Crazy Cosmere Theory - RoW & Mistborn Era 2

[Attentea]

Hello!

After reading Rhythm of War and thinking about the Cosmere as a whole, I came up with a crazy theory that had shocked me to the core, and I can't find anything that disproves this theory, so I want to share it here and get other's opinions of this. 

My theory has to do with Trell, who we learn the existance of in Mistborn Era 2, and connecting it with Stormlight Archive.

 

First, my theory is based on two assumptions:

1)  That Mistborn Era 2 takes place after the first 5 books of the Stormlight Archive.  I saw a fan made image on Instagram a while ago that showed this was the case.  Has new information changed this?  I haven't seen any updated timelines for the books. 

2)  That Dalian will loose in the upcoming battle against Odium and become a pawn of Todium (Taravangian with Odium's power).  

 

My theory is that Trell is Dalinar working on behalf of Todium.  

 

Pg 1193 of RoW "So Taravangian knew the cosmere was in chaos. Ruled by fools. Presides over by broken gods."    We see that Todium looks out into the Cosmere and sees all the corrupt leaders and the other shards/gods and sees that it needs to be made right.  Later on that page he says "and now, Taravangian was going to save them all."   Todium clearly has plans not only for Roshar, but for all of the cosmere to make things "right".  It sounds like he's going along the lines of Odium's original plan of being the only god and possibly bringing peace and security to the cosmere. 

Pg 385 of Shadows of Self  "The governor was planning to speak to the people of the city. Bleeder hadn't succeeded in killing him yet, and Wax suspected he knew why.  Because when she murdered him, she wanted an audience."   Here we see Bleeder, who is being used by Trell, trying to take out a major political leader on Scadrial. Clearly Trell wants the "corrupt" leaders killed in front of the public to try and win over the hearts and minds of the people to them. If Bleeder had succeeded there is likely more to Trell's plan to put a better leader in place. Perhaps even someone who is a minion of Trell who would bring the right sort of leadership to a major area of Scadrial. 

Pg 435 of Shadows of Self  (there are a few lines here I'm not going to quote them all) but it confirms that the metal is not one that Harmony knows.  So it is a metal from another world, from another god.   Let's call this metal Taravangium.  (Not Trellium, though it was Trell, aka Dalinar, who delivered this metal to Scadrial on behalf of Todium.) (formerly this metal was Raysium)

We also know (I don't have a quote for this) that shards can sense the presence of other shards.   If Odium was free of Roshar and working in the Scadrial system as Trell, Harmony would know.   But, we do know that powerful humans (and other beings) can operate on a planet without the shard noticing.   Pg 535 of RoW in the text at the start of the chapter (which we can assume is a letter from Harmony to Hoid)  "Regardless, please make yourself known to me when you travel my lands. It is distressing that you think you need to move in the shadows".   Dalinar, going by the name of Trell, powered by Odium, could come to Scadrial and work to recruit members to Todium's cause, and Harmony would not be able to detect him as long as he kept hidden.  

The final piece is from the Copppermind website, when looking up Trell, Sanderson has said that "Trell has been many things over the eons..." so why not use that name to sow some confusion. 

 

So there it is.  My theory that Trell is Dalinar, working on behalf of Todium to bring peace to the cosmere and take down all those corrupt leaders and gods.  Now what does this mean for the future of the cosmere...

[Roocifer]

I definitely think it's likely that Trell and Odium are somehow related. This theory is one good possibility (Dalinar loses and has to serve Odium, still wielding Honor's power).

I lean more towards the theory that Odium kills Cultivation in book 5 and takes her power and maybe takes Honor's too. We do have a WoB that Odium was afraid of Harmony. I bet he'd be less afraid with the power of 2-3 shards!

[Knight of Iron]

22 hours ago, Roocifer said:

I definitely think it's likely that Trell and Odium are somehow related. This theory is one good possibility (Dalinar loses and has to serve Odium, still wielding Honor's power).

I lean more towards the theory that Odium kills Cultivation in book 5 and takes her power and maybe takes Honor's too. We do have a WoB that Odium was afraid of Harmony. I bet he'd be less afraid with the power of 2-3 shards!

We have a WoB and now an in-world confirmation that Odium is not ever going to take up any new Shards. His whole plan for thousands of years from the beginning has been to Splinter all the other Shards so he remains the one true God. It doesn't matter whether or not he has 1 or 2 Shards, he still has access to practically infinite Investiture regardless.

[Roocifer]

17 minutes ago, Knight of Iron said:

We have a WoB and now an in-world confirmation that Odium is not ever going to take up any new Shards. His whole plan for thousands of years from the beginning has been to Splinter all the other Shards so he remains the one true God. It doesn't matter whether or not he has 1 or 2 Shards, he still has access to practically infinite Investiture regardless.

That WoB was before the events of RoW. I believe he was talking more about the vessel Rayse specifically. I suspect many things will change.

[Knight of Iron]

12 hours ago, Roocifer said:

That WoB was before the events of RoW. I believe he was talking more about the vessel Rayse specifically. I suspect many things will change.

Hmm. Yes, I forgot. I'll have to get used to this.

Still, I don't think it's necessary, as one Shard is really all you need. You don't necessarily get more power from two Shards. Especially when those Intents clash. You still have access to practically infinite Investiture.

[Frustration]

Trell is/was an actual person in White Sand long before Dalinar was even born.

I don't think Trell is Dalinar.

I look forward to seeing how this changes your theory.

[mathiau]

On 19/12/2020 at 0:21 PM, Knight of Iron said:

Hmm. Yes, I forgot. I'll have to get used to this.

Still, I don't think it's necessary, as one Shard is really all you need. You don't necessarily get more power from two Shards. Especially when those Intents clash. You still have access to practically infinite Investiture.

Honour and and Odium have proven their intent didn't clashed

On 19/12/2020 at 6:13 PM, Frustration said:

Trell is/was an actual person in White Sand long before Dalinar was even born.

I don't think Trell is Dalinar.

I look forward to seeing how this changes your theory.

And was considered a god before LR's rule. But as OP said he was a lot of different things so it may not be the same person now and then

Also @Attentea, I think your theory is wrong for a few reasons: Harmony said in RoW that some of the shards he didn't talk too (Autonomy was one of these iirc) were influencing Scadrial, Hoid said to Kel to fix his world and Sanderson originally intended for Mistborn era 2 to take place before tWoK

Edited December 22, 2020 by mathiau

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also @Attentea, I think your theory is wrong for a few reasons: Harmony said in RoW that some of the shards he didn't talk too (Ambition was one of these iirc) 

Ambition died millennia before Harmony's ascension.

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

And was considered a god before LR's rule. But as OP said he was a lot of different things so it may not be the same person now and then

Possibly, but I don't think so, it would just be confusing to the reader.

[mathiau]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Ambition died millennia before Harmony's ascension.

I meant Autonomy

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 12/19/2020 at 5:21 AM, Knight of Iron said:

Hmm. Yes, I forgot. I'll have to get used to this.

Still, I don't think it's necessary, as one Shard is really all you need. You don't necessarily get more power from two Shards. Especially when those Intents clash. You still have access to practically infinite Investiture.

I don't buy into this idea.  Infinity plus infinity is still infinity, but there are different levels of infinity.  More importantly, combining Shards might expand the abilities of the vessel.  Sazed completely altered Scadrial on almost every level after Ascending.  Rayse didn't want to take up other Shards because he didn't want their Intent to change his perception of his goals, not because they wouldn't make him more powerful.  I'm pretty certain that the right combination of Shards would yield incredible results.  Ambition + Odium + Ruin for example sounds pretty gnarly.

[Part of the One]

Some interesting, if conflicting info on the Coppermind related to this. First, Raysium and Trellium do not appear physically the same:

Raysium is a bright golden metal, so light it is almost white.

Trellium is a silvery metal with a red cast to it, and dark red spots similar to rust.

But also interesting to note, there are similar known properties of the two metals:

Raysium can naturally conduct Investiture, drawing it in from any source. This applies to all of the Lights, but also to spren - allowing someone to transfer spren between gemstones, including spren halves produced during the creation of pairing fabrial.

Trellium can steal Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities and grant them to kandra. Presumably its Hemalurgic ability is similar to that of Atium, allowing the transfer of any ability with somewhat variable success depending on the binding point. 

One can conduct investiture and cognitive entities, and the other, through hemalurgy, can transfer an individual's connection to investiture. Presumably it could also be used to spike out a nahel bond from a radiant in the same way, feasibly granting anyone with the right knowledge the same capability in that regard as Ishar and his ability to steal bonds. Or Dalinar as an unchained Bondsmith under Odium's direction.

This leaves open the possibility that Trellium is an alloy, perhaps of Raysium, with an existing metal or another god metal. Also (and I can't find the citation for this), Brandon has said that a new vessel carrying a shard could, over time, produce a god metal with different properties. It's possible that with T as the new vessel that after some time (not sure if MB era 2 is long enough after his ascension) that this could be the case.

[Stormlightning]

One reason I think this is unlikely (although definitely not impossible) is that the letters between Hoid and Harmony in RoW include Harmony becoming aware of how other Shards might invade or sneakily influence his system. Of course, they also discuss Odium at length. I feel like by the time Era 2 rolls around, Harmony has a good grasp on who Odium is and would be able to recognize that influence. But in BoM, he tells Wax that he doesn't know what the red haze pressing in on the system is.

We have no indication that he knows who Autonomy is, and considering that Hoid had to send a letter to First of the Sun to even think he had a chance of getting through to her, she's likely someone Harmony hasn't been able to get in contact with and who is actively cloaking her actions. So she still stands are the more likely culprit for "Trell" to me.

Like I said, none of this is by any means conclusive, and it's a tiny distinction, really. But I think that if Dalinar was responsible for Trell we'd have more recognizable indicators than we've got.

[Halyo_Alex]

Topics like this always amuse me because when this DOES get confirmed, we're gonna look back at all of these to see 1. Who called it and 2. Who was absolutely off-the-mark.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

31 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Topics like this always amuse me because when this DOES get confirmed, we're gonna look back at all of these to see 1. Who called it and 2. Who was absolutely off-the-mark.

Take a look at this thread from a few years ago

 

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Take a look at this thread from a few years ago

 

HAH! Nice...

[mathiau]

3 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Take a look at this thread from a few years ago

 

They seem to be using the term anti-investiture as if it meant investiture-proof tho

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

They seem to be using the term anti-investiture as if it meant investiture-proof tho

True, there's unsurprisingly a lot of misconceptions but that's part of what makes it fun, and I believe they do bring up Gavilar's sphere in there

[Part of the One]

2 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

One reason I think this is unlikely (although definitely not impossible) is that the letters between Hoid and Harmony in RoW include Harmony becoming aware of how other Shards might invade or sneakily influence his system. Of course, they also discuss Odium at length. I feel like by the time Era 2 rolls around, Harmony has a good grasp on who Odium is and would be able to recognize that influence. But in BoM, he tells Wax that he doesn't know what the red haze pressing in on the system is.

We have no indication that he knows who Autonomy is, and considering that Hoid had to send a letter to First of the Sun to even think he had a chance of getting through to her, she's likely someone Harmony hasn't been able to get in contact with and who is actively cloaking her actions. So she still stands are the more likely culprit for "Trell" to me.

Like I said, none of this is by any means conclusive, and it's a tiny distinction, really. But I think that if Dalinar was responsible for Trell we'd have more recognizable indicators than we've got.

I'm definitely in agreement that it's probably Autonomy, for these and other reasons. But I can't deny that this was a new and intriguing idea @Attentea proposed. And half the fun with the Cosmere is theorizing wacky stuff like this in lieu of any real knowledge.