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Dalinar Connecting with Nale


Bopushaq

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Hey guys it’s my first post here, so apologies if I mess something up. 
I was rereading certain parts of RoW, and during my reread of chapter 47 where Nale attacks Dalinar and he Connects with him, I noticed something weird. Dalinar sees 8 lines coming from Nale, which he assumes is the Oathpact. 
However right after, he says “only one line is broken,” that the rest are weak, and one line is “still vibrant.” This was super odd to me, first of all because I assumed that Dalinar only saw 8 lines because the 9th is Jezrien who’s soul is completely gone, but then he says he sees one line is completely broken, which I assume is Jezrien’s.
So why is there only 8 lines extending from Nale? Is there something Brandon is trying to hint here, or am I just misinterpreting what’s going on here? 

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7 hours ago, Proletariat said:

There are eight lines running from Nale, because there are now only nine in total and therefore each Herald would be connected to 8 others via the Oathpact. So Jezrien is gone, 7 of Nale's cohort are weak, one is hunky dory, and then there's Nale who is insane but otherwise intact I guess.

But why is one broken?

6 whole lines.

1 strong line (Taln).

1 broken line.

That’s the eight lines. Jezrian’s line isn’t there at all.

@Bopushaq I think the broken line is due to one of the Heralds having given themselves to Odium.  In committing treason they broke the Oathpact in its entirety. And I think this is Kalak, if only because it’d be an awesome twist.

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4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

@Bopushaq I think the broken line is due to one of the Heralds having given themselves to Odium.  In committing treason they broke the Oathpact in its entirety. And I think this is Kalak, if only because it’d be an awesome twist.

I really like this idea. I think it would be super ironic if the broken one ended up being Ishar, the bondsmith and the one that Ash says is the most sane. It would also lead to an epic Dalinar moment where he shows that his Connection with Honor is even greater than the honorblade nexf book if like Ishar cannot himself restore, but Dalinar can.

Perhaps this is a question we could ask Brandon for tomorrow, though it’s probably an instant RAFO. 

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3 minutes ago, Bopushaq said:

I really like this idea. I think it would be super ironic if the broken one ended up being Ishar, the bondsmith and the one that Ash says is the most sane. It would also lead to an epic Dalinar moment where he shows that his Connection with Honor is even greater than the honorblade nexf book if like Ishar cannot himself restore, but Dalinar can.

Perhaps this is a question we could ask Brandon for tomorrow, though it’s probably an instant RAFO. 

I actually thought Ishar was a traitor until this book. I now believe that he lacks the sanity to commit treason. Treason requires understanding of the act. Ishar is so far gone that he actually thinks he’s Honor. I don’t think he is cognizant enough to make the conscious, intentional choice to betray his oaths.

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14 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

I wonder what Batab is like and whether her willingness to work on the Diagram is consistent with treachery.

It could definitely be. But I don’t think we know enough of her for it to be a big deal. It needs to have weight, which leaves Nale, Jezrian, Ishar, Kalak, Taln and Ash.

Nale was eliminated, since he was still linked with the others. Taln is the strong line, so it’s isn’t him. Ishar is completely insane, so I doubt it’s him. Jezrian is dead. That leaves Kalak and Ash, either of which would be a very unexpected twist. And I think Kalak is more likely.

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2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It could definitely be. But I don’t think we know enough of her for it to be a big deal. It needs to have weight, which leaves Nale, Jezrian, Ishar, Kalak, Taln and Ash.

Nale was eliminated, since he was still linked with the others. Taln is the strong line, so it’s isn’t him. Ishar is completely insane, so I doubt it’s him. Jezrian is dead. That leaves Kalak and Ash, either of which would be a very unexpected twist. And I think Kalak is more likely.

I think Ash is far too in love with Taln to do something traitorous and distance herself from him, so Kalak might be the answer from process of elimination. Though I'm not sure what would constitute as treacherous enough for someone to fully lose Connection to the Oathpact, considering other Heralds have helped bring the Desolation in their own way and they're just weakening it. 

Also, I wonder if this Connection was severed over the millennia, or something happened at Aharietiam specifically to cause this. But once again, this should mean that the other Heralds all have broken Connections, not just weak ones. Classic Brandon giving us just enough but also no info to confuse us as much as possible.

Random side note I thought of at the end (this is probably super unlikely) but maybe Ash's Connection to the pact was through her father, and now since Jezrien is dead, she lost her Connection to the Oathpact too. 

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1 hour ago, Bopushaq said:

Perhaps this is a question we could ask Brandon for tomorrow, though it’s probably an instant RAFO. 

Explain. How do I meet the great one and ask a million questions?

 

Kalak, Ash, and B are the most likely, and I'm not sure Kalak seems to be a traitor, as said above, all the Heralds had some hand hastening the desolation, and Kalak just seems to want to escape. Ash does not seem to be the type to join Odium and seems surprised by Odium's plans and demoralized by them, so the most likely is probably is B, who the unknown one.

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13 minutes ago, Bopushaq said:

I think Ash is far too in love with Taln to do something traitorous and distance herself from him, so Kalak might be the answer from process of elimination. Though I'm not sure what would constitute as treacherous enough for someone to fully lose Connection to the Oathpact, considering other Heralds have helped bring the Desolation in their own way and they're just weakening it. 

Also, I wonder if this Connection was severed over the millennia, or something happened at Aharietiam specifically to cause this. But once again, this should mean that the other Heralds all have broken Connections, not just weak ones. Classic Brandon giving us just enough but also no info to confuse us as much as possible.

Random side note I thought of at the end (this is probably super unlikely) but maybe Ash's Connection to the pact was through her father, and now since Jezrien is dead, she lost her Connection to the Oathpact too. 

 

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Explain. How do I meet the great one and ask a million questions?

 

Kalak, Ash, and B are the most likely, and I'm not sure Kalak seems to be a traitor, as said above, all the Heralds had some hand hastening the desolation, and Kalak just seems to want to escape. Ash does not seem to be the type to join Odium and seems surprised by Odium's plans and demoralized by them, so the most likely is probably is B, who the unknown one.

It’s because Battar is so unknown that I find her unlikely. It won’t mean anything if it’s her.

Kalak’s organization was intentionally trying to return the Desolations, which is rather odd. And I don’t think our first mention of Restares - where he orders the deaths of Kaladin’s squad - is a coincidence. He was also our first viewpoint for a reason - and he was certain even then that Odium would be freed and was terrified of being tortured again. Oh, and Odium made it very clear that he can release a CS - exactly what Kalak wants. So I can definitely see him betraying everyone in exchange for a promise that he’ll be freed from Roshar.

On the other hand, I could see Ash betraying everyone too. It’s odd that she’s been so unhelpful over the past year. And she was deeply worn by her guilt. If Odium promised to never again hurt Taln in exchange for Ash finding a loophole or playing a role for him... Then her back half could end up being a redemption arc.

So I can definitely see it being either of these two. Both would be a crazy twist, but not one we couldn’t foresee, and both are in the perfect spot for a betrayal that could cause massive damage.

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5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

It’s because Battar is so unknown that I find her unlikely. It won’t mean anything if it’s her.

Kalak’s organization was intentionally trying to return the Desolations, which is rather odd. And I don’t think our first mention of Restares - where he orders the deaths of Kaladin’s squad - is a coincidence. He was also our first viewpoint for a reason - and he was certain even then that Odium would be freed and was terrified of being tortured again. Oh, and Odium made it very clear that he can release a CS - exactly what Kalak wants. So I can definitely see him betraying everyone in exchange for a promise that he’ll be freed from Roshar.

On the other hand, I could see Ash betraying everyone too. It’s odd that she’s been so unhelpful over the past year. And she was deeply worn by her guilt. If Odium promised to never again hurt Taln in exchange for Ash finding a loophole or playing a role for him... Then her back half could end up being a redemption arc.

So I can definitely see it being either of these two. Both would be a crazy twist, but not one we couldn’t foresee, and both are in the perfect spot for a betrayal that could cause massive damage.

I would disagree. Any Herald turned traitor would have a big impact. We haven't seen Kalak for that much longer, only Ash would be significantly more impactful. We know Battar has been planning something, and finding out she turned traitor would be quite shocking. You're also assuming the betrayal will be impactful, there are many ways for the betrayal to pay off. The ideas are good, but Battar seems the most likly.

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11 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Explain. How do I meet the great one and ask a million questions?

There's a livestream on his YouTube channel tomorrow, and he will allow any RoW or Dawnshard spoilers as questions. I'm not sure about the time or the method of asking questions, though. Maybe you have to donate? (but that seems very unlike Brandon). 

7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s because Battar is so unknown that I find her unlikely. It won’t mean anything if it’s her.

Kalak’s organization was intentionally trying to return the Desolations, which is rather odd. And I don’t think our first mention of Restares - where he orders the deaths of Kaladin’s squad - is a coincidence. He was also our first viewpoint for a reason - and he was certain even then that Odium would be freed and was terrified of being tortured again. Oh, and Odium made it very clear that he can release a CS - exactly what Kalak wants. So I can definitely see him betraying everyone in exchange for a promise that he’ll be freed from Roshar.

On the other hand, I could see Ash betraying everyone too. It’s odd that she’s been so unhelpful over the past year. And she was deeply worn by her guilt. If Odium promised to never again hurt Taln in exchange for Ash finding a loophole or playing a role for him... Then her back half could end up being a redemption arc.

So I can definitely see it being either of these two. Both would be a crazy twist, but not one we couldn’t foresee, and both are in the perfect spot for a betrayal that could cause massive damage.

I find it so weird that Kalak, in his insanity, would somehow spot Kaladin as a threat, but Nale, the Herald hunting radiants, would not be able to see the truth in front of him. Also, given what we saw of Kalak's insanity, he seems very passive, whereas Restares was clearly very active in trying to return Desolations. 

And about Ash, I feel that there isn't enough time in the next book for all of these events. Personally, I feel that the 10-day period until the Contest will only be be a small portion of the book, as I find it super weird that either Kaladin or Shallan could progress enough to swear an ideal within that time (would feel super cheap to me) or that Szeth could cleanse Shinovar within 10 days as well. Even if this book somehow spanned another like 6 months or something, though, I don't think there's enough time and enough previous development that Brandon would have this massive Herald betrayal in the middle, which leads me to think that this was something from the past. Maybe it could be revealed that one of the Heralds helped cause the Recreance, and this act (and maybe removing BAM and her Connection to Roshar) is that truly severed them from the Oathpact?

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2 minutes ago, Bopushaq said:

There's a livestream on his YouTube channel tomorrow, and he will allow any RoW or Dawnshard spoilers as questions. I'm not sure about the time or the method of asking questions, though. Maybe you have to donate? (but that seems very unlike Brandon). 

I find it so weird that Kalak, in his insanity, would somehow spot Kaladin as a threat, but Nale, the Herald hunting radiants, would not be able to see the truth in front of him. Also, given what we saw of Kalak's insanity, he seems very passive, whereas Restares was clearly very active in trying to return Desolations. 

And about Ash, I feel that there isn't enough time in the next book for all of these events. Personally, I feel that the 10-day period until the Contest will only be be a small portion of the book, as I find it super weird that either Kaladin or Shallan could progress enough to swear an ideal within that time (would feel super cheap to me) or that Szeth could cleanse Shinovar within 10 days as well. Even if this book somehow spanned another like 6 months or something, though, I don't think there's enough time and enough previous development that Brandon would have this massive Herald betrayal in the middle, which leads me to think that this was something from the past. Maybe it could be revealed that one of the Heralds helped cause the Recreance, and this act (and maybe removing BAM and her Connection to Roshar) is that truly severed them from the Oathpact?

Yeah, I'm expecting Dalinar to lose in the middle of the book like how uritheiru was taken. All the books took weeks, I can't even conceive how he will force all he needs in ten days without feeling rushed.

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3 minutes ago, Bopushaq said:

There's a livestream on his YouTube channel tomorrow, and he will allow any RoW or Dawnshard spoilers as questions. I'm not sure about the time or the method of asking questions, though. Maybe you have to donate? (but that seems very unlike Brandon). 

I find it so weird that Kalak, in his insanity, would somehow spot Kaladin as a threat, but Nale, the Herald hunting radiants, would not be able to see the truth in front of him. Also, given what we saw of Kalak's insanity, he seems very passive, whereas Restares was clearly very active in trying to return Desolations. 

And about Ash, I feel that there isn't enough time in the next book for all of these events. Personally, I feel that the 10-day period until the Contest will only be be a small portion of the book, as I find it super weird that either Kaladin or Shallan could progress enough to swear an ideal within that time (would feel super cheap to me) or that Szeth could cleanse Shinovar within 10 days as well. Even if this book somehow spanned another like 6 months or something, though, I don't think there's enough time and enough previous development that Brandon would have this massive Herald betrayal in the middle, which leads me to think that this was something from the past. Maybe it could be revealed that one of the Heralds helped cause the Recreance, and this act (and maybe removing BAM and her Connection to Roshar) is that truly severed them from the Oathpact?

Quite possibly. I don’t think the betrayal was recent, but occurred around the time Odium struck the fatal blow to Honor. But I do think one of those two is secretly working for Odium into the present.

I also think the contest will be over by the end of part two - maybe even part one! And I think the betrayal will come right around that time, when the traitor reveals him/herself to have been a double agent all along.

9 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I would disagree. Any Herald turned traitor would have a big impact. We haven't seen Kalak for that much longer, only Ash would be significantly more impactful. We know Battar has been planning something, and finding out she turned traitor would be quite shocking. You're also assuming the betrayal will be impactful, there are many ways for the betrayal to pay off. The ideas are good, but Battar seems the most likly.

We don’t know Battar. We’ve spent no time with her and we’ve had no viewpoints from her. We’ve barely even seen her influence.

In contrast, our FIRST viewpoint was Kalak’s. Restares influence via the SoH has been a consistent thread throughout all the books. First through Amaram, then through Kalak/Restares himself. So if Kalak turns out to be working for Odium it would have been very well foreshadowed.

We’ve just spent quite a bit of time with him, getting to know him. And we’ll spend more in the next book. We read his epigraphs and got his personal thoughts. He’s been presented to us in such a way that we’re quick to like and empathize him. At this point the only Herald we know more of is Nale. 

Kalak is definitely being set up for something. The question is what.

Ash I find the less likely precisely because we don’t know her well. The difference is that we WILL. If Ash turns out to be a traitor, it’ll be to set up her back-half arc. She’ll be a PoV there and get a flashback book, so she could be being set up for a redemption arc/narrative.

What little we do know of Ash does not lead us to view her as a potential traitor. Instead we see her as a half-mad, broken woman who feels tremendous guilt at abandoning the man she loves - a man who doesn’t even have the decency to blame her for doing so! If Ash is a traitor, she is a regretful one.

Unlike Kalak, we DO know what Ash is being set up for. The back-half.

It’s also only just now hit me that the SoH are directly involved in all major characters plots. Gavilar was part of the SoH and his death spurred Dalinar’s plot. And Eshonai had him killed using Szeth because Gavilar - and the SoH - wanted to return the Desolations. Amaram was part of the SoH and he began Kaladin’s story by killing the squad under Kalak’s orders. After Kaladin killed Shallan’s brother, who was seemingly there to kill Amaram. Shallan has been tracking the SoH for the Ghostbloods for three books. The SoH have been antagonists/driving forces from the beginning. I highly doubt that’s coincidental.

Although I also think our last PoV will be Kalak’s. He began the Stormlight Archive. Maybe it’s all these keteks, but it feels right that he should finish it.

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I really like the points you made about the SoH @Kingsdaughter613, but I find it really hard to believe Kalak is a traitor. The biggest piece of evidence is the epigraph where he mocks the Fused for only now realizing they can trap Heralds in a gemstone (after 7000 years). Assuming the betrayal isn’t recent, I feel that Kalak would’ve shared this information with Odium in exchange for protection from such if he really was a traitor. 
 

I think we’re going about this broken thing the wrong way. Although it seems super reasonable for the Heralds to completely break and surrender to Odium in exchange for release from their torture, we don’t really know the exact details of the Oathpact, and perhaps there’s something else there that caused a Herald to break off when the others are still loosely Connected. 

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54 minutes ago, Bopushaq said:

I really like the points you made about the SoH @Kingsdaughter613, but I find it really hard to believe Kalak is a traitor. The biggest piece of evidence is the epigraph where he mocks the Fused for only now realizing they can trap Heralds in a gemstone (after 7000 years). Assuming the betrayal isn’t recent, I feel that Kalak would’ve shared this information with Odium in exchange for protection from such if he really was a traitor. 
 

I think we’re going about this broken thing the wrong way. Although it seems super reasonable for the Heralds to completely break and surrender to Odium in exchange for release from their torture, we don’t really know the exact details of the Oathpact, and perhaps there’s something else there that caused a Herald to break off when the others are still loosely Connected. 

I’m of the opinion Kalak designed the dagger. 

He knew exactly how it worked - and that the intention was to capture Jezrian. None of the other Heralds knew that; they assumed the intention was to kill Jezrian and they had no idea how it had happened. Kalak, hidden away in Lasting Integrity knew how it happened, the weapon used, what the intention was, and why it went wrong.

Strangely, he was missing the one piece of information every other Herald appears to have had - the party responsible. I find it unlikely that Kalak knew all of the above without knowing the responsible party. Which raises a new question: was a Kalak lying? And if so, why?
 

I do think one of the Heralds is a traitor. Sense tells me it’s one of the five we’ve had some dealings with, and also one of the five that represents the first-half orders. Process of elimination tells me that it’s either Ash or Kalak.

Kalak also gives us some poetry in being the reverse of Venli; she move from Odium to Honor while he would have done the opposite. We could get this with Ash too though; her own hidden sins coming to light as Shallan’s are. Also, both Ash and Kalak have a major character named for them: Shallan for Shalash and Kaladin for Kalak. And both Heralds have perfectly symmetrical names.

Although I actually thought it was Ishar until we saw how insane he was. Now I’m thinking he was a red herring, but I’m going to watch him closely anyway.

 

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59 minutes ago, gremlin303 said:

I think it is just worded weirdly. I got the impression that Dalinar was leaving out the broken Jezrien line from his count of 8. So 7 weak lines for the rest of the heralds bar Nale, Jezrien and Taln, and then the strong line for Taln (because he never broke)

We should ask. Because this exactly the kind of subtle hint Brandon would use, but it could be a mistake. (I miss Moshe.) Maybe put it in the typos thread and see if we get answered?

Edit: I added it to the typos thread. I’ll also put the quotes here; I don’t think it’s an error.

“Dalinar stepped forward, walking among his stunnedbodyguards, noting eight lines of light extending from Nale into the distance.”

A few sentences later:

“No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.”

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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4 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’m of the opinion Kalak designed the dagger. 

He knew exactly how it worked - and that the intention was to capture Jezrian. None of the other Heralds knew that; they assumed the intention was to kill Jezrian and they had no idea how it had happened. Kalak, hidden away in Lasting Integrity knew how it happened, the weapon used, what the intention was, and why it went wrong.

Strangely, he was missing the one piece of information every other Herald appears to have had - the party responsible. I find it unlikely that Kalak knew all of the above without knowing the responsible party. Which raises a new question: was a Kalak lying? And if so, why?

So I just reread some parts of RoW that seemed relevant, and I found one piece of evidence that supports that Kalak is a traitor and one that refutes it. 
 

For Kalak being a traitor, in chapter 115 Shallan tells Mraize that Kalak “would do practically anything to escape that fate” of Odium torturing the Heralds again, and perhaps he had bargained Odium for the final step to leave. Maybe his Connection to the Oathpact was keeping him here, and forcibly breaking it is allowing him to escape (he says he thinks he’s close to finding a way off-world). This also might tie to what he and Gavilar were doing in moving Investiture off-world as seen in the prologue.

However there’s some evidence against that in chapter 79, in Kalak’s epigraph. He says “the Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent.” Unless he’s lying here, it seems he can also sense the lines that Dalinar saw extending from Nale. Weirdly though, he doesn’t mention that one is broken, so perhaps this is him lying. 
 

Just some food for thought. 

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29 minutes ago, Bopushaq said:

So I just reread some parts of RoW that seemed relevant, and I found one piece of evidence that supports that Kalak is a traitor and one that refutes it. 
 

For Kalak being a traitor, in chapter 115 Shallan tells Mraize that Kalak “would do practically anything to escape that fate” of Odium torturing the Heralds again, and perhaps he had bargained Odium for the final step to leave. Maybe his Connection to the Oathpact was keeping him here, and forcibly breaking it is allowing him to escape (he says he thinks he’s close to finding a way off-world). This also might tie to what he and Gavilar were doing in moving Investiture off-world as seen in the prologue.

However there’s some evidence against that in chapter 79, in Kalak’s epigraph. He says “the Oathpact was broken already, but the Connection remained. Each of us can sense the others, to an extent.” Unless he’s lying here, it seems he can also sense the lines that Dalinar saw extending from Nale. Weirdly though, he doesn’t mention that one is broken, so perhaps this is him lying. 
 

Just some food for thought. 

Dalinar says he can see the Oathpact, with one line broken. I don’t think he was seeing the Connection between the Heralds. 
 

And just to note:  

CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

I generally take everything Heralds say with a pound of salt.

Something else I noticed: Kaladin and Szeth are going to Shin-Kak-Nish. Kak - 8 is the number associated with Kalak. There is something going on with this character.

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20 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But why is one broken?

6 whole lines.

1 strong line (Taln).

1 broken line.

That’s the eight lines. Jezrian’s line isn’t there at all.

@Bopushaq I think the broken line is due to one of the Heralds having given themselves to Odium.  In committing treason they broke the Oathpact in its entirety. And I think this is Kalak, if only because it’d be an awesome twist.

I interpreted "only one line of it is completely broken" as meaning the line was completely severed and gone, which would be Jezrien's nonexistent line.

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10 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I interpreted "only one line of it is completely broken" as meaning the line was completely severed and gone, which would be Jezrien's nonexistent line.

Me too. Like, Dalinar saw 8 lines, one intact (Taln) and 7 weak, and realized “there should be 9 visible, but there are only eight, so only one is actually broken.”

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On 12/16/2020 at 5:50 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But why is one broken?

6 whole lines.

1 strong line (Taln).

1 broken line.

That’s the eight lines. Jezrian’s line isn’t there at all.

@Bopushaq I think the broken line is due to one of the Heralds having given themselves to Odium.  In committing treason they broke the Oathpact in its entirety. And I think this is Kalak, if only because it’d be an awesome twist.

“No, only one line of it is completely broken. The rest are there, but weak, impotent.” Dalinar pointed to one line, bright and powerful. “Except one. Still vibrant.”

I had a theory a while ago that Taln was betrayed by one of the Heralds and killed after the last Desolation.  Someone knew that one Herald in Braize would be enough to hold the Oathpact together, and all of the Heralds knew that Taln was never the one that broke.  He bore the torture for 4000 years, alone.  I have another theory that Taln did, in fact, NOT break before returning to Roshar at the end of WoK, but was sent back against his will, but that's another topic.

 

I think the broken line has to do with that betrayal.  Who it is, I don't know.  But by this theory, it couldn't be Kalak, considering that we see his perspective in the prelude where he doesn't even know Taln is dead at the start.  It could be a Herald we haven't seen yet, it could be Ishar, as he clearly knew the most about how the Oathpact operated, but I just don't know.  

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We also have that mysterious line from the Diagram: "One is almost certainly a traitor to the rest."  I had thought that referenced sja-anat, but I am now reconsidering this.

I have two thoughts around the broken line: 1. There is a traitor among the Heralds.  2. One of the Heralds has been so worn down by torture that they have broken beyond the ability to be fixed.  3. One of the Heralds has been able to sever their Connection to Roshar and flee.

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