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What happened exactly to Hoid's memory?


Lightning

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  • 4 weeks later...

There are many theories, but the fact that Wit was presented as terrified implies he had not expected this to happen and he was not prepared for it in any way.

I as well do not understand why Wit would choose to show himself to Odium, there's nothing to be gained by boasting at this time.

Furthermore, while the initial contract included Wit protection, i dont recall the final contract protecting him in any way, so why risk facing Odium now? He was so certain of having him bested he couldn't wait 10 days? It sounds ridiculous.

More thoughts: why the story in the end and the talk about misdirection? They can't be just randomly placed in the book? Even if someone could take them as a forshadowing of his failure, it doesn't fit with how he was bested.

The clearest way i could interpret this moment (and the previous ones with Todium) is that it serves to highlight how dangerous the new Odium is.

Finally - and not really relevant - how can the god of passions not have the king of passions, love while representing its opposite, hatred?

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2 hours ago, Harris said:

Finally - and not really relevant - how can the god of passions not have the king of passions, love while representing its opposite, hatred?

Tbf, the description Dalinar gives of Odium does include that.

Quote

It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield.

It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy.

It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory.

And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt.

But Odium isn't just passion. He's specifically "the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound." So hate's still the largest part of it by far.

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My thought of why Todium could inflict harm on Hoid: Hoid no longer fits the contract he and the other shards/Dawnshards agreed to, because he no longer has a Dawnshard.

 

He maybe was keeping it a secret so none of the shards thought that they could harm him. But Todium being Todium decided to test that a little, and he could mess with Hoid, but thinks he got away with it because he thought he was clever, while really Hoid is no longer protected.

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29 minutes ago, apepi said:

My thought of why Todium could inflict harm on Hoid: Hoid no longer fits the contract he and the other shards/Dawnshards agreed to, because he no longer has a Dawnshard.

 

He maybe was keeping it a secret so none of the shards thought that they could harm him. But Todium being Todium decided to test that a little, and he could mess with Hoid, but thinks he got away with it because he thought he was clever, while really Hoid is no longer protected.

He specifically said, he didn't see removing the breath as harm.

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1 hour ago, apepi said:

He didn't think it would harm, but that doesn't mean that is what allowed him to do it.

 

Quote

Let me see … I cannot harm you. But here, you have used this other Investiture to store your memories, haven’t you? Because you’ve lived longer than a mortal should, you need to put the excess memories somewhere. I can’t see your mind, but I can see these, can’t I?

For the first time in a long, long while, Wit felt true terror. If Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories …

I don’t believe this will cause you actual harm … Odium said. Yes, it seems my predecessor’s agreements will allow me to—

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  • 1 month later...

The intro about misdirection really makes me think Hoid anticipated the meeting and figured something was about to go down. I mean, he had been concealing himself from Odium and certainly knew that Odium would immediately appear once he decided to lower his efforts at concealment.

He absolutely had to know that Odium would try to harm him in some way (I mean, Rayse hates him and would try and do anything in his power to harm him), perhaps through some kind of an attack on some of his investiture, which is why he stored some of his breaths in that doll he Awakened in Oathbringer. 

However, even anticipating some kind of attack, it still makes sense that Hoid would feel fear because he had to lower his defenses, subjecting himself to the aggression of a literal god.

Edited by Voidbringer
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On 1/21/2021 at 9:43 PM, StanLemon said:

As with many in universe beliefs regarding the limits of magic systems, the belief that Breaths can't be forcibly taken may very well be wrong. I'm almost positive Hemalurgy could be used to take them for instance. Also, for a Shard it might be trivial to remove Breaths.

And we know that nightblood can forcefully take breaths. I totally buy that a Shard could do it

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On 4/11/2021 at 2:25 PM, StanLemon said:

Breaths may not be part of a persons Spiritweb but they are still stuck to it like a Spren with a Bond

Eh... maybe. From the sound of most WoBs, they're mostly just Physical gaseous Investiture like Stormlight or the mists — which raises the question of what the heck all the "it's part of your soul" things in the annotations were talking about, since everything since then seems to contradict that idea.

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35 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Eh... maybe. From the sound of most WoBs, they're mostly just Physical gaseous Investiture like Stormlight or the mists — which raises the question of what the heck all the "it's part of your soul" things in the annotations were talking about, since everything since then seems to contradict that idea.

Which is all the more confusing considering these WoB which further implies they are Connected to the soul

Quote

Yata

If a person with Breath (let's say 100 Breaths) dies. After a while (let's say a hour), are the Breaths still in the corpse ? If yes, are those destined for the same fate as an object with Breath inside ?

If a Returned dies for mundane ways (let's say a dagger in the back) and therefore he has still his Divine Breath.Would the Divine Breath keep the CS stampled to the corpse until he run out of fuel/Investiture ? (Like a Ghost in the CS anchored to his corpse until the Breath lasts)

Brandon Sanderson

Breaths in a dying person usually escape with the soul.

Quote

Yata

When someone dies on Nalthis, their Breaths: go away with the soul, or remain in the corpse?

Brandon Sanderson

Breaths return to Endowment.

Yata

Together with the soul? Or remain in the corpse?

Brandon Sanderson

The soul--

Yata

Passes away?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, unless it turns into a Cognitive Shadow. Then, the soul goes into the Beyond. And so the actual essence of the soul, the Investiture of it, does return to Endowment.

 

 

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2 points I would like to point out in this discussion.

1) WoB are not cannon, he reserves the right to change things.  But he did say after WoR was published that Todium did not read the memories by removed them.

2) The second time around a coin was missing and IMHO this is where Hoid was storing his recent memories, using a known technique of Breaths to do so.  Thus, how he noticed their was something different.  Also, remember Hoid can store his breaths/memories in something and keep them safe somewhere else.  I believe this is how he was on the boarder of pitch purfect.

My guess is Hoid was trying to find out if the vessel of Odium had changed, which is why he was willing to confront Odium.  Todium realized Hoid figured out Rayse was no longer the vessel, after he excised the memories, and thus needed to turn back time to try again.  The second time went as Todium expected, from his point of view.  I also think Hoid is figuring out that his memories where stolen and this is not something Rayse would do. 

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My guess is Hoid was trying to find out if the vessel of Odium had changed, which is why he was willing to confront Odium.  

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Why would he have even the slightest reason to believe this?

2 possible reasons, Fortune lead him to this conclusion or as connected to other vessels and worldhoppers he does have a lot of connections.  The biggest clue is that in the first go around he does state that the encounter went as he expected.  He has been avoiding Odium for a long time and why else would he confront Odium at this time, just to gloat?  I really doubt Hoid would risk his life to just gloat and tease one of the most dangerous beings in the Cosmere.

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On 3/4/2021 at 6:11 PM, Harris said:

There are many theories, but the fact that Wit was presented as terrified implies he had not expected this to happen and he was not prepared for it in any way.

It is possible to expect something to happen, to be prepared for it, and also be terrified when it does.  Anyone who has ever experienced military combat will verify this.

I think Hoid's conversation with Design makes it clear what his goal is - misdirection.  He is intentionally attracting Odium's full attention so someone else can accomplish something without being noticed.  Who and what will be revealed in the next novel... and I predict it will be awesome.

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22 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

Fortune lead him to this conclusion

Fortune doesn't seem to give him knowledge or lead him to conclusions, as far as we know. Just where to be.

22 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

The biggest clue is that in the first go around he does state that the encounter went as he expected. 

 

Quote

Wit cocked his head. There was something odd about this change in tone from Odium. Asking whom Wit would choose? Rayse wouldn’t care to know.

Never mind, Odium said quickly. It matters not. Whomever I pick, they will destroy Dalinar’s champion! Then I will use him, and my minions on this planet, to finally do whatever I wish!

“Yes, but where will you find that many willing horses…” Wit said, continuing on his way out the door. He started whistling as Odium’s presence remained behind. That had gone exactly as he’d imagined. Except that last part. He slowed, turning the words over in his mind.

Was Rayse growing more thoughtful? Wit didn’t need to worry, did he? After all this, Odium would be safely imprisoned, no matter what happened. There was no way out.…

Unless …

Wit’s breath caught, but then he forced himself to keep whistling and walking.

He guesses it might not be Rayse, but is surprised by that, and it was because of the one part that was not what he expected.

24 minutes ago, hskeeter said:

He has been avoiding Odium for a long time and why else would he confront Odium at this time, just to gloat?  I really doubt Hoid would risk his life to just gloat and tease one of the most dangerous beings in the Cosmere.

Except that (theoretically) he's safe from him now. Presumably Rayse didn't fiddle around with loopholes in deals as much as T.

I do personally think he had an ulterior motive (specifically, I like the idea he was distracting Odium so Design could meet with someone, probably Sja-anat), but I don't think showing up to gloat that he's beaten his millennia-long rival is very out-of-character for him if that was it.

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I think that the encounter -did- go as Wit planned it, even though he lost some Breaths in exchange. (It's something he could quite easily figure out regardless after the fact, and that would once again tip him about a change in Odium.) He gained a lot of information, and presumably whatever else Design or somebody else was doing while Odium's full attention was on Wit.

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/6/2021 at 10:45 PM, Leuthie said:

From WOB, the only thing Taravangian did was remove the memory of the previous conversation where Wit figured out that Odium was no longer held by Rayse. He did this a bit clumsily, as Wit remembered several things that would provide evidence that memories were removed. Judging by the lack of perfect pitch at the end, Hoid was carrying just enough Breath to have perfect pitch. Brandon confirmed that TOdium didn't read any memories.

So it's just an interesting exchange between two of the most powerful entities in the Cosmere, one brand new and the other very very old.

 

@Leuthie Sorry for reviving a super old thread, but do you know the source of the WoB that confirms that Hoid only lost the memories from the recent conversation? 

 

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12 minutes ago, secar8 said:

 

@Leuthie Sorry for reviving a super old thread, but do you know the source of the WoB that confirms that Hoid only lost the memories from the recent conversation? 

 

this thread wasn't even dead for three months you're fine

and this is probably what they where referencing

Spoiler

Katelyn Gigante

After the epilogue, when Odium took Hoid's memories, did he gain them or just remove them?

Brandon Sanderson

He removed them, he did not gain them. He excised them, he performed a little surgery on the Breaths. You have seen this happen before in the books, though I will not give spoilers to another book. It happened on a different world.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

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