Renarin

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I guess? I don’t really have a problem with Rlain in RoW, his outcastyness makes sense there, although it is blatantly the single aspect of his character that is focused on in that entire book. The reveal that he is also gay, and also going to be in a relationship with the other outcasty character, makes me think that this is all Brandon is going to focus on for him. 

Okay. I will mention many characters will have one aspect focused in a book, like say, kaladin's depression. I see your worries for potential problems, I disagree there are currently problems (Not like you're saying that.)

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Oh yeah, I remember that.  I was fine at first until I started reading apollo's trials and realized he had an LGTBQ+ character in every book and realized he was just wanting to cram that in. They weren't important and clearly there to check off a box. And that made me look at Magnus Chase ina new light and saw the beginnings of that.

I was thinking about the sheer no. of diversity he tried to cram in and how said characters were basically irreproachable and a meta mouthpiece for the author, though the opinions presented were positive, that's still not great representation.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

I was thinking about the sheer no. of diversity he tried to cram in and how said characters were basically irreproachable and a meta mouthpiece for the author, though the opinions presented were positive, that's still not great representation.

Yeah, agreed. I've noticed Rick Riordan's writing has been slowly decreasing in quality, the terrible representation being part of it. have you noticed that as well?

[Impact]

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I guess? I don’t really have a problem with Rlain in RoW, his outcastyness makes sense there, although it is blatantly the single aspect of his character that is focused on in that entire book. The reveal that he is also gay, and also going to be in a relationship with the other outcasty character, makes me think that this is all Brandon is going to focus on for him. 

I mean, it kind of makes perfect sense to me.  The outcasts spend time together because they both feel unaccepted, and feelings develop.  That's pretty logical to me

[Honorless]

@Aspiring Writer, I think and hope neither you nor Danex meant to say what you ended up sounding like you're saying

Finding an LGBT character in every series is nice for LGBT people, so that came off a bit insensitive.

 

As for being gay, that is totally a big part of our lives that we have to deal with, a big part of our identity, and how people see us. So I don't have a problem if that's a large part of Renarin's character because that is also a large part of my own character.

The same is also goes for mental illnesses and disabilities.

Renarin is dealing with twice the chull dung, that's all. And so is Rlain.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Honorless

[GroundPetrel]

6 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Oh yeah, I remember that.  I was fine at first until I started reading apollo's trials and realized he had an LGTBQ+ character in every book and realized he was just wanting to cram that in. They weren't important and clearly there to check off a box. And that made me look at Magnus Chase ina new light and saw the beginnings of that.

???  The protagonist of the Apollo books is literally pansexual and implicitly genderfluid.  One of that character's male/male romantic relationships is explicitly an inextricably tied into the plot.  That's not exactly tokenism or box-checking.  

 

5 hours ago, Impact said:

I mean, it kind of makes perfect sense to me.  The outcasts spend time together because they both feel unaccepted, and feelings develop.  That's pretty logical to me

I'm honestly kinda surprised that Rlain didn't fit more into Bridge Four, Kaladin and the others seemed to have fully embraced him by the end of Words of Radiance.  

[Impact]

27 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

I'm honestly kinda surprised that Rlain didn't fit more into Bridge Four, Kaladin and the others seemed to have fully embraced him by the end of Words of Radiance.  

In OB, it showed how they tried, but often would forget him, or do that minority "*you're one of the good ones*" thing, which, even if they didn't mean it, kind of put him on the outside of them.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, GroundPetrel said:

???  The protagonist of the Apollo books is literally pansexual and implicitly genderfluid.  One of that character's male/male romantic relationships is explicitly an inextricably tied into the plot.  That's not exactly tokenism or box-checking.  

... I'm an idiot, don't listen to me. Forgot Apollo is gay. Still have some problems with his latest writing.

[GroundPetrel]

1 hour ago, Impact said:

In OB, it showed how they tried, but often would forget him, or do that minority "*you're one of the good ones*" thing, which, even if they didn't mean it, kind of put him on the outside of them.

That's fair.  It's a shame, I was really looking forward to a singer Windrunner. 

27 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

... I'm an idiot, don't listen to me. Forgot Apollo is gay. Still have some problems with his latest writing.

Me, I just think it's great how Riordan is using his status and reputation to put increasingly overt social liberalism into his books.  First it was "btw America is racist" in the Egyptian books, then "yeah uh these kids have PTSD" and "hey you remember America's centuries-long history of awful bigotry?" in the Roman books, and then "LGBT kids are way overrepresented among  homeless people", etc.  

Even though I'm a dirty anarchist, I do enjoy a good case of weaponized privilege.  

[Karger]

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

But hey, this lack of room for their own character to shine through when they're so bogged down with various identities might be the very thing that Brandon wants to explore with their character.

I would totally get behind that.  A character whose struggle revolves around defining themselves beyond their isms.  This is even more interesting when considering they are both truthwatchers.  The very thing that they want people to get is the thing their own spren have such a hard time understanding.

[Rai]

Arguing that Rlain being gay would make him more of an outcast is kind of weird since homosexuality isn't even marginalized within Alethi society. I really don't think that argument stands up within the context of the story, lmao... you can argue readers would treat him as more of an outcast, I guess, but that's not something that the characters would do.  

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Rai said:

Arguing that Rlain being gay would make him more of an outcast is kind of weird since homosexuality isn't even marginalized within Alethi society. I really don't think that argument stands up within the context of the story, lmao... you can argue readers would treat him as more of an outcast, I guess, but that's not something that the characters would do.  

Yeah, I was wanting to mention that there are already gay characters in Bridge four, he would fit in perfectly. There isn't any real discrimination there for the Alethi.

[Comatose]

Renarin and Rlain was one of the things I was most excited about after finishing RoW, so I am vibrating over the news.  I have to say, it feels very validating for subtext to be acknowledged as intentional and legitimate.  Often I find writers will include queer subtext without meaning to, or the worse ones include it just to string queer fans along with no intention of giving a pay off in the end - so it's just super exciting to know Brandon is foreshadowing this intentionally.  

For me the argument of a character being crammed full of two many 'isms' doesn't really carry much water (I didn't love Brandon's use of it in his annotation about Jasnah either).  Everyone is crammed full of isms.  Even the stereotypical "straight white cisgender male" is full of isms, they just happen to be ones that are associated with the hegemonic norms.  Identities are intersectional, so I have no issue with Brandon exploring intersectional identities in his books. I think representation-wise this only becomes an issue if there is only ONE minority character meant to represent as many minority groups as possible.  Here we have lots of characters with diverse race, gender, and sexuality identities, so I don't see intersectionality used in this way to be an issue.  

EDIT:  It's interesting that the reverse argument never comes up - you never see characters with multiple hegemonic norms brought up as lacking individual character.  I've never seen anyone say there's no room in Kelsier or Elend for individual characterization because of their straight white cisgender neurotypical male-ness, so I'm confused why it would be an issue for queer characters.  

Now I'm just excited for Renarin telling Adolin about his crush, because that's going to be just the most wholesome thing ever.  I don't think it'll earn screen time, but I'm also head canoning brunch between Renarin and Rlain and Drehy and Dru because imagining them taking some time to fondly kvetch about the heterosexual nonsense of the rest of Bridge Four would just be super fun and relateable.   

[GroundPetrel]

1 hour ago, Comatose said:

Now I'm just excited for Renarin telling Adolin about his crush, because that's going to be just the most wholesome thing ever.  I don't think it'll earn screen time, but I'm also head canoning brunch between Renarin and Rlain and Drehy and Dru because imagining them taking some time to fondly kvetch about the heterosexual nonsense of the rest of Bridge Four would just be super fun and relateable.   

That deserves screentime.  I need some "Living therapy blanket Adolin Kholin is  unhesitatingly supportive of his brother and does exactly enough to help Renarin prepare for his first date so as to not be overwhelming while still making it a night to remember" in my life.  

Then again I need an Adolin Kholin in my life to give me a bigass hug and tell me that all this storming gender nonsense will end up OK every night.  So I may be biased.  

[Comatose]

7 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

That deserves screentime.  I need some "Living therapy blanket Adolin Kholin is  unhesitatingly supportive of his brother and does exactly enough to help Renarin prepare for his first date so as to not be overwhelming while still making it a night to remember" in my life.  

Then again I need an Adolin Kholin in my life to give me a bigass hug and tell me that all this storming gender nonsense will end up OK every night.  So I may be biased.  

What about "Adolin gives Renarin dating advice and then Shallan points put Adolin doesn't have a great track record, and then Pattern says something hilarious" - honestly there's so much great potential.  

[AonEne]

I am here for any and all adorable 'gang-supports-Rlainarin' stuff!

About the main discussion that's been going on, I don't think Danex meant to convey that people with more than one minority status don't exist or are crowding things in general (because obviously that's not true; I don't think anyone on here believes that). I think he was specifically worried about these two characters, and while I don't agree with Renarin, I do agree about Rlain. I love him, but his arc over the past books has been pretty much entirely about being an outcast - which isn't really a bad thing, but I can definitely see it starting to grate. I'm betting we'll get better characterization in the back half.

[danex]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the Editor said:

I am here for any and all adorable 'gang-supports-Rlainarin' stuff!

About the main discussion that's been going on, I don't think Danex meant to convey that people with more than one minority status don't exist or are crowding things in general (because obviously that's not true; I don't think anyone on here believes that). I think he was specifically worried about these two characters, and while I don't agree with Renarin, I do agree about Rlain. I love him, but his arc over the past books has been pretty much entirely about being an outcast - which isn't really a bad thing, but I can definitely see it starting to grate. I'm betting we'll get better characterization in the back half.

Yep, that is exactly what I’m saying. 

[Comatose]

30 minutes ago, Ookla the Editor said:

I am here for any and all adorable 'gang-supports-Rlainarin' stuff!

About the main discussion that's been going on, I don't think Danex meant to convey that people with more than one minority status don't exist or are crowding things in general (because obviously that's not true; I don't think anyone on here believes that). I think he was specifically worried about these two characters, and while I don't agree with Renarin, I do agree about Rlain. I love him, but his arc over the past books has been pretty much entirely about being an outcast - which isn't really a bad thing, but I can definitely see it starting to grate. I'm betting we'll get better characterization in the back half.

 

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Yep, that is exactly what I’m saying. 

I think thats a fair opinion to have.  I didn't mean to put words in anyone's mouth - just putting my two cents in on the topic of conversation.  

That being said, personally I still have to disagree.  I don't think Rlain's arc dealing with themes of being an outcast is a detriment to his characterization, in the same way I don't think the focus on depression in Kaladin's arc is a detriment to his (obviously Kaladin gets more screentime than Rlain but I hope the example still functions).

Secondly, if the main critique is how Rlain's arc is too focused on being an outcast (which, fair, isn't what everyone will want to read about), I don't see how him being gay or ace or mlm would change or effect that or his characterization?  If anything I feel like a close relationship would give more opportunities to diversify Rlain's arc, and more opportunities to show different facets of his character.  

[GroundPetrel]

1 hour ago, Comatose said:

What about "Adolin gives Renarin dating advice and then Shallan points put Adolin doesn't have a great track record, and then Pattern says something hilarious" - honestly there's so much great potential.  

I'm here for that, too!  

Or Adolin decides that he's going to pay for the best restaurant available during the apocalypse, and he will personally monitor the service to make sure it's the best (because Adolin Kholin's brother deserves the absolute very best, storm it), and Renarin and Rlain spend the whole time politely ignoring the incredibly obvious dork making sure that literally everything is absolutely perfect from the next room.  

Or Shallan distracts Adolin with a fake mission with her and Kaladin, but one of the bad guys kidnaps them or something so they end up having a dramatic adventure and sleeping in a cave together and they stumble back through the Oathgate the next morning battered and bruised with Adolin wearing a rust-eating grin and Kaladin refusing to speak of what happened and Dalinar and Navani are like "WTF were the kids doing?" and Dalinar is like "well at least Renarin can do this courting thing right, now to be Very Tolerant of his extremely unusual choice of date" and Navani is like "you do that, Dalinar, I need to talk to your other kid" and Shallan makes Adolin stay tight-lipped for Kaladin's sake.  

Or Bridge 4 decide to do the cooking and so Numuhukuakiaki'aialunamor gives them something specifically designed and served so that they have to share it in a super romantic way and Sigzil takes notes on Alethi and listener courting traditions from an unobtrusive spot in the corner and Kaladin comes looking for his men and ends up apologizing for interrupting the date but Renarin says that honestly it's not that big a deal and really, Highmarshal, you should try dating yourself, it's good to have somebody in addition to a spren to share your troubles with, and Syl materializes to agree emphatically and Kaladin flushes red as a beet.  

Or...look, I'm here for literally any lightly comedic soft gay softness.  It's been a storming terrible couple of years and I just want these poor screwed-up characters to be happy.  

[danex]

1 minute ago, Comatose said:

I don't think Rlain's arc dealing with themes of being an outcast is a detriment to his characterization, in the same way I don't think the focus on depression in Kaladin's arc is a detriment to his (obviously Kaladin gets more screentime than Rlain but I hope the example still functions).

I completely agree. My worry is that Rlain’s ‘outcast theme’ is going to end up being his one and only theme. 

2 minutes ago, Comatose said:

Secondly, if the main critique is how Rlain's arc is too focused on being an outcast (which, fair, isn't what everyone will want to read about),

That isn’t the main critique really, it isn’t the the ‘focusing on being an outcast’ that concerns me, it’s the ‘only focusing on being an outcast’. I’d have the exact same opinion about Rlain if, instead of focusing on his ‘outcastness’ Brandon was focusing on how much Rlain loves to paint. It isn’t the specific thing that is being focused on that I’m worried about, it’s the fact that it seems like that is the only thing that’s being focused on. 

Which makes me really confused as to how so many people so drastically misunderstood me. This is how the thread has gone from my POV: 

Me: I’m worried Brandon might be starting to focus too much on this one aspect of this one character.
Everyone Else: So you’re a bigot then. 

 

12 minutes ago, Comatose said:

If anything I feel like a close relationship would give more opportunities to diversify Rlain's arc, and more opportunities to show different facets of his character.  

This is a good point, hopefully this will be the case. 

[Greywatch]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I completely agree. My worry is that Rlain’s ‘outcast theme’ is going to end up being his one and only theme. 

That isn’t the main critique really, it isn’t the the ‘focusing on being an outcast’ that concerns me, it’s the ‘only focusing on being an outcast’. I’d have the exact same opinion about Rlain if, instead of focusing on his ‘outcastness’ Brandon was focusing on how much Rlain loves to paint. It isn’t the specific thing that is being focused on that I’m worried about, it’s the fact that it seems like that is the only thing that’s being focused on. 

Which makes me really confused as to how so many people so drastically misunderstood me. This is how the thread has gone from my POV: 

Me: I’m worried Brandon might be starting to focus too much on this one aspect of this one character.
Everyone Else: So you’re a bigot then. 

I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that you felt so moved to say this on an announcement of them being gay? They are minor characters, but they still have had good characterization for four books up until now. This is not the only thing either Brandon or the fans are *only* focused on, but I think it's possible people are noting the fact that this specific announcement is what prompted your, frankly, baseless fear. Both characters already have more to them than this in terms of personality, values, and history.

[Comatose]

I certainly wasn't intending to call you that.  I can't speak for others, but I think some of the middle paragraphs of your original post provoked some heated emotional reactions more due to implication.  Keep in mind this is a thread about Renarin and Rlain's relationship, so some of the statements made in that context might have made people a little defensive.  I'm still not clear on what the relationship has to do with the concern that the characters won't be fleshed out enough since I see it as fleshing them out more.  

Regardless, hopefully we can disagree respectfully on this.  I definitely hear uou that you didn't intend the post the way others seemed to take it. 

GroundPeterel- I love all those scenarios

[GroundPetrel]

16 minutes ago, Comatose said:

GroundPeterel- I love all those scenarios

I freely admit that I am absolute trash for Adolin Kholin the over-dramatic supportive flamboyantly and obviously bi dandy, Dalinar Kholin the old-fashioned but Trying Very Hard dad, and Navani Kholin the good mom.  

I am sure that I haven't come anywhere near to whatever we actually end up getting, which I am 100% certain will result in minds exploding.  

[Comatose]

I am similarly Adolin trash haha.  

But honestly, Rlainarin is stealing a lot of my Kadolin love.  Adolin is forever bae though.  

I'm very curious what Rlainarin's presence will be in the back 5 since things are supposed to come to light next book, and Renarin has a major role to play in the late game.  

Also two corrupted truthwatchers means twice the weird future visions.  Should be fun.  

[GroundPetrel]

6 minutes ago, Comatose said:

I am similarly Adolin trash haha.  

But honestly, Rlainarin is stealing a lot of my Kadolin love.  Adolin is forever bae though.  

I'm very curious what Rlainarin's presence will be in the back 5 since things are supposed to come to light next book, and Renarin has a major role to play in the late game.  

Also two corrupted truthwatchers means twice the weird future visions.  Should be fun.  

I am still holding on to the hope that Shallan will decide that what she really needs is a harem.  Or, well, different men for different personalities.  And then invite Kaladin into the relationship.  We already have WOB that Adolin would be chill with this, after  all.  XD

Dalinar would probably be like "Son, what in Honor's name...where is your honor?  Your sense of duty to your wife?"  etc. etc. more honor and duty than a Klingon lecturing his son on proper Klingon values.  Then Navani would elbow him aside before the shouting match gets too loud, hug Adolin, tell him she's happy for everybody involved, and then pull Dalinar into another room for a stern lecture.  

Kaladin would try to run away.  Shallan would pull him back.  It would end up as happy as you can get between two people with severe mental health issues and a Well Done, Son! Guy in the middle of the apocalypse.