Popular Post G2F4E6E7E8 Posted December 15, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 (edited) I posted a theory in the stormlight subreddit some weeks ago. I've discovered this forum since then and realized that it is a much more appropriate place for long theorizing. I'll therefore post the theory here too if that's ok. While reading the Navani/Raboniel chapters, I was shocked to see what sounded like a really good analogy to a fundamental concept in higher-level math and physics that usually does not get good popular-science explanations. I don't know if this was just a coincidence that I'm reading too much into or if someone in Brandon Sanderson's orbit learned the concept somewhere. Either way, I had to make an account to write about this. Field Theory: This section is going to be pop-science, so every detail is going to be a lie. However, the overall ideas and intuitions should be correct. Modern physics theories think of the universe as a made up of a bunch of things called fields. A field can be thought of as a bunch of abstract waves that permeate space. Physicists then apply some standard mathematical concepts for studying waves and eventually derive all the normal particles and laws that we hear about. To go further, let's discuss two intuitive and familiar versions of waves: light and sound. The first step when studying a wave it to break it up into a combination of basic, "pure waves" that, when combined in the right proportions, can make up any sound or color. For sound, these are the pure tones and for light, these are pure colors that a prism breaks it into. The list of pure waves depends only on particular symmetries that the field satisfies. For light and sound the pure waves are sine waves which behave very nicely when translated around (slightly more precisely for those who know, they satisfy the angle-addition formulas from high school trigonometry). Translation symmetry is important because that's the symmetry satisfied by the laws sound and light waves follow. The more complicated fields in physics satisfy more complicated symmetries. For example, rotational symmetry gives you "pure tones" that look like the electron orbital pictures you might see in chemistry class. Mathematicians call these generalized pure tones "irreducible representations". Just like breaking up sound into pure tones gives you the notes that make up everything sound-wise, breaking up the more complicated physics fields into irreducible representations give you the pieces of the universe that make up everything---all the fundamental particles: electrons, quarks, etc. While you don't need so many fancy words to just talk about the concept of decomposing into pure tones, field theory suggests that this is the fundamental idea needed to understand reality. The Fantasy Version: Investiture: In the real world, this analogy between sound/light and the physics fields that make up the universe is just that, nothing more than an analogy. However, something with Intent seems to make it much more than that with investiture in the Cosmere. Navani's chapters suggest that Investiture breaks up into different "pure tones" corresponding to different shards. Instead of just being complicated irreducible representations of the symmetries of some "investiture field", they also correspond to analogous and much more intuitive things: literal tones/rhythms or colors. Somehow, having the right Intent when creating the corresponding literal sound tone turns it into the correct tone of investiture. It lets you turn "base-state" investiture into investiture of the type you want. Because she was born on Roshar, Navani had been hearing the tones of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium her whole life and knew them almost from memory, so this was possible for her to do. Some Wild Speculation: Now, here's some wild theorizing if thinking about investiture in this way is actually correct. First, you should be able to use light instead of sound to imprint an investiture type onto base-state investiture. Light is another human-intuitive form of decomposing a wave into pure tones so it should work similarly if you have the right Intent. However, making pure colors is harder than pure sounds and might require a laser or something similar. Much more interestingly, you should not be restricted to tones you know from memory. In real physics, the "tones" correspond to irreducible representations of the symmetries of the field. If you know the symmetries, it's not too difficult for modern, Earth mathematics to enumerate and describe all the irreducible representations. It should therefore be possible for scholars on Roshar to mathematically derive all the rhythms, tones, and colors for all the other shards. In total, they would then be able to create, for example, devotion-light or ambition-light without having heard the tones for devotion or ambition before. Maybe Connecting(?) light to other shards in this way is the method for moving it off Roshar. As one possible path to this, the equations stormwardens use to predict highstorms should have something to do with Honor's "pure tone"/irreducible representation. As anyone who's worked with difficult equations knows, the best tricks for dealing with them involve finding hidden symmetries, so I think the stormwardens might already know some. These hidden symmetries would be the symmetries of the "investiture field". Some stormwarden might, just out of curiosity, decide to figure out which other equations satisfy these hidden symmetries and suddenly discover the patterns governing other shards. This same type of story has played out a lot in the history of real-world math. Finally, this might give some insight into how Adonalsium was shattered. A good analogy might be splitting light into its pure colors by sending it through a prism. I'm going to run into an issue here of having lied in the pop-science section, but in some sense (that's an even worse lie), light in a vacuum has some extra symmetries that make all frequencies the same. In a prism, this symmetry is ruined and different frequencies travel at different speeds, separating them out. Maybe Adonalsium was shattered in a similar way: put into some medium where some symmetry of investiture was broken and then refracted into all the shards. Why RoW is amazing science fiction This fundamental idea--breaking up waves into pure tones--is something that I really don't see that much in even popular science, no matter how important it is to actual physics. Imagine then my shock then when the first mass media I see it in is, of all things, an ostensibly fantasy novel. It's not just a side-note; it's a critical piece of the magic system that I can use above to build wild theories involving real science concepts. This is what science fiction should be: deep concepts and ideas, not just the superficial trappings of the genre, like robots and spaceships or whatever. It is the pure opposite of technobabble. I didn't even talk here about how Navani's chapters present a more accurate view of what it feels like to work on a science problem than anything I've read before. She sees some strange phenomena that confuse her: the voidsphere explosion and the Thaylen guild's fabrial methods. She thinks deeply about all the implications of what they must mean. She then puts together some simple ideas derived from those in complicated ways, experiments with them, and figures out something amazing. This is what science is at its most basic level. Edited December 15, 2020 by G2F4E6E7E8 31 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmere nerd Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Yes!!! The sci-fi elements of RoW are why this *might* be my favorite SA book so far. The way BS used real scientific theories and methods in a fantasy setting was amazing. When Navani was first thinking about light and examining it as a liquid, I kept thinking about wave-particle duality. I know it’s not quite the same thing, but the way she was describing it was very similar. And her use of the scientific method was fantastic. Your “wild speculation” is a really interesting idea. I think there’s a lot of potential for Intent to work well with the scientific method, and Rosharan scholars (Navani specifically) will most likely make some huge scientific discoveries through this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Okay, the Stormwarden part blew my mind. And it fits too! That knowledge must've been how the high-level Sons of Honor managed to create anti-Voidlight. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendshipspren Posted December 15, 2020 Report Share Posted December 15, 2020 Wow that's beautiful. I know a bit about field theory from Arvin Ash's YouTube channel. I like how Sanderson is playing this out. Ok ok. Minor mistborn era 1 spoilers Spoiler Huh so ....wait could u transform stormlight into Leras-light or Ati-light and then use it to fuel allomancy ?? I understand the metal is simply the catalyst and the filter which is consumed while opening a gateway to the spiritual realm allowing access to investiture. But perhaps if the investiture is Leras-light found in the physical realm then it could make the metal just a filter . No need for it to open a gateway and be consumed ?? So you could use a metal bead to filter it into granting u a specific power , steel for pushing, tin for senses . That's not all too revolutionary but suppose you had a bead of atium and some Leras-light or Ati-light , then perhaps u could be a Seer and be gifted with precognition for atleast a very long time with a single bead of atium ?? Marsh still has some atium beads , there could be others that are lost but can be found. Well I don't see how useful atium would be in a world of bullets rather than arrows or fists but still heck idk it could be of some use. Also u might also love this tidbit. Moderate TFE spoilers. Just the first book Spoiler Sanderson said in a wob that the feruchemical process of" Skimming " , storing weight in ironminds , works by interfering with the Higgs field ,that I understand is responsible for granting mass to all particles, except gauge bosons. Sanderson originally had it be due to interfering with the acceleration due to gravity (g) I think but that was over a flawed understanding of the law of conservation of momentum so he later retconned it to the Higgs field. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G2F4E6E7E8 Posted December 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 14 hours ago, Friendshipspren said: Ok ok. Minor mistborn era 1 spoilers Hide contents Huh so ....wait could u transform stormlight into Leras-light or Ati-light and then use it to fuel allomancy ?? I understand the metal is simply the catalyst and the filter which is consumed while opening a gateway to the spiritual realm allowing access to investiture. But perhaps if the investiture is Leras-light found in the physical realm then it could make the metal just a filter . No need for it to open a gateway and be consumed ?? So you could use a metal bead to filter it into granting u a specific power , steel for pushing, tin for senses . That's not all too revolutionary but suppose you had a bead of atium and some Leras-light or Ati-light , then perhaps u could be a Seer and be gifted with precognition for atleast a very long time with a single bead of atium ?? Marsh still has some atium beads , there could be others that are lost but can be found. Well I don't see how useful atium would be in a world of bullets rather than arrows or fists but still heck idk it could be of some use. Oh wow, this sounds super plausible. However, Awakening similarly seems to use color as a filter/catalyst and does use it up even when there's an another source of investiture in breath. Maybe it sometimes takes investiture to move investiture (like a refrigerator needs to use energy to move heat energy)? On the other hand, this same sort of filtering seems to happen with gemstones in fabrials without using up the color, so I'm a bit confused on what the general principle is. If you like the physics analogies, this field theory perspective maybe clarifies what's going on with anti-investiture also. In real-world physics, there's an electron field (that I guess you hope to find as some component of a larger field in some hypothetical grand unified theory) and electrons are a certain kind of wave traveling through it. However, the equations governing the field allow waves traveling in the "opposite" direction (there's a technical sense in which "opposite" means "backwards in time", but this creates very misleading and overly dramatic associations---it is only true in a very specific technical sense) that turn out to be anti-electrons, or positrons. Similarly anti-whatever-light is would come from the same field piece as whatever-light. It is just "inverted" or "traveling in an opposite direction" and the precise details of how this is set up are worked out automatically by the magic system as long as you have the right Intent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightdancer Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 I really love this. I dabble in theoretical physics, and it blows my mind when Brandon includes details that were obviously inspired by it. I loved how deep Navani's POV went into the mechanics of real science and the cosmere-version. No deep insights, but I really loved this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendshipspren Posted December 16, 2020 Report Share Posted December 16, 2020 @G2F4E6E7E8 yeah I thought of anti light as analogous to anti matter. My understanding of all this is patchy. I have a very vague idea of CPT symmetry and such, but I know that antimatter is just charge inverted matter. Positive electrons , negative protons. I have little idea about time inversion in electrons . The closest I understood it was the ' One electron theory ' which has been debunked I think. Do you think stormlight , etc actually is a stream of photons or do u feel they are some sort of ' new ' elementary particles with mass ? It would make more sense if they were non gauge bosons I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G2F4E6E7E8 Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) @Friendshipspren I think "backwards in time" brings up a lot of associations that aren't correct. It's only true in a very narrow sense as described here. As an very simplified analogy, if an electron is represented by a wave like sin(x - vt), a positron would be something like sin(x + vt). There's a change of sign in an equation that you can interpret in many different ways, but the english words people attach to the interpretations---"one electron" or "backwards in time"---tend to connote things that are way stronger than what the equations say. I think investiture and the various lights is some sort of new thing where, importantly, it may not matter what the really technical physics details are. In the real world, when we have a popular-science discussion like this, everything we say can only be an analogy not at all approaching any true description. However, something magical in Intent makes these actually relevant in the Investiture case. You can actually manipulate Investiture playing around with pop-science analogies like sound tones and light colors without having to deal with any complicated physics. Some part of the magic system latches onto your Intent and does the translation for you. Ok, now for some more wild speculation: it could be possible that as you understand more about the actual physics, you get more Connection to a more powerful "language" that you can use to state you Intent and make more precise Commands. We know that magic like Awakening requires you to speak a Command in your native language. Maybe knowing more math/physics concepts would be like adding "words" to this language---if you understand what a gauge boson is, you might be able to use analogies related to them to manipulate investiture. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the focus should be more on what physics analogies we can match to Investiture phenomena instead of what exactly Investiture is at the really technical physics level. I guess my return question then would be what would it mean for the magic if the various lights analogized to a gauge boson instead of something else? (I don't know enough to speculate here as you can see by the edits to fix the physics details). Edited December 17, 2020 by G2F4E6E7E8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Friendshipspren Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) @G2F4E6E7E8 huh , kinda like u have to study or atleast watch YouTube , to get better at it lol. I thought deep studies or understanding of magic would be required only by Selish magic systems. But seems other systems need it too. Perhaps even the spiritual metals in feruchemy. Noice *Thrist for mistborn era 3 intensifies. ________ On 12/15/2020 at 1:24 PM, Honorless said: Okay, the Stormwarden part blew my mind. And it fits too! That knowledge must've been how the high-level Sons of Honor managed to create anti-Voidlight. Yeah that is an awesome possiblity. Hmm I wonder if Navani or Jasnah or perhaps Huio will wonder about how they can predict highstorms with only math and no Spren or anything to guide them . Or if they will try to understand how gavilar found it and find the stormwarden equations. Or perhaps Renarin and others becoming Knights Prescient will make them stop hiding in mysticism and cold forward to do thier part in the scientific revolution. But wait I think , yeah Lirin knows the math to predict highstorms too. Quote Tvlakv had almost missed getting ready for this highstorm. Apparently, the map Kaladin had torn up had also included a list of highstorm dates purchased from a roving stormwarden. The storms could be predicted mathematically; Kaladin’s father had made a hobby of it. He’d been able to pick the right day eight times out of ten. Huh. Let's see. Also @G2F4E6E7E8 is there any significance behind ur name ? Edited December 17, 2020 by Friendshipspren 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theTruthshaper Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 10 hours ago, G2F4E6E7E8 said: @Friendshipspren I think "backwards in time" brings up a lot of associations that aren't correct. It's only true in a very narrow sense as described here. As an very simplified analogy, if an electron is represented by a wave like sin(x - vt), a positron would be something like sin(x + vt). There's a change of sign in an equation that you can interpret in many different ways, but the english words people attach to the interpretations---"one electron" or "backwards in time"---tend to connote things that are way stronger than what the equations say. As far as I know about waves, this is incorrect. Changing the sign of vt simply changes the direction the wave is moving in and hence does not capture the idea of a positron. A positron was postulated by Dirac as another solution of E2 = m2c4, IIRC. I am less sure about this, but wikipedia seems to agree with me, so, what do you think is wrong in considering a positron to be an electron moving backwards in time? AFAIK, this is a fairly simple way to think when using Feynman diagrams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosencrantz Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 On 12/15/2020 at 7:57 AM, Friendshipspren said: Wow that's beautiful. I know a bit about field theory from Arvin Ash's YouTube channel. I like how Sanderson is playing this out. Ok ok. Minor mistborn era 1 spoilers Reveal hidden contents Huh so ....wait could u transform stormlight into Leras-light or Ati-light and then use it to fuel allomancy ?? I understand the metal is simply the catalyst and the filter which is consumed while opening a gateway to the spiritual realm allowing access to investiture. But perhaps if the investiture is Leras-light found in the physical realm then it could make the metal just a filter . No need for it to open a gateway and be consumed ?? So you could use a metal bead to filter it into granting u a specific power , steel for pushing, tin for senses . That's not all too revolutionary but suppose you had a bead of atium and some Leras-light or Ati-light , then perhaps u could be a Seer and be gifted with precognition for atleast a very long time with a single bead of atium ?? Marsh still has some atium beads , there could be others that are lost but can be found. Well I don't see how useful atium would be in a world of bullets rather than arrows or fists but still heck idk it could be of some use. Also u might also love this tidbit. Moderate TFE spoilers. Just the first book Hide contents Sanderson said in a wob that the feruchemical process of" Skimming " , storing weight in ironminds , works by interfering with the Higgs field ,that I understand is responsible for granting mass to all particles, except gauge bosons. Sanderson originally had it be due to interfering with the acceleration due to gravity (g) I think but that was over a flawed understanding of the law of conservation of momentum so he later retconned it to the Higgs field. Mistborn era 1 spoilers: Spoiler Hmm, following that line of logic. I wonder if it's possible to take Stormlight, turn into Leras/Preservation-light. Then have a surgebinder breathe in the light (assuming they still can), and then they'd become a full mistborn. TFE Spoilers: Spoiler From what I remember, interactions with the Higgs field is what gives elementary particles their mass. There's other much more complicated mechanisms involved in giving something like the proton its mass (since the mass of the constituent quarks only accounts for something like 3% of the protons mass). So he may have to slightly retcon this again. Maybe just have it be something that changes how your matter interacts with the investiture field and ends up changing your effective mass. Side note: There's a similar concept in solid state physics where electrons have their effective mass changed because of how they interact with the electric fields of the surrounding atoms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 On 12/14/2020 at 11:36 PM, G2F4E6E7E8 said: In total, they would then be able to create, for example, devotion-light or ambition-light without having heard the tones for devotion or ambition before. I disagree that you could convert Light to different Shards that way. Even in the vacuum tube, the Light is still described as Voidlight, and it's only changed to the "opposing" tone that is actually the exact same sound. We have seen no evidence Intent can be changed. I personally find it more likely that there's a sort of positive/negative charge that gets flipped instead, but idk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serack Posted December 17, 2020 Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 (edited) On 12/15/2020 at 0:36 AM, G2F4E6E7E8 said: First, you should be able to use light instead of sound to imprint an investiture type onto base-state investiture. Light is another human-intuitive form of decomposing a wave into pure tones so it should work similarly if you have the right Intent. However, making pure colors is harder than pure sounds and might require a laser or something similar. 2 years ago I actually did an r/askscience question on the very issue of how hey used sufficiently coherent light for the significant experiments I've learned about that were performed before lasers. Short answer: For spatial coherence they used thin slits/pinholes to force a node at the zero point. Something Navani is already moving towards by placing her source "in a box, use a hole to focus the light" One of the techniques mentioned for "color" coherence was to place the slit/pinhole at the right spot on the spectrum from a prism. (There were several others, but this fits with what is already in the story and lets you tune the color) Ok, now to read past that part of your great post. You might enjoy this topic I made recently attempting to frame investiture in terms of Fermions and Bosons. Perhaps you may have insight on the matter. Edited December 17, 2020 by Serack 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G2F4E6E7E8 Posted December 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2020 @Friendshipspren The name comes from some mysterious, exceptional cases of objects in math that I think about a lot. There's a classification of "continuous symmetry types" (symmetry types of things like circles and spheres instead of things like squares that only have "discrete" symmetries) that is mostly infinite families that mathematicians expected. However, when they were finishing up the classification, they found 5 bizarre exceptions in specific large dimensions ranging from 7 to 248. I find these fascinating. @Ookla of Truthshapers Ah, I think those two concerns you brought up are related. So there are three ways to think of a wave like sin(x - vt). First, you think of it as a one dimensional moving image plotted against the x-axis and moving as you increase t. Second, you think of it as the opposite: plotted against t and moving as you increase x. Third, you can think of it as a stationary plane wave plotted against x and t. In the first interpretation you are correct: changing the plus to a minus just changes the direction the wave in moving in space. However, in the second interpretation, changing the sign changes the direction the wave is moving in time. The third interpretation reveals what's going on: a right-moving, forwards-in-time wave is indistinguishable from a left-moving, backwards-in-time wave. Both are diagonal plane waves oriented top-right to bottom-left in the (x,t)-plane. Which interpretation is correct depends on which problem you are trying to solve. This is the analogy I am going for: interpreting a positron as an electron going backwards in time is the same. It's just a mathematical trick/change in perspective that's useful for doing some calculations. It does not at all imply all the associations you would normally think of when you hear the English phrase "backwards in time"---you can't mess with causality/kill you grandfather and cause a paradox with an antimatter bullet. I think the wikipedia section is careful to clarify this in the last sentence? Of course this is an analogy that's wrong in all details. Somehow I'm conflating direction of spacial travel with electron vs. positron. Heck, electrons/positrons are all in quantum fields so even thinking of waves in them as functions plotted in spacetime is problematic. However, I think the analogy is correct in the intuition. Definitely let me know if I'm wrong there however---I'm a mathematician, not a physicist. @Serack Thanks for bringing that up about coherent light---I did not know that! Given that Navani did not seem to need anything like perfect pitch to get the tones right, the magic behind Intent might be good enough to not necessitate something as exact as a laser and those lower-tech methods might be good enough. The Boson/Fermion thing is interesting too. I really would not be surprised if Brandon Sanderson meant to go that deeply into physics analogies. His extreme emphasis on symmetries and pure tones is really strong signal that he was thinking a lot about real-world physics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SazedHarmony Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 I think Investiture functions like dark energy, like reverse gravity/cosmological constant, in space-time,. The further Investiture moves from its source, the more force is drawn to that center. I can't remember where but the spheres of Stormlight grow extremely heavy as they move off world in the Cognitive Realm. Investiture in a person has an easier ability to move. I think Nightblood acts as a black hole for Investiture. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serack Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 Hi @G2F4E6E7E8, I hope you are still active. I was reviewing your post and realized that in one of my own science heavy topics, I've done a follow up write up on harmonics in light waves that you might enjoy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted December 15, 2021 Report Share Posted December 15, 2021 I definitely think the analogy to field theories is totally intentional and not a coincidence, the waveforms ideas were hinted at way back in the early cosmere (harmonics of colors & perfect color recognition as analogous to perfect pitch in Warbreaker, Bronze Allomancy in Mistborn Era 1 - I think "pulse length" is their term for "wavelength" On 12/14/2020 at 11:36 PM, G2F4E6E7E8 said: Why RoW is amazing science fiction This fundamental idea--breaking up waves into pure tones--is something that I really don't see that much in even popular science, no matter how important it is to actual physics. Imagine then my shock then when the first mass media I see it in is, of all things, an ostensibly fantasy novel. It's not just a side-note; it's a critical piece of the magic system that I can use above to build wild theories involving real science concepts. This is what science fiction should be: deep concepts and ideas, not just the superficial trappings of the genre, like robots and spaceships or whatever. It is the pure opposite of technobabble. I didn't even talk here about how Navani's chapters present a more accurate view of what it feels like to work on a science problem than anything I've read before. She sees some strange phenomena that confuse her: the voidsphere explosion and the Thaylen guild's fabrial methods. She thinks deeply about all the implications of what they must mean. She then puts together some simple ideas derived from those in complicated ways, experiments with them, and figures out something amazing. This is what science is at its most basic level. Yep. SF and fantasy always have muddy edges, and with this sort of book they blur even more. Arguably RoW is science fiction in a fantasy setting, while Skyward is fantasy in a SF setting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmulatonStromenkiin Posted February 7, 2022 Report Share Posted February 7, 2022 On 12/15/2020 at 7:57 AM, Friendshipspren said: Huh so ....wait could u transform stormlight into Leras-light or Ati-light and then use it to fuel allomancy ?? I understand the metal is simply the catalyst and the filter which is consumed while opening a gateway to the spiritual realm allowing access to investiture. But perhaps if the investiture is Leras-light found in the physical realm then it could make the metal just a filter . No need for it to open a gateway and be consumed ?? I'm relatively sure that light is a gaseous form of investiture, and if so, Leras-light was just the white mists on Scandrial 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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