Who else has cultivation manipulated

[Valigus]

Cultivation in my opinion seems to be shaping up to maybe be the real villain of not just stormlight archives but the cosmere.

she has manipulated to our knowledge three major characters all of which we knew had been touched by the night watcher. We know cultivation has good future sight and has been manipulating things a lot, and her plans judging by the end seems to keep going, additionally rayse calls roshar a testing ground which seems sounds very cultivationy.

But that’s not the point so let’s lay out people who may have been manipulated

known-

Dalinar- whose role was to become a bondsmith and we don’t know after that maybe become honor?

taravangian- role was to become odium and save the cosmere?

lift- unknown but the pattern seems to suggest her becoming cultivation.

likely- 

Jasnah- what broke her has been mentioned before as some kind of mental problems as a child but she describes it as “a childhood illness nobody remembers” which sounds to me like the work of cultivation.

evie- I think it’s very possible that she was somehow manipulating evie maybe not in terms of a boon or memory snip but maybe just straight up giving her instructions while she meditated.

szeth- I think szeth may very well have been manipulated by cultivation, we know she had nightblood and it’s quite possible nightblood is the manipulation or there may be more. He had to have been there for taravangain to become odium and she must have known that.

sja-Anat- I think it almost certain cultivation has worked with sja-Anat and maybe is what enabled her to break from odium, by extension I think she is also manipulating renarin and all those with corrupted spren.

possibly-

Rysn- idk what role she could have but I think it possible that she could have manipulated her lots of event shave been prodding her and Changing her life.

aesudan- a lot about her is unknown and odd but certainly seems possible

venli- not sure what would have been done but venli seems uniquely able to resist forms influence and is always herself even more so then Eshonai, maybe she caused her mother’s memory loss. Idk but it seems possible.

Unlikely- 

Gavilar- possibly did soemthing to him but no indication of anything weird going on with him that seems in any way to fit cultivation’s methods so far.

navani- same as a with gavilar

sadeas- doubt it nothing seems to fit there

on the fence- 

shallan- I think it possible that shallans memory compartmentalizations could have been something caused or at least aided by cultivation I mainly think this because they conveniently start to drop at certain times causing problems where nothing seems to have triggered it.

kaladin- ok hear me out on this, something is going on with kaladin, something that I don’t know the end of but there he has a role we don’t fully understand im certain of it. The things that have happened in Rythm of war especially in terms of his fighting process remind me a lot of vin who we know became a shard for a while. My evidence 

1. child of tanavast- sure it means soemthing not sure what

2. those yellow eyes when he killed the pursuer- I think that it had to do with the strong emotions he was feeling and his bond to odium the full extent of which we may not understand, also when I learned that war light was the name of honor and odiums light together It made me think that kaladin is gonna take up the two shards and become war, idk if this is gonna happen or not though.

3. Kaladin is being set up as the next dalinar- kaladin especially in Rythm of war and especially relating to his leadership style and evolving role has been described very similarly to dalinar especially early on in the series, i doubt cultivation would start her plan without a back up and it strikes me depending on what happened to kaladin he could become honor or odium, especially if you manipulate some of his past events.

4. vin parallels- kaladin especially this book in fights has seemed to be very similar to vins miraculous skill, and while this was always the case now more then ever the best example Being how he defeated a fighter with 7000 years of experience while unarmed and an emotional wreck and doing it all so fast that everyone around could barely register what was happening, that’s not just stormlight that’s something else.

so while I can’t prove and can’t offer any specifics on her manipulation of kaladin it just seems very odd that cultivation wouldn’t have a plan or want to control kaladin considering that he seems like he has somewhere to go in terms of the grand story.

Insane- 

syl- why did syl go dormant after bonding a Knight, we get basic explanations but we never hear about this being a problem other times, she also seems decidedly more independent and even like she has actual neurological things going on with her like adhd, overall she is a very odd spren. On top of this she slumbered for a long time and was only rediscovered recently only to immediately bond the redo under of the order of windrunners seems convenient, coudl cultivation have been keeping her hidden and asleep?

ok actually just thought of soemthing to make syl more plausible she says she heard a pure tone or note in relation to kaladin many people think this is tien but couldn’t it be cultivation?

 

also everyone needs to start wearing aluminum hats.

 

just had a thought they are all shards, maybe kaladin is valor, and ambition coudl be venli, etc...

Edited February 15, 2021 by Valigus

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

Cultivation in my opinion seems to be shaping up to maybe be the real villain of not just stormlight archives but the cosmere.

she has manipulated to our knowledge three major characters all of which we knew had been touched by the night watcher. We know cultivation has good future sight and has been manipulating things a lot, and her plans judging by the end seems to keep going, additionally rayse calls roshar a testing ground which seems sounds very cultivationy.

But that’s not the point so let’s lay out people who may have been manipulated

known-

Dalinar- whose role was to become a bondsmith and we don’t know after that maybe become honor?

taravangian- role was to become odium and save the cosmere?

lift- unknown but the pattern seems to suggest her becoming cultivation.

likely- 

Jasnah- what broke her has been mentioned before as some kind of mental problems as a child but she describes it as “a childhood illness nobody remembers” which sounds to me like the work of cultivation.

evie- I think it’s very possible that she was somehow manipulating evie maybe not in terms of a boon or memory snip but maybe just straight up giving her instructions while she meditated.

szeth- I think szeth may very well have been manipulated by cultivation, we know she had nightblood and it’s quite possible nightblood is the manipulation or there may be more. He had to have been there for taravangain to become odium and she must have known that.

sja-Anat- I think it almost certain cultivation has worked with sja-Anat and maybe is what enabled her to break from odium, by extension I think she is also manipulating renarin and all those with corrupted spren.

possibly-

Rysn- idk what role she could have but I think it possible that she could have manipulated her lots of event shave been prodding her and Changing her life.

aesudan- a lot about her is unknown and odd but certainly seems possible

venli- not sure what would have been done but venli seems uniquely able to resist forms influence and is always herself even more so then Eshonai, maybe she caused her mother’s memory loss. Idk but it seems possible.

Unlikely- 

Gavilar- possibly did soemthing to him but no indication of anything weird going on with him that seems in any way to fit cultivation’s methods so far.

navani- same as a with gavilar

sadeas- doubt it nothing seems to fit there

on the fence- 

shallan- I think it possible that shallans memory compartmentalizations could have been something caused or at least aided by cultivation I mainly think this because they conveniently start to drop at certain times causing problems where nothing seems to have triggered it.

kaladin- ok hear me out on this, something is going on with kaladin, something that I don’t know the end of but there he has a role we don’t fully understand im certain of it. The things that have happened in Rythm of war especially in terms of his fighting process remind me a lot of vin who we know became a shard for a while. My evidence 

1. child of tanavast- sure it means soemthing not sure what

2. those yellow eyes when he killed the pursuer- I think that it had to do with the strong emotions he was feeling and his bond to odium the full extent of which we may not understand, also when I learned that war light was the name of honor and odiums light together It made me think that kaladin is gonna take up the two shards and become war, idk if this is gonna happen or not though.

3. Kaladin is being set up as the next dalinar- kaladin especially in Rythm of war and especially relating to his leadership style and evolving role has been described very similarly to dalinar especially early on in the series, i doubt cultivation would start her plan without a back up and it strikes me depending on what happened to kaladin he could become honor or odium, especially if you manipulate some of his past events.

4. vin parallels- kaladin especially this book in fights has seemed to be very similar to vins miraculous skill, and while this was always the case now more then ever the best example Being how he defeated a fighter with 7000 years of experience while unarmed and an emotional wreck and doing it all so fast that everyone around could barely register what was happening, that’s not just stormlight that’s something else.

so while I can’t prove and can’t offer any specifics on her manipulation of kaladin it just seems very odd that cultivation wouldn’t have a plan or want to control kaladin considering that he seems like he has somewhere to go in terms of the grand story.

Insane- 

syl- why did syl go dormant after bonding a Knight, we get basic explanations but we never hear about this being a problem other times, she also seems decidedly more independent and even like she has actual neurological things going on with her like adhd, overall she is a very odd spren. On top of this she slumbered for a long time and was only rediscovered recently only to immediately bond the redo under of the order of windrunners seems convenient, coudl cultivation have been keeping her hidden and asleep?

 

also everyone needs to start wearing aluminum hats.

 

just had a thought they are all shards, maybe kaladin is valor, and ambition coudl be venli, etc...

I have been thinking along the same lines, you seem situated to help me out, 

could you please look this over and see if I missed anything?

 

[Valigus]

That actually covers a lot of the specifics about kaladins weird role, I hadn’t even considered that kaladin wasn’t known about by nale!

[Lightdancer]

5 hours ago, Valigus said:

maybe kaladin is valor

Add that to contradictory endings I want to happen to Kaladin.

[LuckyJim]

3 hours ago, Valigus said:

That actually covers a lot of the specifics about kaladins weird role, I hadn’t even considered that kaladin wasn’t known about by nale!

He knew there was a surgebinder in Amaram's army, but didn't realize there were two. However Nale seems to find potential Radiants, it seems to be flawed, as Shallan and Jasnah seem to have evaded notice as well. (Possibly Zu too, if I have my timeline straight).

[Valigus]

57 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

He knew there was a surgebinder in Amaram's army, but didn't realize there were two. However Nale seems to find potential Radiants, it seems to be flawed, as Shallan and Jasnah seem to have evaded notice as well. (Possibly Zu too, if I have my timeline straight).

This is fair but kaladin seems to be a high profile example to have escaped notice, killed a shardbearer, and did a bunch of other stuff that wouldn’t have a escaped notice.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

This is fair but kaladin seems to be a high profile example to have escaped notice, killed a shardbearer, and did a bunch of other stuff that wouldn’t have a escaped notice.

Maybe Kalak told Nale that Amaram had killed Kaladin?

[Valigus]

12 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Maybe Kalak told Nale that Amaram had killed Kaladin?

1. Why would kelak know that did I miss something 

2. They didn’t seem to know of kaladin at all, then was killed like a year before amaram would have supposedly killed kaladin, which means they only knew about tien.

 

what if cultivation is responsible for adolin weird deadeye whispering powers, maybe he is gonna be able to bring shattered shards back together

Edited December 15, 2020 by Valigus

[garlick]

40 minutes ago, Valigus said:

1. Why would kelak know that did I miss something 

2. They didn’t seem to know of kaladin at all, then was killed like a year before amaram would have supposedly killed kaladin, which means they only knew about tien.

 

what if cultivation is responsible for adolin weird deadeye whispering powers, maybe he is gonna be able to bring shattered shards back together

Kelek is restaries and is the leader of the sons of honor. It was at his suggestion that amaram took the shards from kaladin.

Edited December 15, 2020 by garlick

[Valigus]

5 minutes ago, garlick said:

Kelek is restaries and is the leader of the sons of honor. It was at his suggestion that amaram took the shards from kaladin.

Are we sure about that? It seems weird for restaries to have been in direct command of soemthing like that, it’s possible but I doubt it.

[garlick]

100%. Restaries was mentioned a few times. Amaram himself said it was his idea. It wasnt until RoW we found out that it's Kelek. Hes looking for a way off world and was using the sons of honor to try to figure out a way to leave. 

[Valigus]

14 minutes ago, garlick said:

100%. Restaries was mentioned a few times. Amaram himself said it was his idea. It wasnt until RoW we found out that it's Kelek. Hes looking for a way off world and was using the sons of honor to try to figure out a way to leave. 

Ok don’t remember that still I doubt that restares knew he was a radiant, additionally the timeline really doesn’t match up tien died who they thought was the only proto-radiant there like a year before that happened

[+Oltux72]

21 hours ago, Valigus said:

Cultivation in my opinion seems to be shaping up to maybe be the real villain of not just stormlight archives but the cosmere.

Villain? What has she done

• dared to talk somebody who wanted to kill her
• dared to try diplomacy
• changed a small group of people who asked for it

How horrible and villainous.

For what reason would Cultivation make plans that involve most of the Shards turning into her enemies? Now, Hoid does not like her. But I do not get why people like Hoid in this. i am old enough to remember the Cold War. We had a very snarky comment. "We will fight the Soviets until we run out of Afghans." That is essentially Hoid's plan B for Roshar.

The Stormlight Archive has many groups of actors who have distinct interests and very few of them can be sorted by good vs. evil.

 

[Valigus]

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Villain? What has she done

• dared to talk somebody who wanted to kill her
• dared to try diplomacy
• changed a small group of people who asked for it

How horrible and villainous.

For what reason would Cultivation make plans that involve most of the Shards turning into her enemies? Now, Hoid does not like her. But I do not get why people like Hoid in this. i am old enough to remember the Cold War. We had a very snarky comment. "We will fight the Soviets until we run out of Afghans." That is essentially Hoid's plan B for Roshar.

The Stormlight Archive has many groups of actors who have distinct interests and very few of them can be sorted by good vs. evil.

 

Villains don’t mean evil people all the time, I don’t think cultivation is evil but I think she has been manipulating things behind the scenes extensively. On top of this odiums declaration that that roshar is a training ground sounds too much like a cultivation thing to not worry me a bit. On top of that her growth at all costs deal is scary when you consider what it could cause her to do, she could burn worlds or turn them into paradise depending on her mood.

that on top of the fact that she could be manipulating everyone and we wouldn’t know for a long time. 

but the main reason is that what she said to Taravangian really rubbed me the wrong way like she had always planned for this and now had to introduce him to her full plans. Based on the scale of odium’s plans I doubt hers are limited to roshar either and rn the only thing we know is she seems to have made at least 1 presumably more since dalinar and lift may end up being honor and cultivation. On top of this her having hands on so many major players at the very least dalinar, lift, now odium, szeth or at least nightblood, and vasher let’s not forget, and those are only the ones we know of I find it hard to believe she planned only for them and doesn’t have a plan for kaladin or renarin or Aja-Anat, for all we know sja-Amat broke free of odium with her help and on top of this every corrupted radiant spren has been a mist spren of an order related to cultivation and window appears to have bonded lift against his will also related to cultivation.

I do agree hoid isn’t a good guy, he doesn’t care about people he cares about his plan, he will probably betray the heroes at some point.

 

also has anyone seriously considered adolin deadeye whispering could be from cultivation 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Valigus

[garlick]

51 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Ok don’t remember that still I doubt that restares knew he was a radiant, additionally the timeline really doesn’t match up tien died who they thought was the only proto-radiant there like a year before that happened

I was responding to "how would kelek know" after you quoted someone saying he may have told Nale kaladin was killed. Not him knowing kaladin was a radiant. I think I'm on the same page now its just the way the post went.

[Valigus]

1 minute ago, garlick said:

I was responding to "how would kelek know" after you quoted someone saying he may have told Nale kaladin was killed. Not him knowing kaladin was a radiant. I think I'm on the same page now its just the way the post went.

Ah ok yeah I think there was some communication error there sorry.

[GameOfGroans]

Taravangian, possibly. Lift, I didn't finish Edgedancer yet, so too early for me to say. Dalinar - she told him clearly what she is going to do to him, including that his memories will return at certain point in future, and he agreed. After that, he was left to make his own decisions.

As for all the other suggestions, I don't remember anything from the books that would support them, and without supporting quotes, anybody can suggest just about anything 

In fact, Sja-anat when talking to Taravangian says Cultivation touched 3 people and doesn't mention anybody else.

Edited December 16, 2020 by GameOfGroans

[Valigus]

6 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Taravangian, possibly. Lift, I didn't finish Edgedancer yet, so too early for me to say. Dalinar - she told him clearly what she is going to do to him, including that his memories will return at certain point in future, and he agreed. After that, he was left to make his own decisions.

As for all the other suggestions, I don't remember anything from the books that would support them, and without supporting quotes, anybody can suggest just about anything 

In fact, Sja-anat when talking to Taravangian says Cultivation touched 3 people and doesn't mention anybody else.

He was left to make his own decisions but cultivation knew what he was gonna do, she has if I remember correctly some of the best future sight of the shards.

the reason I think she has manipulated way more people is because she clearly has a large plan probably that extends to the greater cosmere, and with people like kaladin, shallan, etc... running around who could easily ruin her plans then why wouldn’t she do something to them, it doesn’t even have to be actual mental manipulation maybe she didn’t do anything to kaladin maybe it was to amaram for example. There are also lots of little things that would’ve explained a lot by cultivation’s manipulation and w elbow she is interfering with szeth in that at the very least she is responsible for him getting nightblood.

for sja-anat well I don’t think she would consider herself a person in the same vein as those three and she has no reason to know of cultivation’s plan, but how did she break free from odium and why has every single corrupted sentient spren been a mistspren which is of an order tied to cultivation.

also vasher, nightblood for whatever he got; I assume it’s the ability to use stormlight to keep himself alive isn’t a normal night watcher thing meaning cultivation is likely involved.

also Taravangian isn’t possibly we know he met with cultivation not the nightwatched and wyndle asks why mother gave lift the ability she did and he isn’t a mistspren, the first one is 100% cannon the second one is like 95% certain.

there isn’t any direct quotes but there are odd little things, like for example how kals eyes glowed yellow in row at one point. On top of the fact that people like kal are soemthing that surely would affect cultivation’s plan. Lots of little weird things make more sense the best example though is the childhood illness jasnah had that she says nobody seemed to remember, that sounds like cultivation’s influence to me.

 

the thing that makes this make too much sense for me is when you start to consider none of the shard bearers properly fit their shards for example ati was a kind man and was given ruin, Rayse hates but he is too careful and calculating, etc...

and so far we have one hard form the three manipulated by cultivation we have Taravangian who she conditioned to be able to control the extremes of emotions present in odium, if dalinar becomes honor we have someone who understands what happens when he isn’t there giving his all, if lift is gonna become cultivation then we have someone who understands wanting to remain the same these people are being conditioned to become the ultimate bearers of their shards, able to prevent the intent from controlling them. We can extend this to other characters like jasnah whT if jasnah becomes mercy and then we have a character who understands that mercy cannot always be granted. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Valigus

[Shob the Voidbringer]

i've been thinking about how cultivation has manipulating everyone, but i didn't go nearly as in depth as this. i really need to reread

but i have thought about dalinar getting honor and lift getting cultivation.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Ookla the Squid

[Valigus]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Squid said:

i've been thinking about how cultivation has manipulating everyone, but i didn't go nearly as in depth as this. i really need to reread

but i have thought about dalinar getting honor and lift getting cultivation.

Coming up with all this I felt like a tinfoil hat crazy conspiracy theorist, lol

yeah that one seemed the clearest one, though I’m not sure dalinar will become honor as opposed to kaladin.

but I’m convinced jasnah is being manipulated.

[Bejarden]

On the Kaladin note

in WoR kaladin before swearing 3rd ideal he gets a pseudo vision about tien death gotta work with what you have ( I don't have the book in front of me so I can't quote) and he gets the realization and the strength to face morash from killing elhokar 

Who sent this vision?          Cultivation did

Also Dalinars nahadon vision that the stormfather doesn't know about

[Subvisual Haze]

I think the big thing with Cultivation is that she makes plans within plans.  Rodium is the direct contrast, he wants one specific outcome and then pursues the goal with single minded focus.  Cultivation though is always planning for possibilities and contingencies.  Taravangian killing Rayse and becoming Odium was certainly one of her plans, but I'm sure she had many backups ready to implement if critical junctures swung in unexpected ways.

In particular I think fallen-Dalinar might have been an aborted alternate plan for killing Rayse.  In an alternate timeline where Dalinar did fall to Odium and become his champion, that doesn't preclude him from being a pawn in Cultivation's schemes.  She even alludes to as much when she blesses him

Quote

"IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS. YOU WERE ALWAYS BOUND TO COME TO ME. I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED. THAT INCLUDES THE THORNS."

 

[+Invocation]

7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

In particular I think fallen-Dalinar might have been an aborted alternate plan for killing Rayse.  In an alternate timeline where Dalinar did fall to Odium and become his champion, that doesn't preclude him from being a pawn in Cultivation's schemes.  She even alludes to as much when she blesses him

Tinfoil hat time: she's planning for a clone army.

[+C_rockets]

On 12/15/2020 at 1:16 PM, Valigus said:

but the main reason is that what she said to Taravangian really rubbed me the wrong way like she had always planned for this and now had to introduce him to her full plans. Based on the scale of odium’s plans I doubt hers are limited to roshar either

It does seem like what she says to Taravangian here is ambiguous, and I can see taking it in an unsettling way. I think, however, an equally plausible interpretation, and perhaps more plausible, is that all of her backstage planning is simply to prevent Rayse-Odium from achieving his plans of splintering all of the Shards.

I think she set up Taravangian to be able to handle Odium so that he wouldn't be as consumed by the "destroy" Intent of the Shard's power, in hopes that T-Odium will be more controllable and she will be able to help him see reason and be an ally to the other Shards instead of a single-minded foe.

This all, of course, is I think the most straightforward interpretation of Cultivation's actions, which as we know can be misleading.

[Valigus]

1 hour ago, C_rockets said:

It does seem like what she says to Taravangian here is ambiguous, and I can see taking it in an unsettling way. I think, however, an equally plausible interpretation, and perhaps more plausible, is that all of her backstage planning is simply to prevent Rayse-Odium from achieving his plans of splintering all of the Shards.

I think she set up Taravangian to be able to handle Odium so that he wouldn't be as consumed by the "destroy" Intent of the Shard's power, in hopes that T-Odium will be more controllable and she will be able to help him see reason and be an ally to the other Shards instead of a single-minded foe.

This all, of course, is I think the most straightforward interpretation of Cultivation's actions, which as we know can be misleading.

I suppose but then what’s lift do? I think her plans extend farther.