Kaladin's Mental Health Depiction Appreciation

[Frustration]

Personally RoW messed up on this, Brandon felt he had to tone back Kal because 2020 and all but I feel that without whatever was there Kal just didn't feel right. There was a dissonance there that wasn't there in WoK, and I'm kind of upset by it.

[Kyn]

28 minutes ago, Frustration said:

There was a dissonance there that wasn't there in WoK, and I'm kind of upset by it.

Would you feel like expanding on that?

We’ve had several perspectives on this book wallowing too much in the actual experience of depression, but I get the impression from you saying Kal was toned down that you think it didn’t go far enough in its depiction. Or that you don’t see circumstances meriting Kal’s reaction. And I’m sure I’m misinterpreting, either way.

[Frustration]

14 minutes ago, Kyn said:

Would you feel like expanding on that?

We’ve had several perspectives on this book wallowing too much in the actual experience of depression, but I get the impression from you saying Kal was toned down that you think it didn’t go far enough in its depiction. Or that you don’t see circumstances meriting Kal’s reaction. And I’m sure I’m misinterpreting, either way.

In WoK I felt Kal, truely felt it, in RoW, it was kind of just said. Which really bugged me, if it had been up to me there would have been more time dedicated to showing us Kal's mental state, it felt more like I was watching someone else feel things instead of feeling it myself, Kal seemed like a secondary character in his own chapter which was disapointing.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Frustration

[Kyn]

On 1/18/2021 at 7:07 PM, Frustration said:

In WoK I felt Kal, truely felt it, in RoW, it was kind of just said. Which really bugged me, if it had been up to me there would have been more time dedicated to showing us Kal's mental state, it felt more like I was watching someone else feel things instead of feeling it myself, Kal seemed like a secondary character in his own chapter which was disapointing.

Completely agree on wanting more time dedicated to the mental state, but I suspect it would have been overkill for a lot of readers. Partly because of exactly where I felt differently than you did, that it seemed to me like these chapters did an excellent job of sucking us down into Kaladin’s clinically-depressed fugue state.

Thanks, I hadn’t figured out what about these chapters felt so true to life for long-running depression to me, but I suspect it’s exactly what you said: that it felt more like watching somebody else feel things instead of feeling it myself.

That’s what it feels like, to me, to be in the almost-apathetic state where inability to sleep effectively, horror from impotence in the face of friends being hurt, and the crushing weight of everything, all compounded over months leaves you distanced from yourself. Like you’re left kind of watching your life numbly instead of doing and wanting and feeling things.

It’s nicely accentuated by the moments of incomprehensible pain from his nightmares, the constant self-doubt and -castigation, and the erasure of self in order to function to perform his duty when needed. I can see where it might feel more like these scenes were telling about depression than showing us Kaladin’s experience with depression, but that felt real to me.

[Briar King]

I have zero real life experience with depression but I’m 100% in support mode irl for people that need treatment esp our Vets. Kaladin works my nerves to the ninth degree though...I can’t get excited when he does something balling because I know afterwards he will spiral down again for a few hundred pages. Him and Shallan are just exhausting characters to read in these very large books getting hammered over the head over and over again. I had no issues with Vin in Mistborn but those two characters are just hard to get behind in SLA.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

on the bright side, both shallan and kaladin it seems have for the most part gotten to the peak of their mountain, and won't get hammered anymore.

[lightshaper123]

Personally I loved Kalidan's mental health struggles in this book. As someone who struggles with depression, his experiences hit me hard. I think that for some people it might be overkill to have him so depressed, but it really makes me feel, and I appreciate that. The scene where he breaks down in his room gave me chills, because I've had the exact same thing happen to me. I love when Adolin and Syl come in to try to help, and eventually get him to go out. That's one of my favorite chapters, I love the friendship between those two. Admittedly, because of how I relate to it sometimes reading those parts can be hard, but I also love the depth of which he feels. 

The scene where Hesina convinces Lirin to ask why Noril has painted the glyph on his head resonates with me so much too. Noril explains that Kal gives him hope, he feels that because Kal can get up every day and fight, so can he. That's really the main reason I love these. Because I see him push forward, with the help of friends, and come out stronger at the end. It is so so powerful for me, because I see his pain, but I feel hope that I can feel happy again too, and push through like Kal does.

The part with Tien made me cry, because it impacts Kal so much. Tien gives him hope and love, and Kal finally allows himself to feel that love. And the next part with Kaladin saving Syl was also so beautiful, that chapter is probably my favorite in the book.

Anyway, that was super long, but those are my feelings.

[Jondesu]

I have Major Depressive Disorder, which means I don’t get bouts of depression like some others were saying they do, it’s all the storming time. I fight through the gloom occasionally, but like Kaladin, it finds its way back when I give it the slightest chance.

I absolutely love reading his viewpoints. I don’t have PTSD, exactly, no severe trauma, though I have chronic pain that’s been suggested it could be causing something similar, but the symptoms seem different from what Kaladin goes through. Yet, I identify so much with his struggles of self-worth and not feeling like he can save those around him, even though that’s not the same struggle I go through. I feel like I can’t provide for my family due to chronic health issues, and I feel like I can’t be a friend to anyone because I can’t be there for them. So much of Kaladin’s struggle resonates even though his is a more extreme version.

[Daughter of Tanavast]

I feel for everyone in this thread, both those with love for Kaladin and frustration. But personally, I do love Kal's storyline. I suffer from anxiety, depression, and PTSD (although not from anything nearly as extreme as most people). Kaladin saved me. 

When Oathbringer came out, I had just experienced the things that gave me most of my PTSD. I was feeling broken, as Teft put it. Reading the end of OB, where Kaladin was unable to swear the fourth ideal but was never belittled for it, really gave me so much hope. It helped me realize for the first time that I didn't have to be perfect, and that it was okay to ask for help. 

When RoW was released, I'd been put on anxiety/depression medication and had consistent therapy sessions, so I was doing a lot better (still am). But his chapters were still so visceral and made me think of myself. Even though I understand why some people think the constant depression chapters were a slog and too much to get through, for me, it was constant validation that it was okay to feel like that for an extended period of time. It helped me realize that sometimes, things don't get better immediately. As long as you keep trying, keep pushing, there is always hope. That's what Kaladin taught me. And of course, the Dog and the Dragon and the Tien chapters made me sob (I still sob through each reread haha). 

For me, Kaladin really is an inspiration, and is definitely my comfort character, if that makes sense.

[Daughter of Tanavast]

On 1/19/2021 at 6:50 PM, Kyn said:

Thanks, I hadn’t figured out what about these chapters felt so true to life for long-running depression to me, but I suspect it’s exactly what you said: that it felt more like watching somebody else feel things instead of feeling it myself.

That’s what it feels like, to me, to be in the almost-apathetic state where inability to sleep effectively, horror from impotence in the face of friends being hurt, and the crushing weight of everything, all compounded over months leaves you distanced from yourself. Like you’re left kind of watching your life numbly instead of doing and wanting and feeling things.

Also, this is real. Thank you for putting this into words, Kyn, because you're absolutely right for many types of depression (my own included). It's painful, watching yourself doing things from a distance. And you're right, Kaladin exemplifies this perfectly.

[Nogo]

2 hours ago, elijahkrieger4 said:

It's refreshing to see a character who struggles with depression and PTSD and whose struggles aren't just magically cured by a single event. As someone who has dealt with depression, I can appreciate Kaladin's journey's authenticity.
I also loved the scene where Adolin and Style take Kaladin out to the bar. It's a great reminder that sometimes, even the smallest gestures from friends can make a huge difference in someone's mental health.

^  This.  All of this.  So much so

[The_Milkgod]

On 1/19/2021 at 8:50 PM, Kyn said:

That’s what it feels like, to me, to be in the almost-apathetic state where inability to sleep effectively, horror from impotence in the face of friends being hurt, and the crushing weight of everything, all compounded over months leaves you distanced from yourself. Like you’re left kind of watching your life numbly instead of doing and wanting and feeling things.

haven't seen this put to words so well.

[Treamayne]

For those that may be unaware, you might find the Altered Perceptions (Coppermind and Sanderson.com links) Anthology interesting. I posted about it in this post and included excerpts from the Forward, ToC, Introduction and Brandon's Essay. The contribution from Sanderson was chapters from Way of Kings Prime (years before the Kickstarter that released the full version), but the real gems of this anthology are the personal essays from each contributor (and the fact that proceeds go to mental health charities).

Excerpt of an excerpt (so you know if you want to follow any of those links to learn more):

Spoiler

Excerpt from Sanderson's Essay on Kaladin in Altered Perceptions:

I would spend nearly ten years reworking Kaladin, drilling down to who he was and who he needed to be. At the same time, I met my wife and fell in love. I began to see how people with depression are treated in the media and books, and I started to wonder. Where are our fantasy heroes with depression? This disease affects a huge percentage of the population. Does every character with depression need to be relegated to being in a story only about their illness? Couldn’t we have a character who was heroic, dynamic, interesting—and, oh, by the way, he has depression. Not something for the story to be about, just something that—like exists in so many of our lives—is another aspect of who he is, that reflects his worldview.

Personal note:

Spoiler

I am not affiliated with the publisher or charity in any way - I just really liked that Anthology. My personal brushes with mental health are mostly familial. While I have some combat "issues" (about 80 months in-country between 05-13), what really brings the lesson of acceptance home for me is my brother, who had is first self-harm ideation at 12 years old (I was 8) when I had to talk him out of swallowing a bottle of pills one-at-a-time "until I sleep and never wake." He still struggles with depression and self-harm compulsions 40 years later (even more so now that he has been diagnosed with cancer).

So, sharing the messages found in this book (and others) is important to me, so I hope I don't come off as a spammer or salesman.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Treamayne
Excerpts