellow: Please don't tell me that tongue twister is their official ship name. Can't it be Renlain?

 

7 hours ago, Comatose said:

That being said, personally I still have to disagree.  I don't think Rlain's arc dealing with themes of being an outcast is a detriment to his characterization, in the same way I don't think the focus on depression in Kaladin's arc is a detriment to his (obviously Kaladin gets more screentime than Rlain but I hope the example still functions).

That's exactly what I said!

Quote

Okay. I will mention many characters will have one aspect focused in a book, like say, kaladin's depression. 

 

6 hours ago, Comatose said:

Rlainarin

Oh god no, It's spreading. Can we please have a pole on their official ship name?

 

6 hours ago, Comatose said:

I'm very curious what Rlainarin's presence will be in the back 5 since things are supposed to come to light next book, and Renarin has a major role to play in the late game.  

Also two corrupted truthwatchers means twice the weird future visions.  Should be fun.  

Yeah, I'm going to love seeing more of them in the future. Wonder if their future visions will affect each other and if they can tell each other's future, and if Todium knows Rlain can see the future.

 

6 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

I am still holding on to the hope that Shallan will decide that what she really needs is a harem.  Or, well, different men for different personalities.  And then invite Kaladin into the relationship.  We already have WOB that Adolin would be chill with this, after  all.  XD

Yes. Yes, all the way. only problem is that Viel is gone so I don't think Kal is an option anymore, but BS has said Ado, Shall, and Kal would be fine in some threesome relationship. And the fact Shallan is Bi means there can be even more possibilities. Who has she shown physical appreciation for besides Jasnah?

 

6 hours ago, GroundPetrel said:

Dalinar would probably be like "Son, what in Honor's name...where is your honor?  Your sense of duty to your wife?"  etc. etc. more honor and duty than a Klingon lecturing his son on proper Klingon values.  Then Navani would elbow him aside before the shouting match gets too loud, hug Adolin, tell him she's happy for everybody involved, and then pull Dalinar into another room for a stern lecture.  

Kaladin would try to run away.  Shallan would pull him back.  It would end up as happy as you can get between two people with severe mental health issues and a Well Done, Son! Guy in the middle of the apocalypse.

I really want this now. Don't tempt me, because I doubt BS is going to do it. 

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2 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Yes. Yes, all the way. only problem is that Viel is gone so I don't think Kal is an option anymore, but BS has said Ado, Shall, and Kal would be fine in some threesome relationship. And the fact Shallan is Bi means there can be even more possibilities. Who has she shown physical appreciation for besides Jasnah?

Veil is not gone, Veil is integrated. Which means she is more a part of real Shallan now than she was before. I'm curious what happens next ...

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1 minute ago, GameOfGroans said:

Veil is not gone, Veil is integrated. Which means she is more a part of real Shallan now than she was before. I'm curious what happens next ...

Hmm. Maybe Kal is still on the table then. 

 

3 hours ago, likehephaestion said:

Being autistic is part of who Renarin is, that IS part of his personality. Being shy, not being able to say the right thing, being interested in "feminine" things, those are all part of his personality, AND they are part of his autism. Similarly Rlain's personality is dependent on the things that make him an "outcast"  if he were not a listener he would not be who he is. That's the whole point, who you are and how society sees you shapes your personality, it shapes who you are. Renarin isn't just gonna stop being Renarin and start, idk, dressing in drag or whatever gay men on Roshar do. Why? Because that's not who he is, that's not part of his personality. 

Could not have said it better myself. The qualities that separate them from the social norms on Roshar are what make them special, and those struggles they have, like Rlain being hated by both humans and singers is very much who he is, as he made those choices that led him to being an outcast on both sides, and that's what we want to see him overcome, gaining the respect of both Humans and Singers, to the point that he can date a human and people won't even bat an eye. Saying those personality traits keep him from having character is missing the point that those are his character traits, his struggles.

 

1 hour ago, GameOfGroans said:

Personally, until Brandon confirmed that Renarin is autistic, I was convinced he simply had social anxiety. His communication seemed totally fine when he was with his family and presumably more relaxed. In fact, I have mild social anxiety as an adult, not enough to prevent me from functioning relatively normally , but as a kid and a teenager I was maybe even more shy than Renarin.

But when I expressed something similar on another forum I was attacked left and right and made look like a villain just because I don't understand all the intricacies of autism  :unsure:

I can relate that every time BS confirms a character is autistic, I just sit there wondering what I missed, because for both Steris and Renarin, I viewed them as fairly normal people, even with the lists. I am fairly blind to this sort of thing, even in real life. I have a friend whose gay who I have been friends with for years, and he recently told me he was gay and I was surprised, and he was confused I was surprised because a lot of people seemed to find it obvious he was gay and that he had a lot of telltale signs, but whatever those signs are, they just go over my head. So I can never tell when a character is being written autistic because I always seem to see their behavior as normal, if a little quirky in regards to Steris' lists. Possibly because I myself am very abnormal, so abnormal is my normal? I have no idea, I just know I am blind to this.

 

1 hour ago, GameOfGroans said:

So once again, guys: what The Disporportionate is saying is not that they have a problem with multiple "queer" traits in a single character, but that Brandon, in his writing about them, might forget to focus on the more individual parts of their personalities, especially considering how little screen time they get. It is certainly in the interest of any minority to be presented as complex personalities rather than only based on their "queer" traits, no?

Well, that's the thing that confuses me is that hasn't been a focus at all in the books. Rlain's outcast status has more to do with loyalties, similar to how someone betraying their people for another and how those people might be suspicious of him despite him giving them information. The fact they are gay is such a small factor that there are people who missed it who are not just me. What he is saying is a legitimate concern, you never want an author to focus too much on one trait only, I just don't think this announcement should've sparked that worry, as it is something said outside the book. If it wasn't for that confirmation, people would be split about whether or not they would be a thing. And like said above, how many 'isms' is too many?

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13 hours ago, Comatose said:

EDIT:  It's interesting that the reverse argument never comes up - you never see characters with multiple hegemonic norms brought up as lacking individual character.  I've never seen anyone say there's no room in Kelsier or Elend for individual characterization because of their straight white cisgender neurotypical male-ness, so I'm confused why it would be an issue for queer characters.

I gotcha covered, fam

 

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5 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I really want this now. Don't tempt me, because I doubt BS is going to do it. 

There's always fanfic!  

Anyway, my personal take on the actual topic of discussion is that I've never seen BS write a character just to be a Token X.  Even when he was less experienced, female and minority characters all had depth and compelling personalities.   

(though I do want to see a novella about Two Lost Windrunner Squires And A Baby King, that would be fun)

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8 hours ago, Honorless said:

I gotcha covered, fam

 

I love OSP.  I think something she doesn't get into much though is the fan reactions.  Identifying the impact of the "baseline" character traits in aggregate on characterization is a good exercise, but it's definitely true that characters that do not fit all the 'default' boxes because they are female, gay, neuro-atypical, etc. are more likely to be criticized for being 'flat' or 'defined by their attributes' then characters who are defined by accepted 'default' attributes.  I like what she says about 'default' attributes being somewhat invisible, and so maybe that's where it comes from.  

The more I think about this, the more I get turned around by the idea that some characteristics are seen as adding to a character or developing them, making them more three dimensional (quirks, talents, unique ways of thinking) whereas others are seen as making characters more one dimensional.  I definitely see this where a person has one defining character trait (gay, female) and no other distinctive traits, but I think aversion to these one note attempts at representation might make us over-zealous at times at policing representation in fiction.  The gay character is not one note because they are gay - they are one note because they are ONLY gay.  The absence of defining character traits is difficult to look for (its easier to spot the presence of something than its absence) - so maybe our brains tend to scrutinize non-hegemonic character traits more closely as a short hand.  Past experience tells us authors are more likely to cut corners with secondary minority representation characters, so we scrutinize those characters more heavily for complex characterization than we do for straight white cis neurotypical male characters, because we expect those 'default' main characters to be more fleshed out (even if they often really aren't).  

This is meant to argue anything - just musing on different reactions.  Anyways, applying this to Rlain and Renarin - I think we've already seen a lot of both of them.  We know Renarin puts family first to a fault, is clever and observant, prefers to let other take the lead but gets frustrated not being listened to, and deals with a lot of fear and anxiety at times.  He is hard working and willing to try things he is not good at.  We also know his is autistic, and now that he has an attraction to another male character.  We know Rlain is willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, but still stands up for himself.  We know he is very open to meeting new people and learning about people who are different from him.  We know he is compassionate and brave.  He is principled and dislikes deceit and liars, but can be pragmatic and shows willingness to work with people he doesn't like for the greater good.  He is also a Listener who had a bad experience with mateform and may reciprocate Renarin's feelings.  

Basically, I guess my point is, whether or not these characteristics are revealed through a narrative dominated by a particular theme (such as being an outcast), they are still multiple dimensions of these characters.  Adding a new axis on which to examine the character, like a romantic one, should be an opportunity to examine the different facets in a new light and expose new ones.  Issues with exploring different characteristics can exist independently of a character's identity intersections, and no matter how many match the 'default' baseline.

[Sidebar] Lastly (sorry for the essay - I just find this stuff really interesting), I think the earlier comment about people assuming the worst when people make certain statements can apply multiple ways.  Yes - its easy to get emotional and assume the worst in someone when your reading of their statement upsets you.  I think its also easy to mistake an emotional response from someone who cares a lot about an issue, or for who the matter being discussed hits very close to home, and assume it is a personal attack when it isn't.  As I wrote in our guide to contentious topics, I think, aside from some extreme exceptions, it's  generally best to assume the best of people on all sides.  When I read something as problematic or offensive, I like to assume the person didn't intend it that way and offer polite correction.  When something feels like a personal attack, I like to take a moment to examine my defensiveness, and see if it's actually less about what the person who is disagreeing with me is saying, and more about my own insecurity or discomfort knowing that I might not have worded my point as intended, or made a comment unsupported by my education or experience.  [/End Sidebar]

Obviously I find this all very interesting, particularly because of its application to Rlain and Renarin, who I absolutely adore.  Sorry if this is too off topic haha.  

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At the risk of missing something here's my comment without reading everything. 

Outcasts band together. RenarinXRlain has to be the ship that makes the  most sense.

Also I bet the both get a ton more characterization in the back half where Renarin will be a much bigger deal.

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Yep, one of the most exciting things about this is the high probability of Rlain being a key character in the back 5.

I also wonder whether he has the same combination of powers as Renarin - or if he has Illumination and another power instead of Progression, so the other way around.

Edited by Elegy
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11 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Yep, one of the most exciting things about this is the high probability of Rlain being a key character in the back 5.

So you think SA#5 is going to be the Truthwatcher book?

11 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I also wonder whether he has the same combination of powers as Renarin - or if he has Illumination and another power instead of Progression, so the other way around.

Yes. And I want to see what happens when they tru to use Voidlight, Towerlight or Warlight.

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13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So you think SA#5 is going to be the Truthwatcher book?

What I meant was "the back 5", not "book 5". I can totally see why you'd misread that though. If Renarin and Rlain become (and stay) a couple, Rlain would be the love interest character of one of the main focus characters, similar to Adolin or Navani in the front 5. As it's planned right now, book 7 will be the Truthwatcher and Renarin flackback book.

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Anyone now want to go over an exclusively cis, white, male, cast with the same amount of scrutiny we hit every women, gay, or trans character with?

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Anyone now want to go over an exclusively cis, white, male, cast with the same amount of scrutiny we hit every women, gay, or trans character with?

A lot of those tend to be super boring and characterless.  And even crazy hacks tend to include at least token non-straight white male characters for diversity points/to gotcha critics these days.  Freaking Tom Kratman had a female Latino protagonist in a book he wrote about Evil Lesbian Hillary Clinton being evil, and Tom Kratman thinks that the SS were good guys and the Jews are just sore losers (no, I'm not kidding, that's actually a plot point in a book that he wrote about the SS being heroes who bravely save the world from alien invasion, and yes, somehow that racist moron still gets published).  

It'd be nice if people would be a little less harsh towards genuine attempts to give healthy and supportive representation for marginalized groups in fiction, though.  Even BS's weakest books in this regard (looking at Elantris with all of two female characters who actually matter and a very obviously 2000s approach to women's liberation that's about on the same level as the anvils Tamora Pierce was dropping in the '80s, before she wrote Protector of the Small and created the best female protagonist of any book I've ever read in Kel) at least have interesting, competent, well-written female protagonists (I still like to imagine that the lady who ran the gang in Elantris to protect the Hoed kids getting to be a Cognitive Shadow and being able to watch over her kid from the Cognitive Realm, I really liked her and wish she hadn't died).  And considering we're talking about an author who grew up in the 1980s and 1990s in a conservative Plains state, I'm not surprised at all that it took him a while to feel comfortable writing LGBT characters in a respectful manner.  

And besides, isn't the whole point of the Stormlight Archive that you don't have to be perfect, you just have to genuinely try your best and get better bit by bit as you go?  

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4 hours ago, Elegy said:

As it's planned right now, book 7 will be the Truthwatcher and Renarin flackback book.

And I am super excited about that. I'd love to learn a little more bout Renarin's abilities before that: That moment he shows Moash another possible version of himself: Is that Renarin's (corrupted) light-weaving? Is it a standard Truthwatcher thing? Or a Sja-Anat thing? ahhhh

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On 12/19/2020 at 2:03 AM, Dannex said:

I completely agree. My worry is that Rlain’s ‘outcast theme’ is going to end up being his one and only theme. 

That isn’t the main critique really, it isn’t the the ‘focusing on being an outcast’ that concerns me, it’s the ‘only focusing on being an outcast’. I’d have the exact same opinion about Rlain if, instead of focusing on his ‘outcastness’ Brandon was focusing on how much Rlain loves to paint. It isn’t the specific thing that is being focused on that I’m worried about, it’s the fact that it seems like that is the only thing that’s being focused on. 

Which makes me really confused as to how so many people so drastically misunderstood me. This is how the thread has gone from my POV: 

Me: I’m worried Brandon might be starting to focus too much on this one aspect of this one character.
Everyone Else: So you’re a bigot then. 
:blink:

 

This is a good point, hopefully this will be the case. 

No one called you a bigot. But villainizing the lovely people in this thread who responded to your argument sure doesn't help your case...

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7 hours ago, Karger said:

Anyone now want to go over an exclusively cis, white, male, cast with the same amount of scrutiny we hit every women, gay, or trans character with?

I don't read quite everything, but most of the topics that focus on somebody's queer or minority trait seem to be people rejoicing and celebrating representation.

In this thread, one person expressed mild concern that Brandon might dilute the individuality of those characters while focusing on their outcast status, and a few people (IMO) misjudged their intentions.

Although, I did notice several people who seem to hate Navani with the heat of a thousand splendid suns, and I couldn't not wonder if there are a few misogynists around. To be fair, it might be that they think she's too bland, or too Kholin.

There are plenty of threads discussing cis male characters (white doesn't really count here), but it's pretty obvious why their cis-ness and maleness is not discussed. It's perfectly human and realistic when somebody is different than most to at least consider the influence such a difference has on a character, just as in real life. People who fit what the majority expects simply do not have problems with their self-image, or social problems, based on that. Of all the gay people I know, there is only one who didn't feel already since childhood that they don't quite belong and would not be accepted by the society. I agree it's sad and unfair, but it's also reality.

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7 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Although, I did notice several people who seem to hate Navani with the heat of a thousand splendid suns, and I couldn't not wonder if there are a few misogynists around. To be fair, it might be that they think she's too bland, or too Kholin.

I personally do not comprehend how anyone can not love Best Science Mom.  She's a kindhearted stepmother who became such after deciding to move on from her abusive relationship by seizing the initiative and getting together with the much better dude she'd always liked, which she and said other dude did in their late middle age at the earliest, she's brilliant and kind and supportive and bucks tradition because she's sick and tired of it, and I just freaking love her.  

Also when was the last time you saw a wholesome, gentle romance between two older adults in fiction???  

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On 12/18/2020 at 0:45 PM, Dannex said:

In all the previous books, Rlain’s ‘outcastness’ has been just an aspect of his character. In RoW it completely dominated his entire character. I feel like he was a complex, 3 dimensional character, and now in RoW he’s being devolved into the “sympathetic misfit” archetype. 

Although it’s worth mentioning that I didn’t actually have a problem with it in RoW, it made sense there. The reveal that Rlain is also gay just makes me think this trend is just going to continue, maybe to the point where I don’t like it, but as I mentioned before, I bet Brandon will convince me of it by then.  

Worth noting that in-world his being gay is the one thing he isn’t going to be an outcast for. They don’t consider it ‘unusual’ there.

Actually, Renarin/Rlain will receive more in-world flack for being a mixed species couple than anything else. Which may be the point: the thing that would come up most in our world isn’t even considered worthy of mention by the other characters.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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On 12/19/2020 at 4:10 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

Hmm. Maybe Kal is still on the table then. 

I don't think so. The full quote was something like "shallan and adolin would probably be open to it but Kal is as prudish as I am."

 

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On 12/18/2020 at 11:45 PM, likehephaestion said:

:((((

chins go the other way

On 12/19/2020 at 2:14 PM, Oltux72 said:

Voidlight, Towerlight or Warlight.

Or revengelight or anti of any of these

Edited by Hoid the Drifter
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On 12/19/2020 at 4:14 PM, Karger said:

Anyone now want to go over an exclusively cis, white, male, cast with the same amount of scrutiny we hit every women, gay, or trans character with?

I mean I would love to talk about how Eland had absolutely not personality and was literally just a white cis het man. And how in comparison to Renarin/Ralin Eland/Vin makes so little sense. And like maybe there is a joke to be made about "oh I don't get cishet relationships" but also, what did Eland bring to the table? Money? He had no personality he was bland. Renarin and Ralin have things in common (the very things people are complaining about "taking away personality" give them reason to be together) but no one ever wants to talk about how cishet couples feel forced bc, I don't know, that's the way it's supposed to be or something idk. 

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1 minute ago, likehephaestion said:

I mean I would love to talk about how Eland had absolutely not personality and was literally just a white cis het man.

I will hunt you down to the ends of the earth and debate you on this even after I die. Elend (Yes, that's how you spell it, my friend.) absolutely has character and has to struggle massively with his won concept of honor and integrity while trying to rule a city that doesn't want /and/or not ready for him. Money was literally never an important part of his character. If you still disagree, I will make another thread to debate you on this, Elend is great. (I am now tempted to look up his description and see where he falls on my scale of attractiveness. (Saw some fan art. He's meh. Still prefer the Lord Ruler and Susebron))  

 

7 minutes ago, likehephaestion said:

He had no personality he was bland. Renarin and Ralin have things in common (the very things people are complaining about "taking away personality" give them reason to be together)

Agreed. Outcasts can attract other outcasts as they understand each other's outcastyness. 

 

9 minutes ago, likehephaestion said:

but no one ever wants to talk about how cishet couples feel forced bc, I don't know, that's the way it's supposed to be or something idk

Hmm. Not sure about this. I specifically analyze all relationships and whether or not they feel forced, and I know plenty of people who criticize media for having two main characters with different junk forced together, an obvious example being Kirito and Asuna from SAO, so I think it has more to do with the circles your in.

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