ScarecrowBoat716

Is it possible Shallan's mother was a Herald?

28 posts in this topic

I'm probably way overthinking this but did we ever find out why Shallan felt her "mother's soul" in her father's safe? I know the Testament-blade was locked in there, but that shouldn't be her mother's soul that she feels. Unless I'm missing something.

That scene makes me think of the gemstone knife that you can use to trap Heralds' souls. So I had the crazy thought that Shallan's mother was a Herald and somehow she actually trapped her mother's soul. Her mother being a Herald would explain why the cryptics are willing to bond her twice.

It's a WoB (well, technically a Word of Peter) that Chanaranach has been seen onscreen in the first two books:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/310/#e9123

We also don't know anything about the location of Vedel.

So that's two female Heralds, one of which we know has been seen in the books, with their locations unaccounted for.

The one thing that gives me pause is I would assume her soul would eventually evaporate like Jezrien's did, and then Kelek should know that another Herald has entered the Beyond. But I wanted to throw this theory out there to get the community's thoughts.

I'm well prepared to be totally shot down if I'm forgetting some detail that disproves this...

EDIT: Sanderson on his 12/17 live stream confirmed Heralds CAN procreate, although "not necessarily in the traditional way."

Edited by ScarecrowBoat716
6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmmm. I can’t think of anything that explicitly disproves this...but it does seem a little unlikely. 

It does make me want to theorize about who Chanaranach is though, that’s a really interesting quote. 

We might be able to figure out who she was by figuring out how her Madness would manifest. We know that the Heralds Insaneness is not normal crazy, it’s magic crazy, and it’s influenced by the divine attribute they are associated with. WOB:

Spoiler

Questioner

The Heralds seem to be insane in the ways of their Divine Attributes, at least somewhat. Is this because they're Heralds? As Cognitive Shadows, they're subject to people's perception, like how spren are?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very astute question, and yes, that is influencing them quite a bit. I'm doing something here with the Heralds. Like, I want the Heralds "madnesses," as we call them, to be magical diseases. And the contrast of something like Kaladin's depression, which I'm trying to treat very real-world. I'm trying to treat them as these things that couldn't exist in our world. They're fantastical mental diseases, like we have fantastic physical diseases in Elantris. So I did make them thematic, and I would say part of the reason for that is people's perception of them and their mental state reacting against that. And that should be a theme among all of the Heralds.

San Diego [email protected] 2020 (July 23, 2020)

Chanaranach’s divine attribute is “Brave/Obedient”
Any way that could fit with Shallan’s mother? Maybe she was obedient to a fault and tried to kill her daughter when told to?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Lightdancer said:

Chanaranach did have red hair...

Yeah I was going to mention that, if you look at her painting in the back of RoW:

400px-Chanarach_Endsheet.png

That is exactly how I imagine Shallan to look.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

That is exactly how I imagine Shallan to look.

Exactly! Okay, I like this theory...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking of something similar a couple of days ago, but was thinking that maybe Shallan herself was the herald Chanaranach.

That could explain her mental instability, multiple shardblades, and Wit's early special attention given to her.

I didn't even think about her mother.

Edited by HoidvsVoid
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There has been a bunch of Chana-hunts over the years. The most popular theory is that she is Liss, the assassin Jasnah employs at the start of WoR. I personally think that she is Vedel, if she is a Herald at all. Another theory that popped up was that she was the prostitute Adolin saved in WoK. I have never seen that theory that she is Shallans mother though. It is interesting, but I doubt that would be the case. Partially because Shallans mother seems to be affiliated with the Skybreakers, and thus presumably known to Nale. And Nale might be insane, but I doubt that he would leave Chana/another Herald trapped in a safe in Lin Davars home. 

Furthermore, Heralds are physical manifestations of cognitive shadows. I don't know if they can have children. 

9 hours ago, HoidvsVoid said:

I was thinking of something similar a couple of days ago, but was thinking that maybe Shallan herself was the herald Chanaranach.

If this was the case, Jasnah would have recognized Challan based on Hoids drawings. And we would also have to explain why Challan appeared as a ten year old girl, when her real appearance seems to be somewhere in the 25-35 range based on the art that we have. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

There has been a bunch of Chana-hunts over the years. The most popular theory is that she is Liss, the assassin Jasnah employs at the start of WoR. I personally think that she is Vedel, if she is a Herald at all. Another theory that popped up was that she was the prostitute Adolin saved in WoK. I have never seen that theory that she is Shallans mother though. It is interesting, but I doubt that would be the case. Partially because Shallans mother seems to be affiliated with the Skybreakers, and thus presumably known to Nale. And Nale might be insane, but I doubt that he would leave Chana/another Herald trapped in a safe in Lin Davars home. 

Furthermore, Heralds are physical manifestations of cognitive shadows. I don't know if they can have children. 

If this was the case, Jasnah would have recognized Challan based on Hoids drawings. And we would also have to explain why Challan appeared as a ten year old girl, when her real appearance seems to be somewhere in the 25-35 range based on the art that we have. 

I understand that it is very far-fetched, which I the major reason why I didn't bother making a thread about it, but once I saw this related thread, I felt like I might as well mention it.

There are ways to explain some of the inconsistencies, but too many of them add up to a bad theory. In regards to your issue, remember, Shallan has lightweaving powers. It is possible that she could have been unconsciously changing her appearance the entire series. Plus, her flashbacks could be some form of lie (she is a great liar after all) or/and could have even have been lightweaving then and maybe wasn't even really a child back then. Like I said, it is far-fetched and raises many other questions that make the theory seem invalid.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, HoidvsVoid said:

I understand that it is very far-fetched, which I the major reason why I didn't bother making a thread about it, but once I saw this related thread, I felt like I might as well mention it.

There are ways to explain some of the inconsistencies, but too many of them add up to a bad theory. In regards to your issue, remember, Shallan has lightweaving powers. It is possible that she could have been unconsciously changing her appearance the entire series. Plus, her flashbacks could be some form of lie (she is a great liar after all) or/and could have even have been lightweaving then and maybe wasn't even really a child back then. Like I said, it is far-fetched and raises many other questions that make the theory seem invalid.

Yeah, all theories are worth posting, no matter how good they are. We are here to discuss after all. 

And sure, she could have used Lightweaving, but like you yourself is saying, there are too many question-marks around it to make it feel plausible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

I'm probably way overthinking this but did we ever find out why Shallan felt her "mother's soul" in her father's safe? I know the Testament-blade was locked in there, but that shouldn't be her mother's soul that she feels. Unless I'm missing something.

That scene makes me think of the gemstone knife that you can use to trap Heralds' souls. So I had the crazy thought that Shallan's mother was a Herald and somehow she actually trapped her mother's soul. Her mother being a Herald would explain why the cryptics are willing to bond her twice.

It's a WoB (well, technically a Word of Peter) that Chanaranach has been seen onscreen in the first two books:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/310/#e9123

We also don't know anything about the location of Vedel.

So that's two female Heralds, one of which we know has been seen in the books, with their locations unaccounted for.

The one thing that gives me pause is I would assume her soul would eventually evaporate like Jezrien's did, and then Kelek should know that another Herald has entered the Beyond. But I wanted to throw this theory out there to get the community's thoughts.

I'm well prepared to be totally shot down if I'm forgetting some detail that disproves this...

If she died to a mere Shardblade, wouldn't she be in Braize?

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

There has been a bunch of Chana-hunts over the years. The most popular theory is that she is Liss, the assassin Jasnah employs at the start of WoR. I personally think that she is Vedel, if she is a Herald at all. Another theory that popped up was that she was the prostitute Adolin saved in WoK. I have never seen that theory that she is Shallans mother though. It is interesting, but I doubt that would be the case. Partially because Shallans mother seems to be affiliated with the Skybreakers, and thus presumably known to Nale. And Nale might be insane, but I doubt that he would leave Chana/another Herald trapped in a safe in Lin Davars home. 

Furthermore, Heralds are physical manifestations of cognitive shadows. I don't know if they can have children. 

If this was the case, Jasnah would have recognized Challan based on Hoids drawings. And we would also have to explain why Challan appeared as a ten year old girl, when her real appearance seems to be somewhere in the 25-35 range based on the art that we have. 

Regarding Nale: given he can only kill Radiants if they've broken the Law, maybe Chana was never going to kill Shallan but to make her kill Chana in self-defence so that Nale had his excuse to kill her? 

 

Doesn't explain why he wouldn't then come to finish the job though 

Edited by Chaos
double post
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

There has been a bunch of Chana-hunts over the years. The most popular theory is that she is Liss, the assassin Jasnah employs at the start of WoR. I personally think that she is Vedel, if she is a Herald at all. Another theory that popped up was that she was the prostitute Adolin saved in WoK. I have never seen that theory that she is Shallans mother though. It is interesting, but I doubt that would be the case. Partially because Shallans mother seems to be affiliated with the Skybreakers, and thus presumably known to Nale. And Nale might be insane, but I doubt that he would leave Chana/another Herald trapped in a safe in Lin Davars home. 

Furthermore, Heralds are physical manifestations of cognitive shadows. I don't know if they can have children. 

If this was the case, Jasnah would have recognized Challan based on Hoids drawings. And we would also have to explain why Challan appeared as a ten year old girl, when her real appearance seems to be somewhere in the 25-35 range based on the art that we have. 

Vo had children and we know other Returned can have them. So it is possible for at least some Shadows to do so.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Furthermore, Heralds are physical manifestations of cognitive shadows. I don't know if they can have children. 

If Sanderson does a Reddit AMA again and I have a chance to ask him something, this will be my question!

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

There has been a bunch of Chana-hunts over the years. The most popular theory is that she is Liss, the assassin Jasnah employs at the start of WoR.

I don't think this is possible, Liss is described as having dark hair and a plump figure. Chana has red hair and looks thin.

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Shallans mother seems to be affiliated with the Skybreakers, and thus presumably known to Nale. And Nale might be insane, but I doubt that he would leave Chana/another Herald trapped in a safe in Lin Davars home. 

There's definitely more to this story that we're missing. There hasn't been a ton of info on Shallan's mother revealed yet. As far as I can remember we don't even know her first name and I feel like there's a reason for that. Shallan also says near the end of RoW that there are still parts of her memory that don't make sense. Some part of her past is still waiting to be revealed.

Maybe what Ookla said is correct, Chana would have a mental illness tied to "obedience." Perhaps she became obedient to Nale or one of his acolytes, to the point that she was willing to kill her own daughter to do what he wanted. I also don't think Nale would really care if Chana's soul was trapped.

And if Chana is not Shallan's mother, I wonder which character that we've seen she could be?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Maybe what Ookla said is correct, Chana would have a mental illness tied to "obedience." Perhaps she became obedient to Nale or one of his acolytes, to the point that she was willing to kill her own daughter to do what he wanted. I also don't think Nale would really care if Chana's soul was trapped.

If Chana was obedient to a fault though, Nale would definitely care about recovering her. He went to great lenghts to get Szeth because Szeths obedience made him a great Skybreaker. Chana would be similar in that aspect. And the Heralds madness doesn't stop them from caring for eachother (which we see with Ash and Taln), and so I doubt that Nale would leave Chana to her fate, after spending literally thousands of years working with her to stop Desolations. 

Edit: Also, the madness of the Heralds seems to be manifesting in opposite ways to their original traits. Ishar, who used to be pious and guinding, is now claiming that he is a god, and only seeks to gain glory for himself, instead of advicing others. Jezrien, who used to lead, became a drunk and a beggar. Nale, who is supposed to be confident, now seems to rely solely upon the will or advice of others. Ash, honest and creative, spends her time destroying art under false identity. And Kalak, who is supposed to be resolute, is... well, not very resolute at all. So Chana would more likely be a coward or some kind of disobedient anarchist.

Edited by Toaster Retribution
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, HoidvsVoid said:

I was thinking of something similar a couple of days ago, but was thinking that maybe Shallan herself was the herald Chanaranach.

That could explain her mental instability, multiple shardblades, and Wit's early special attention given to her.

 

I believe that it is fairly well accepted that Nale was the only the Herald to join the Knights Radiants and bond a spren. I don't know how specifically this has been stated, but if Shallan were Chana, it simply wouldn't be true, and unless there is some loophole, it doesn't seem like something that would be said so clearly.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Ishar said:

I believe that it is fairly well accepted that Nale was the only the Herald to join the Knights Radiants and bond a spren. I don't know how specifically this has been stated, but if Shallan were Chana, it simply wouldn't be true, and unless there is some loophole, it doesn't seem like something that would be said so clearly.

You are right for the most part. That is one of the many questions about the theory. The answer to that one would be that Nale said "I believe I am the only Herald to have joined their order".

With that wording you can 1: Say that he said he "believes", but it isn't a fact (unless there is another source like a WoB that I am unfamiliar with). or 2: That Nale meant Herald joining their OWN order, and not referring to Heralds joining other orders.

Like I said, many questions on it. Some can be given a stretched answer, some probably can't..

Edited by HoidvsVoid
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

If Sanderson does a Reddit AMA again and I have a chance to ask him something, this will be my question!

Isn't he doing a YouTube Q&A on Thursday?

Also, I REALLY love the direction this theory is headed. I've been thinking of what other Truths Shallan can say to keep levelling up. "My mother was a Herald" or "I am a Herald" would be REALLY juicy.

Question: Do we know if the Truth she spoke at the end of RoW counted as Oathing Up? The one she said in Restares' house?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 13/12/2020 at 10:05 PM, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

I'm probably way overthinking this but did we ever find out why Shallan felt her "mother's soul" in her father's safe? I know the Testament-blade was locked in there, but that shouldn't be her mother's soul that she feels. Unless I'm missing something.

That scene makes me think of the gemstone knife that you can use to trap Heralds' souls. So I had the crazy thought that Shallan's mother was a Herald and somehow she actually trapped her mother's soul. Her mother being a Herald would explain why the cryptics are willing to bond her twice.

It's a WoB (well, technically a Word of Peter) that Chanaranach has been seen onscreen in the first two books:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/310/#e9123

We also don't know anything about the location of Vedel.

So that's two female Heralds, one of which we know has been seen in the books, with their locations unaccounted for.

The one thing that gives me pause is I would assume her soul would eventually evaporate like Jezrien's did, and then Kelek should know that another Herald has entered the Beyond. But I wanted to throw this theory out there to get the community's thoughts.

I'm well prepared to be totally shot down if I'm forgetting some detail that disproves this...

Now I can't double check this as my stupid pc kindle app is refusing to load, and I don't have the patience to try and find the relevant section in my physical copy at the moment, but as far as I can remember fom my reading of it it was just the blade she saw in the safe (even though it wasn't there) and equated that with her mother's soul. That's what, to most people there, shard blades seem to do, burn out souls, so it would have, in her young mind, been in there along with the sword that did it. But admittedly I am not certain I am remembering it correctly as it has been a while.

So I don't think her mother was a herald, but I have been wrong before!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quick question,wouldn't jasnah have shared the potraits she got from Wit with the top radiants and if she did,wouldn't shallan have gone like "Hey,thats my mom!"

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

quick question,wouldn't jasnah have shared the potraits she got from Wit with the top radiants and if she did,wouldn't shallan have gone like "Hey,thats my mom!"

Unless Formless was suppressing those memories...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/13/2020 at 5:05 PM, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

The one thing that gives me pause is I would assume her soul would eventually evaporate like Jezrien's did, and then Kelek should know that another Herald has entered the Beyond. But I wanted to throw this theory out there to get the community's thoughts.

What if Chanarach really does die from Shallan's shard blade and go to Braize and it's actually her that breaks, not Taln?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 11thHerald said:

What if Chanarach really does die from Shallan's shard blade and go to Braize and it's actually her that breaks, not Taln?

Hmm that's an interesting theory. I think RoW sets up that the voidspren had to find a way around the Oathpact breaking because Taln wouldn't break, so they manipulated the listeners instead. But it's possible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sanderson answered my question on his current live stream! I asked him if Heralds can procreate. He said "yes, not necessarily in the traditional way but yes they can procreate." So that means this theory is at least potentially valid.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ScarecrowBoat716 said:

Sanderson answered my question on his current live stream! I asked him if Heralds can procreate. He said "yes, not necessarily in the traditional way but yes they can procreate." So that means this theory is at least potentially valid.

OK, theory tangent: There is a theory that Shallan is Chanarach. There is a theory that Chanarach is Shallan's mom. Brandon just said Heralds can procreate, but not in the traditional way. How, then, would a Herald procreate?

Mraize said something to the gist of: Thaidakar has not visited Roshar in person, but his Avatar has.

So we know Cognitive shadows can create an avatar of themselves.

NEW THEORY: Shallan is Chanarach's Avatar.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2020-12-14 at 5:25 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

There has been a bunch of Chana-hunts over the years. The most popular theory is that she is Liss, the assassin Jasnah employs at the start of WoR. I personally think that she is Vedel, if she is a Herald at all. Another theory that popped up was that she was the prostitute Adolin saved in WoK. I have never seen that theory that she is Shallans mother though. It is interesting, but I doubt that would be the case. Partially because Shallans mother seems to be affiliated with the Skybreakers, and thus presumably known to Nale. And Nale might be insane, but I doubt that he would leave Chana/another Herald trapped in a safe in Lin Davars home.  

It would explain why Name never came to kill Shallan (he wouldn't kill a herald's child)

 

Also, the livestream confirmed they can have children somehow (maybe not the simplest way). 

Edited by teknopathetic
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they are cognitive shadows they may have to splinter to procreate. Lil mini me..them ...Heralds. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.