Karger

Renarin

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Brandon answered a certain question about the person Renarin was crushing on.  I totally called it!

On 2/16/2020 at 9:53 AM, Karger said:

Also (in my personal opinion) Renarin and to be fair Brandon says he is trying to avoid writing the "gay male lead."

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In the live stream it was accidentally confirmed who his crush is. The host confirmed the chat was correct in their guess.  I cant see the chat comments though.

 

"The chat has guessed it" then Brandon said "It isnt meant to be a secret or a trick" 

Edited by teknopathetic
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Let's just say I got my wish when asking to see a certain kind of couple. (And no, I don't mean gay.)

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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I have a lot of mixed feelings about this reveal. I’m perfectly fine with both Rlain and Renarin being revealed as gay, but I don’t think I like where this is headed...

I mentioned this before in the thread about Rlain possibly being gay, and the reveal that Renarin is gay too kinda supports that. 

It just really feels like Brandon is cramming as much minority representation into these two characters as he can. Renarin is autistic, Rlain is a different species and a different culture from most other members of said species. They were both the sorta “outcasty” members of Bridge Four. Now they’re both gay, and on top of it all, they’re a couple. (Or going to be I guess.)

I should point out that I have nothing against representation, even poorly done representation. I’m not saying that I think this is too political, or that I think it wasn’t done correctly or anything like that. 
I just feel like there isn’t any room for these character’s actual personalities. They’re being completely defined by the things that make them different. In my opinion it’s lessening the value of the characters. 

I do think it’s probably too early to be too critical of this, Brandon said it probably isn’t going to be on-screen til the back five. And I am a very easily pleased person, so far, in all of the released Cosmere, I think Brandon has made 1 mistake. And it’s a super minor one, I think that he makes allomancers seem too common in MB Era 2, despite it being said that they’re supposed to be more rare. That is my one single complaint. I love every single other thing in the Cosmere, I think Shallan is a great character, I think Moash is a wonderfully written villain, I can’t think of a single negative thing about SA at all. So I bet that once we actually get around to seeing Renarin x Rlain, I will be fully on board. 

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Renarin is autistic

I thought he was just epileptic.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I think that he makes allomancers seem too common in MB Era 2, despite it being said that they’re supposed to be more rare.

they're not more common as much as they all are in one area and also, allomancers are more notorious.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I think Moash is a wonderfully written villain,

except that everyone hates his guts with a Passion :P

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8 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

I thought he was just epileptic.

Quote

leinton (paraphrased)

Is Steris autistic?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She is definitely on the spectrum, but more toward where Asperger’s used to be. Not nearly as far along in the spectrum as Renarin.

Shadows of Self San Diego signing (Oct. 8, 2015)

 

10 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

except that everyone hates his guts with a Passion :P

Oh, no, I definitely hate Moash. Everyone hates Moash. But a lot of people hate him from an out-of-world perspective, rather than an in-world one. They think he is a poorly written, shallow, hate-sink character that serves no purpose. I don’t think that, and was saying that as an example of me liking something that many others hate. 

To be extra clear, I like Moash from an out-of-world writing standpoint, and I hate him from an in-world character standpoint. 

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Quote

Ieinton (paraphrased)

Is Steris autistic?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

She is definitely on the spectrum, but more toward where Asperger’s used to be.

That explains why she was so obsessive about everything i guess.

BTW Passion was capitalized for a reason ;)

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@Ookla the Disproportionate, yeah, gives me flashbacks to the Magnus Chase books.

But hey, this lack of room for their own character to shine through when they're so bogged down with various identities might be the very thing that Brandon wants to explore with their character.

 

P.S. I'll note that I did like Moash from an in-world perspective too, at least till Oathbringer.

Edited by Honorless
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Thought this was an interesting bit when I first read it, and now it appears in a bit of a different light. A quote from Rhythm of War, chapter 79:

"In the face of it all--the frightened humans, the mistrusting Regals, the occasionally awed ordinary singers--he wished he could simply be Rlain. He hated that to every one of them, he was some kind of representation of an entire people. He wanted to be seen as a person, not a symbol.
The closest he'd come had been among the men of Bridge Four. Even though they'd named him "Shen," of all things. That was like naming one of their children "Human." But for all their faults, they had succeeded in giving him a home. Because they'd been willing to try to see him for himself."

Edited by Elegy
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5 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

 

It just really feels like Brandon is cramming as much minority representation into these two characters as he can. Renarin is autistic, Rlain is a different species and a different culture from most other members of said species. They were both the sorta “outcasty” members of Bridge Four. Now they’re both gay, and on top of it all, they’re a couple. (Or going to be I guess.)

 

...uhh, hate to break it to ya, but there are autistic gay peeps out there. And yeah, they can also be outcasts. 

I do think it is fair to think that the situation could go south, but I have confidence in our Brando Sando. He generally gets things right, unless it is Rosharan metaphors in TWoK.

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7 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I just feel like there isn’t any room for these character’s actual personalities. They’re being completely defined by the things that make them different. In my opinion it’s lessening the value of the characters. 

I hope you come to realize how stupid this sounds. Autistic gay people exist and they have no lesser personalities for it. Autistic gay people exist and they deserve to see themselves represented on books. A character being a part of different minority groups doesn't lessen their value, and if you somehow think that Renarin's only character trait so far is being autistic then you haven't read the book well enough. If you think that Rlain's only character trait is being a Listener, then you DEFINETLY did not properly read RoW. They are already fully-realized characters, and them being gay is not going to change that.

Queer people ARE a lot of the times outcasts (I speak this as a queer person) and a lot of us identify with these specific characters because they are outcasts. Renarin and Rlain are the outcasts of the outcasts and if that's not perfect symbolism for many real-life queer identities then I don't know what it is. I think that if you were actually worried about their character development then you'd have realized that it has already been done, and that both Renarin and Rlain are fully fleshed-out characters, but I don't think that was your actual worry to begin with.

 

Edited by nautileos
typo
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5 hours ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

That explains why she was so obsessive about everything i guess.

BTW Passion was capitalized for a reason ;)

I actually don't read Renarin as autistic-spectrum, he comes off more as OCD maybe with mild ADHD and poor socialization as a child, probably with tardive dyskinesia or epilepsy to go with.  

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

@Ookla the Disproportionate, yeah, gives me flashbacks to the Magnus Chase books. But hey, this lack of room for their own character to shine through when they're so bogged down with various identities might be the very thing that Brandon wants to explore with their character.

...I actually liked those books.  

I do think that Renarin and Rlain both deserve significantly more time dedicated to them, but it's nice IMO to see the supporting characters developed a bit and having their own lives.  This doesn't come off to me (grab bag of neurological issues, definitely some kind of queer though I'm still sorting out that gender thing) as tokenism, like when JJ Abrams had two extras kiss in the background to get woke points even though his movie was regressive crap, or an attempt to excuse a less than PC storyline (like everything Steve Moffat has ever written).  It's just two guys in the background who are a thing.  

Would love to see them take the foreground for a bit though.  Fully expect that to happen in 6-10.  

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9 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I have a lot of mixed feelings about this reveal. I’m perfectly fine with both Rlain and Renarin being revealed as gay, but I don’t think I like where this is headed...

I mentioned this before in the thread about Rlain possibly being gay, and the reveal that Renarin is gay too kinda supports that. 

It just really feels like Brandon is cramming as much minority representation into these two characters as he can. Renarin is autistic, Rlain is a different species and a different culture from most other members of said species. They were both the sorta “outcasty” members of Bridge Four. Now they’re both gay, and on top of it all, they’re a couple. (Or going to be I guess.)

I should point out that I have nothing against representation, even poorly done representation. I’m not saying that I think this is too political, or that I think it wasn’t done correctly or anything like that. 
I just feel like there isn’t any room for these character’s actual personalities. They’re being completely defined by the things that make them different. In my opinion it’s lessening the value of the characters. 

I do think it’s probably too early to be too critical of this, Brandon said it probably isn’t going to be on-screen til the back five. And I am a very easily pleased person, so far, in all of the released Cosmere, I think Brandon has made 1 mistake. And it’s a super minor one, I think that he makes allomancers seem too common in MB Era 2, despite it being said that they’re supposed to be more rare. That is my one single complaint. I love every single other thing in the Cosmere, I think Shallan is a great character, I think Moash is a wonderfully written villain, I can’t think of a single negative thing about SA at all. So I bet that once we actually get around to seeing Renarin x Rlain, I will be fully on board. 

I will mention it is not that obvious in the books and many people didn't see it, so it's not really forced in. He had to basically tell us. I think the fact they have so many representation qualities, they stand out more, especially with the humanxparshman. But he hasn't really done anything with that yet.

 

4 hours ago, Honorless said:

@Ookla the Disproportionate, yeah, gives me flashbacks to the Magnus Chase books.

But hey, this lack of room for their own character to shine through when they're so bogged down with various identities might be the very thing that Brandon wants to explore with their character.

 

P.S. I'll note that I did like Moash from an in-world perspective too, at least till Oathbringer.

Oh yeah, I remember that.  I was fine at first until I started reading apollo's trials and realized he had an LGTBQ+ character in every book and realized he was just wanting to cram that in. They weren't important and clearly there to check off a box. And that made me look at Magnus Chase ina new light and saw the beginnings of that.

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I'll admit I didn't find Renarin as obvious, but in RoW, Rlain mentions how "mateform never went well" and that one stood out to me.  So I didn't really find this as a surprise, even if I didn't connect the dots myself.  

 

I'm not sure why they being gay is such a big deal to people?  Is it "cramming it in" that we have so many major hetero characters? BS literally crammed in the fact that Kaladin had a failed relationship into like 2 sentences and a couple throw backs, and he has depression.  Not sure why someone can be depressed and hetero but someone can't be autistic and gay...

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Sooooo I’m not going to go through and quote everyone who quoted me, but I’ll just say that y’all need to read people’s posts better. 

I’m not complaining about the representation itself in any way, I’m complaining that as of right now, in RoW, Rlain is being written as if those were his only character traits. I’m not talking about people in general, I’m talking about Rlain

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10 minutes ago, Impact said:

I'm not sure why they being gay is such a big deal to people?  Is it "cramming it in" that we have so many major hetero characters? BS literally crammed in the fact that Kaladin had a failed relationship into like 2 sentences and a couple throw backs, and he has depression.  Not sure why someone can be depressed and hetero but someone can't be autistic and gay...

This might be about the amount of issue characters and the overall story arcs will have with it.

Kaladin struggles with depression a lot and has short-lived relationships, which is important to the character, well written, but still tires me when reading sometimes. Renarin has struggled (so far) with being epileptic & autistic, non-conforming to things people expect of him bc of his sex/gender and status (see the discussion with Zahel about why he doesn't want to become an ardent), and with being an outsider. While that was super interesting to read and made me warm to his character quickly and we had some awesome Renarin moments, to me, Renarin is one of The Struggling Guys. These books are about struggling, so that is fine. But I'd say the calm moments, the awesomeness, and the struggle have been 33/33/33 so far, and I am in for some happier moments. Drehy is confronted with some bureaucratic issues from Sigzil and surprise from his captain for being gay. That's it. That last one is an entertaining tidbit, nice to read; no exhausting struggle there.

Now, if Rlain struggles with being an outsider, being a singer among humans, and being gay and all of that are huge issues all around, it's possibly annoying/exhausting to read. I, for example, would prefer to read about some happy, fun moments between these two, and less about overall What are we to do panic. But I am also pretty sure that Brando will put some thought in it and make it good, so - yeah.

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2 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Sooooo I’m not going to go through and quote everyone who quoted me, but I’ll just say that y’all need to read people’s posts better. 

I’m not complaining about the representation itself in any way, I’m complaining that as of right now, in RoW, Rlain is being written as if those were his only character traits. I’m not talking about people in general, I’m talking about Rlain

We still don't know that in the books. It's never been referenced yet. His character traits have focused on him being an outcast to both parshman and humans. The fact the two like each other is barely there, so it can't be their whole character.

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1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

We still don't know that in the books. It's never been referenced yet. His character traits have focused on him being an outcast to both parshman and humans. The fact the two like each other is barely there, so it can't be their whole character.

Yeah, I’m not talking about the ‘being gay’ specifically. That’s why I didn’t mention Renarin. Just the ‘being different and an outcast’ thing in general. It’s Rlain’s whole arc in RoW. Literally his entire character. 

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Just now, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Yeah, I’m not talking about the ‘being gay’ specifically. That’s why I didn’t mention Renarin. Just the ‘being different and an outcast’ thing in general. It’s Rlain’s whole arc in RoW. Literally his entire character. 

Yeah... he is a person without a people... because he betrayed his kind and the humans are suspicious of all parshmen... I'm sorry, I don't see your porblem with that. Would it have been better if the sibling had bonded to Rlain? (I still think that would be a better choice than navani, but that's another thread.)

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4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Yeah... he is a person without a people... because he betrayed his kind and the humans are suspicious of all parshmen... I'm sorry, I don't see your porblem with that. Would it have been better if the sibling had bonded to Rlain? (I still think that would be a better choice than navani, but that's another thread.)

In all the previous books, Rlain’s ‘outcastness’ has been just an aspect of his character. In RoW it completely dominated his entire character. I feel like he was a complex, 3 dimensional character, and now in RoW he’s being devolved into the “sympathetic misfit” archetype. 

Although it’s worth mentioning that I didn’t actually have a problem with it in RoW, it made sense there. The reveal that Rlain is also gay just makes me think this trend is just going to continue, maybe to the point where I don’t like it, but as I mentioned before, I bet Brandon will convince me of it by then.  

Edited by Ookla the Disproportionate
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2 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

In all the previous books, Rlain’s ‘outcastness’ has been just an aspect of his character. In RoW it completely dominated his entire character. I feel like he was a complex, 3 dimensional character, and now in RoW he’s being devolved into the “sympathetic misfit” archetype. 

Okay... would it be better if he then bonded the sibling, as he being an outcast on both sides makes him more appealing to them?

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3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Okay... would it be better if he then bonded the sibling, as he being an outcast on both sides makes him more appealing to them?

I...don’t see how that’s relevant? He didn’t bond the sibling, I’m happy with Navani having bonded the sibling, I have no opinions other than positive for how the whole sibling thing played out.

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1 minute ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I...don’t see how that’s relevant? He didn’t bond the sibling, I’m happy with Navani having bonded the sibling, I have no opinions other than positive for how the whole sibling thing played out.

I'm asking would his outcastness be better if it played to him bonding to the sibling, which is definitely a possibility in the book. I am asking a hypothetical.

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Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

I'm asking would his outcastness be better if it played to him bonding to the sibling, which is definitely a possibility in the book. I am asking a hypothetical.

I guess? I don’t really have a problem with Rlain in RoW, his outcastyness makes sense there, although it is blatantly the single aspect of his character that is focused on in that entire book. The reveal that he is also gay, and also going to be in a relationship with the other outcasty character, makes me think that this is all Brandon is going to focus on for him. 

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