Does anyone still want a Moash redemption arc?

[Wind_Breaker]

On 15.12.2020 at 0:52 AM, HoidvsVoid said:

I would much rather Moash be a hurdle for our heroes to overcome than a cliche "bad guy becomes good again" trope.

I decided that based on which character I care about more. Moash, or Kaladin and the Radiants? Moash doesn't even come close.

While a Moash redemption arc may possibly be satisfying if written well enough, I believe that Moash written as a villain can provide so much more depth to the overall story and characters, especially Kaladin.

I agree 100% on the last paragraphs. About the other two points though - let's say, I definitely would love more development for Moash than Zane got, for example. That would be cool. I really like his character, although I was mad when reading about who he killed, of course. So if he gravitates back towards the good side, maybe not all the way through, or finds his own path aside those of Honour or Odium - why the heck not.

[Rainier]

On 1/31/2021 at 5:07 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No one quite writes like he did.

Homer, maybe. Perhaps they're both overrated.

On 1/31/2021 at 5:07 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

THIS is how you write sympathetic villains people! And how you give them redemptive elements without redemption. After all, Maitimo went to his fiery grave with the Silmaril clutched to his chest.

And Gollum died the same way. Moash is Gollum, and my heart tells me he has a part yet to play. Redemption? Who cares? Will he matter? I hope so. Tolkein came out and promised us Gollum would play some part in the future, and he fulfilled that promise.

I see people compare, and ask themselves, who they would prefer to live, at the end of Fellowship, Boromir or Gollum? Boromir, of course! His betrayal doesn't come until the start of Two Towers, and his death is noble and valiant despite his failings. And yet...Gollum, the miserable betrayer becomes more important to the outcome than Boromir, by his guiding and, at the end, he is the only one to challenge Frodo when the latter claims the Ring.

Brandon hasn't made us quite those same promises, but Moash is much more than a throwaway. He is bound up in the fate of Kaladin, if not all the Radiants. The hook to his story is obviously this new affliction, blindness.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

I agree with @Rainier, the structure of their relationship heavily implies that Moash's part is only partly played out, and that his fate is inextricably bound up with Kaladin's.

I think it's interesting that he is largely an unsympathetic character because his actions are such obvious foils for Kaladin, he is the shadow form of Kaladin, the living embodiment of the old saw of "There but for the grace of god go I".

I think we are well on our way to a tragic yet satisfying redemption arc for Moash because of the following:

• Moash is an embodiment of the consequences for choosing the wrong path, a mirroring of Kaladin's heroic choices, a moral exemplar for failing to follow the better path.
• Moash has given up on all things in life, he gave all of his pain to Odium, he tried to embrace the void, but the thing that connected him to a life not devoid of feeling was his admiration for Kaladin. He clearly sees that Kaladin cannot coexist with the nihilistic world view that he currently operates under, and his attempt to break Kaladin was really just a symbolic attempt to prove that his worldview is the correct one. But, again, he was proven wrong, because Kaladin was the spear that wouldn't break.
• At the end of RoW Moash is blind. He has an honorblade at this time, so he should be able to heal from this. I think this is the biggest clue we have about his potential redemption in the future of SLA. This blindness is symbolic, this is something that he won't be able to heal from because he sees an element of personal truth in this condition. The path that he has walked since he left Kaladin's side has been a blind path. If you live for vengeance,what's left to live for after the vengeance has been enacted?

Like @Seloun stated in his very fine post, everyone has the possibility of redemption (because it relies only on their actions), but not necessarily the capacity to be forgiven (which is dependent on the estimation of others). The murder of Teft is unforgivable, but the capacity to rise from the ashes of his delusional existence (where he believed he was free from the burden of the consequences of his actions) is there before him, and the fact that part of his spiritual identity is an incurable blindness leads me to believe that he is ready to acknowledge his past mistakes and is willing to atone for his past errors in judgement.

[Kyn]

12 hours ago, Hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

The murder of Teft is unforgivable, but the capacity to rise from the ashes of his delusional existence (where he believed he was free from the burden of the consequences of his actions) is there before him, and the fact that part of his spiritual identity is an incurable blindness leads me to believe that he is ready to acknowledge his past mistakes and is willing to atone for his past errors in judgement.

But Honorblades can’t heal as well as a Radiant Bond can. When Taravangian was trying to fool Szeth into thinking Kaladin had an Honorblade, he specifically said it must have been one of the ones with Regrowth to account for healing from a Shardblade wound.

Words of Radiance I-14:

Quote

“You fought a Surgebinder?” Adrotagia said, glancing at Taravangian.

“Yes,” Szeth said. “An Alethi man who fed upon Stormlight. He healed a Blade-severed arm. He is . . . Radiant . . .” That strain in his voice did not sound safe. Taravangian glanced at Szeth’s hands. They were clenching into fists time and time again, like hearts beating.

“No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished.”

Szeth blinked, and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?”

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”

The inability of an Honorblade to heal wounds caused by Stormlight suggests they also can’t heal wounds caused by Towerlight. This inability, combined with Moash’s insistence that he didn’t want to feel, tells us he is not currently ready to acknowledge, let alone atone for, anything he has done wrong.

This is not a man who is either seeking or ready for redemption:

Quote

The snow numbed his skin.

But not his soul. Not his wretched soul.

“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel.

He didn’t want this pain. He deserved it, yes, but he didn’t want it.

In fact, this sounds like a man who has blinded himself to his flaws and mistakes, thus crippling himself so that his physical blindness is merely a reflection of his own willfully-blind, unrepentant and inflexibly cognitively-dissonant internal state. Moash isn’t sorry for his actions, so how could he be ready to atone for them, let alone be redeemed?

[Shob the Voidbringer]

moash is sorry. otherwise he would not feel guilt. he believes that he is not because he saw killing teft as necessary, and thinks that he can't be sorry for necessity, but he can and is. he hates himself for all that he's done, and see's his blindness as what he deserves, so it doesn't heal. if he realizes that he was selfish, and brutal, then he'll realize that he is sorry, and that his unchaining was not right, and that kal was right, but eventually, will forgive himself with help (likely from kal).

[Kyn]

2 hours ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

moash is sorry. otherwise he would not feel guilt.

…That’s not how guilt works. You can feel that what you did was bad without feeling either like you shouldn’t have done it or like you need to make it better somehow. Psychopaths regularly acknowledge wrongs done without wanting to redress them, and Moash is likely in a similar state, as he has deadened his feelings (and shows no empathy for Teft or others even in these moments when his feelings come back).

Feeling guilty merely means knowing what you did was wrong. Feeling sorry means wanting to make recompense. Until Moash shows signs that he wants to fix the things he’s screwed up, he’s not ready for redemption.

2 hours ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

he hates himself for all that he's done, and see's his blindness as what he deserves, so it doesn't heal.

Again, the books tell us that Honorblades don’t heal wounds caused by Shardblades. If they can’t heal Stormlight wounds, they’re unlikely to be able to heal Towerlight wounds. So Moash’s continued blindness is a function of his inability to heal given the tools at hand, not of his perception of himself.

[Halyo_Alex]

2 hours ago, Kyn said:

If they can’t heal Stormlight wounds, they’re unlikely to be able to heal Towerlight wounds.

I don't get what you're saying here. Shardblades don't inflict harm by using Stormlight, or else they wouldn't work without the user holding any.

[Kyn]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Shardblades don't inflict harm by using Stormlight, or else they wouldn't work without the user holding any.

You’re right, they don't technically slash things with Light. They’re just made of the Investiture from their overarching Shard as its godmetal. I always assumed Shardblades and Plate were charged with Stormlight because spren are. But just because I think of them as fueled by Stormlight through the spren comprising them doesn’t mean that’s an appropriate way to describe them.

It would be more accurate to talk about Investiture in the form of Shardblades damaging the spiritweb, and Investiture in the form of Light doing the same thing when wielded as a weapon, thanks.

[Waffles]

I think in a way Moash is already partly dead, isnt the ability to heal with stormlight related to identity? If Moash cant heal with investiture it means that he's had a powerful change in his self perception similar to Kaladin finally releasing his shash rune as part of himself.

Narratively Moash plays a darth vader role: He killed a lovable old man in front of his young mentee and in doing so made Kal both weaker and then more powerful. If Moash continues to follow that path he might make some great self sacrifice later and die as a flawed character having done much evil and some good, which I feel like would be a viable path for him.

[Maddie The Survivor]

Navani should kill Moash for revenge. End of story. 
 He should die a painful death...

After all he did, he really deserves it.

also, please no hate, I just really hate Moash.

[apepi]

I don't want a redemption ark, but I also don't want him to just die. I want him to suffer, take in all the deeds that he has done and feel the pain. Death is too kind. Then have him disappear off the edge of map the map, with no one knowing where he is.

And at the end of the stormlight books we will barely here mention of a blind man, someone will ask Brandon "Is that Moash?" And he will just rafo it like a mad lad.

[Use the Falchion]

I do!

Not because I like Moash - I really don't. But I think that he's the type of person who needs a redemption arc the most...in the back half. 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Use the Falchion

[Could Be Fire]

On 12/14/2020 at 11:44 PM, Honorless said:

Yeah but after Rhythm of War, I don't think it's happening

IDK? I'm not a Moash truther/stan/whatever but one of the major themes of SA is redemption/growth. Elhokar's whole role as a character is to make you change your mind and go from hating to liking him. It's one of the central facets of Dalinar's character. The Knight Radiant oaths are all about growth, and we're seeing the redemption of the Knight's Radiant happen in the universe. 

Also re-reading OB made me remember some moments where I really felt for him (like when he works to help Sah and the other Parshmen). 

Yes, Moash has done some terrible, terrible things, and is currently running away from responsibility as fast as he possibly can. But so have other characters who were able to redeem themselves.  

Think of how hated Elhokar was in WoK and WoR. He puts Kaladin in prison! And to say he's an incompetent king is an understatement. Dalinar is a more extreme example, the Blackthorn does some really horrible stuff. Dalinar was an objectively horrible person for like 30+ years of his life. But both get redemption arcs. Venli starts a Desolation, Szeth murders like so many people, the Heralds abandoned humanity, I could go on. 

Moash's actions hit so hard because we watch his fall happen in realtime, and he is most directly attacking the characters closest to us. Especially, especially cause that character is Kaladin. Dalinar is already like two-thirds of the way into his redemption arc when we meet him, and he had some serious supernatural help to get there. That's one of the 'twists' of Oathbringer. You spend WoK+WoR wondering why everyone won't listen to or work with Dalinar because he's being completely reasonable. Then you see the Blackthorn in action and it clicks. 

Imagine that our main characters were Evi and the Rifter Highprince (Tanalan? I think) and the books were set during the Kholin conquest. You'd definitely think Dalinar was irredeemable after the Rift, especially when all he does in response is become a drunkard. We could be at that point in Moash's arc. 

Of course, I'm not arguing that a Moash redemption is a guarantee. He just as well could be a Saedas or an Amaram, a warning sign to show what happens when you don't take responsibility and grow as a person and just dive deeper into terrible choices. Moash could totally be on a one-way path to evil. But based on the pattern of character arcs, I wouldn't be surprised if Sanderson takes the opportunity to show a character diving to their lowest point and still being able to turn around and grow.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Could Be Fire
minor grammar because I write like an idiot.

[Jofwu]

I don't see Moash being redeemed, personally. I guess I feel like there would be more indicators of this path for him, if that were the case? He just seems like a full-on foil for Kaladin at this point. He's there to show us who Kaladin would have been if he made different choices. I could see Moash being regretful in the end. I could see him recognizing that he made bad decisions and feeling bad about it. But I don't know that he has it in himself to go much further than that.

I could be wrong.

I LOVE the ties you made to Gollum, @Rainier. Very well said.

I actually compared Moash to Gollum myself the other day, in a different way. One of the themes in Lord of the Rings is the idea of evil being it's own undoing. (Some elaboration of that on point 5 here.) I've been wondering if Brandon will do something similar with Moash. Have his own fear, thirst for vengeance, regret, etc. be the thing that results in his demise. Partly because I can't see Kaladin directly killing him. (see the changes to the end of WoR) Partly because I can't see Moash directly killing himself. (too dark) And partly because I think it would work really well with this whole dichotomy we see with Moash and Kaladin. Moash thought his path was the only way, but in the end his path was what destroyed him.

[+robardin]

Tinfoil hat theory:

Long ago, Moash visited the Nightwatcher after his grandparents died in prison, and asked for some way to get revenge. And like Dalinar and Taravangian, Cultivation herself took a special interest.

We don't know what his boon/bane might be, but this is Cultivation's true long game: to get Moash into position as Odium's key pawn (hey, he got an Honorblade!), to get him to hate himself...

Taravangian thinks Cultivation "has no idea what she's done" in engineering his Ascension to Odium? Oh, you wonderful creature, you were just a steppingstone to use to kill Rayse in a way he wouldn't expect - elimination at the hand of a dying old man who'd sworn allegiance to him.

The true end game for Culti is to get MOASH to Ascend to Odium, after he's in such a state hating himself so much that instead of wanting to go out and take over the Cosmere, whether out of megalomania (Rayse) or an inflamed sense of righting injustice (Taravangian), his version of Odium will be a navel-gazing kind of impotent self-loathing. 

Because Odium can't "take his pain" if he IS Odium, right? HAHAHAHA!

Edited March 4, 2021 by robardin

[Mensadiu]

Well, I think Moash can't redeem himself, but there is something in RoW that got me thinking... when Navani sings that anti Odium rithm fixing the defenses of Urithiru, he loses his connection to Odium.

Perhaps if Moash is exposed to that rithm while in the middle of a fight or some sort of key moment in the fifth book, well, that could be a good moment for redemption. Maybe saving Gavinor or something like that.

Cheers! 

[Procrastination]

I've hated Moash since the whole "joining Odium and killing Elhokar" thing went down. As far as I'm concerned, Moash can go die. 

I want to see Navini go all ninja Bondsmith on him and totally wreck him for killing her son.

Edited March 18, 2021 by rosharian_cat

[Stormlightning]

I expect Moash will find his own humanity again at some point before he dies. And to many, that qualifies as "redemption arc" or at least an attempted one. So If you consider that a redemption arc, then yes, I expect one.

I expect him to realize how he's lied to himself and hurt people he loves, but I don't expect full-hero from him. Could it happen? Yeah, and that would probably make people who like to simplify things dislike it simply because it's a trope, but I care more that it's written well, and I'm confident Brandon would do it well if he chose that path. As much as I love to hate Moash and think he's a great bad guy and would cheer if he died ugly, I wouldn't mind a Sanderson-strength redemption arc at all. Like others have said, it's a big theme of the series that no one is beyond hope, and Moash would certainly strike something thought-provoking and probably deeply troubling to some people--but it's not good philosophy if it doesn't make some people uncomfortable!

But this is kinda like how in WoR/OB Shallan thought about some passing attraction to Kal and visa versa a bit, and people called it a love triangle. To me it was just normal, believable considering-your-options humanity, but since then I've noticed that people like to simplify stuff in order to bash on it, like tropes are inherently cheap, and I'd expect that same thing to happen for Moash if he did anything marginally good. But I think Brandon could make it so he earned it fairly and open-minded folks would be on board.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Stormlightning

[IAmTheStick]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:48 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

That's it just wondering.

It's not likely. For a redemption arc, the character has to be, y'know, redeemable. I think the closest we'll get (if we do get anything of the sort) is Moash dying and apologizing or saying he was wrong or something. And again, not likely.

[RAFOmancer]

Nope,no redemption arc for him.We shall not spell his name,for his betrayal was far greater than we all thought it would be. Let him pay the price!

[Letryx13]

On 2/7/2021 at 6:14 PM, Kyn said:

But Honorblades can’t heal as well as a Radiant Bond can. When Taravangian was trying to fool Szeth into thinking Kaladin had an Honorblade, he specifically said it must have been one of the ones with Regrowth to account for healing from a Shardblade wound.

Words of Radiance I-14:

The inability of an Honorblade to heal wounds caused by Stormlight suggests they also can’t heal wounds caused by Towerlight. This inability, combined with Moash’s insistence that he didn’t want to feel, tells us he is not currently ready to acknowledge, let alone atone for, anything he has done wrong.

This is not a man who is either seeking or ready for redemption:

In fact, this sounds like a man who has blinded himself to his flaws and mistakes, thus crippling himself so that his physical blindness is merely a reflection of his own willfully-blind, unrepentant and inflexibly cognitively-dissonant internal state. Moash isn’t sorry for his actions, so how could he be ready to atone for them, let alone be redeemed?

Reading through the quote just now, Szeth never actually says that Kaladin heals his own arm, just a blade severed one.  The power of regrowth can restore another person's limb from a shard blade cut if they get to it quickly, so maybe that's why Taravangian mentioned regrowth. So I think it's likely that honorblades can heal wounds as well as a radiant bond; they just need a lot more light.

I've had a new idea for how Moash should be punished.  Instead of dying, he should be made immortal and forced to relive all the horrible feelings from what he's done, over and over.  Sanderson repeatedly reinforces the belief that living is harder than dying.  This seems like a much harsher punishment to me.

[Frustration]

44 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Reading through the quote just now, Szeth never actually says that Kaladin heals his own arm, just a blade severed one.  The power of regrowth can restore another person's limb from a shard blade cut if they get to it quickly, so maybe that's why Taravangian mentioned regrowth. So I think it's likely that honorblades can heal wounds as well as a radiant bond; they just need a lot more light.

Radiants with regrowth heal faster than those without. I'd assume more powerfully to. And Honorblades are likely the same.

[Rg2045]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Radiants with regrowth heal faster than those without. I'd assume more powerfully to. And Honorblades are likely the same.

Wouldn’t this be a form of compounding? The regular healing mixed with regrowth 

[Treamayne]

Most likely T mentioned an Honorblade with Regrowth because the healing Szeth gained from the Windrunner Honorblde didn't let him heal a blade severed limb, so if you are trying to convince The Assassin in White that Radiants have not returned, it would take a Regrowth Blade to heal a blade severed limb.

8 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Wouldn’t this be a form of compounding? The regular healing mixed with regrowth 

Very likely, since Renarin's fight with the Thunderclast showed him using healing like Miles in AoL:

Oathbringer Ch 120:

Spoiler

The thunderclast’s palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother’s Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist.

The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn’t even a bother.

Then again, it's Renarin, so there could be other factors. . .

Edited October 1, 2022 by Treamayne
Fomatting

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, Rg2045 said:

Wouldn’t this be a form of compounding? The regular healing mixed with regrowth 

Not really, compounding is changing what effect the Investiture gives you, this would be a boost in the powers effect because you have twice the power.