Thaidakar disappointment

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Is anyone else sad to find out that Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods. If what Mraize said about their goals is true, they’re basically cartoon bad guys. Kelsier gave up a Shard to save the world and is now running an organization as crappy as the Ghostbloods? They better have a more serious goal than trying to smuggle Investiture across Shadesmar.

[the_archduke]

Kelsier gave up a shard because he was barely holding it as a cognitive shadow and he couldn't beat Ruin.  Not because he didn't want power. 

Brandon is setting up the endgame of the Cosmere.  Roshar vs Scadrial in a cold war.  Read the excerpt from the unpublished sixth of the dusk story. 

I also think we are forgetting how much of a cremling Kelsier was.  He is a murderer and a sociopath.  He was only a hero because the villains on Scadrial were worse.  Nothing the ghostbloods have done is remotely out of character for Kelsier.  He is ruthless and always had a God- complex.   His redeeming quality is that he wants to keep "his" people safe, and we have been emotionally invested in his people. 

[Elegy]

[[Mistborn spoilers, of course!]]

Brandon definitely has some explaining to do. Kelsier is a thief, but he always stole to spite oppressors. He is also convinced that he's a messiah, but he couldn't keep up that charade if he didn't also act like one to some degree. He has a God complex, but that God complex includes being a savior (which he was, for several people several times). I always thought that those who saw Kelsier in line with the Ghostbloods' plans had a simplified view on Kelsier. Now that they've been right, Brandon needs to prove he didn't flanderize the character.

---

55 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Kelsier gave up a shard because he was barely holding it as a cognitive shadow and he couldn't beat Ruin.  Not because he didn't want power.

Kelsier also almost jumped into an enemy army because he couldn't bear his supporters being murdered, and only Vin kept him from it. If he had been interested in power first and foremost, his plan wouldn't have included dying. He would have made sure he became the Lord Ruler's successor, which he didn't. He died, because he wanted to be a messiah, and because he wanted the Lord Ruler to fall - which could all be seen as egoistic reasons -, but not because he wanted power.

On a side-note, could you please refrain from mentioning anything about Sixth 2 outside of spoiler boxes? Brandon has said it's spoiler-y and many people have not read it for that reason, including me.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Elegy

[GroundPetrel]

I think that the Ghostbloods' endgame is not Kelsier's endgame, and that Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow is not able to exercise direct control over their operations.  Further, who knows how centuries as a Cognitive Shadow being literally worshipped by two religions that he set up has affected Kelsier's psyche?  

Also, Kelsier always was an egomaniac motivated by selfish revenge and tribalism, to the point that I distinctly remember a WOB implicitly suggesting that he had been affected somehow by Odium (somebody asked about Odium possibly visiting Scadrial and BS pointed out that Kelsier's hatred of nobles was extreme even by skaa standards, with less personal reason to hate the nobles as opposed to the Lord Ruler). Kelsier's interactions with nobles in Mistborn 1 often come off as a serial killer finding convenient justifications to indulge in his bloodlust; for example, we're introduced to him brutally murdering a noble and his entire manor full of guards for doing something that Dockson later points out happens every day, all across the Final Empire.  Not that Tresting doesn't deserve it (he does, even if he is just a cog in the machine), but Kelsier basically just goes in, kills everything that moves other than Tresting's victim, sets the whole place on fire, dumps the girl outside her mom's hut and continues on his merry way.  As the skaa elder notes afterwards, he basically forced them to flee and scrape out an even more miserable existence hiding in caves.  They were in a horrible situation where every single option was bad, and Kelsier gave them a choice between one of the worse options, and the worst option.  He didn't stick around to lend a hand, didn't lead them anywhere, just did some killing and left the skaa to fend for themselves, when they're exhausted and worked to the bone every day and have spent their whole lives on the plantation as slaves.  

I don't think that the Ghostbloods being bad guys in this way necessarily means that Kelsier is being written out of character.  He has a plan, he's justified it to himself with theoretical good things that he thinks will come out of it, and he's perfectly happy to burn people to get away with it. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Is anyone else sad to find out that Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods. If what Mraize said about their goals is true, they’re basically cartoon bad guys. Kelsier gave up a Shard to save the world and is now running an organization as crappy as the Ghostbloods? They better have a more serious goal than trying to smuggle Investiture across Shadesmar.

I’ve felt Thaidakar could be Kell based on the GBs feeling like the Crew to me, so...

But let’s deal with the actual issue. What Mraize said is NOT the GBs real goal. This is Kelsier. Shallan isn’t a crew member; she’s a preliminary member of a single branch. Anything she’s told, while not a lie, is not what the GBs are truly after. Investiture, to paraphrase another great trickster, is just a way of keeping score. The GBs may want it, but they don’t CARE about it. It’s just a bonus.

Similarly, Kalak. That’s much closer to a real truth; getting Kell offworld is definitely a GB goal. But it still isn’t their real one. It’s a general, long term goal that happens to coincide with what they actually want.

But what they want? That’s a secret that, going by Kell’s previous plans, will only be evident in hindsight. We’re seeing the balls tossed in the air, but we can’t see the pattern. And now that the jugglers been confirmed, we know there is one.

So what do we actually know?

The GBs have a real beef with the SoH. That’s the ONE constant throughout. They wanted Gavilar dead. They wanted Amaram dead. They’ve done everything they could to endure the SoH were wiped out. Whatever they’re up to, the answer is in the ONLY consistent goal we’ve seen.

We have one other real hint:

“Iyatil has reported to Master Thaidakar,” Mraize said, “and he has accepted—after some initial anger—that we will not be able to control the Oathgates. I explained that there at least is a calming wind in this, like the riddens of a storm. With Dalinar controlling the Oathgates, he can prosecute the war against Odium.”

 “And that helps your cause?”

“We have no interest in seeing the enemy rule this world, Shallan.”

Reading between the lines, it seems the GBs may have intended Dalinar to have the Oathgates; they just wanted to be in control of their use. They may not be willing to acknowledge it, but they aren’t neutral third parties. They do not want Odium winning, which means they back the coalition. The GBs are antagonists, yes, but they’re antagonists on the PROTAGONISTS‘ side. Quietly, of course.

But what they’re really up to? Shallan doesn’t know. Mraize and Iyatil don't know. No one does, except Kelsier himself. Plots behind plots, plans within plans. There is ALWAYS another secret.

[Knight of Iron]

8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Is anyone else sad to find out that Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods. If what Mraize said about their goals is true, they’re basically cartoon bad guys. Kelsier gave up a Shard to save the world and is now running an organization as crappy as the Ghostbloods? They better have a more serious goal than trying to smuggle Investiture across Shadesmar.

The "smuggling Investiture across Shadesmar" is a short-term goal. It's so Kelsier can get off-world, as he is a Cognitive Shadow made up of Investiture that can't leave Scadrial. Why does he want to get off-world? What does he have planned for the rest of the cosmere? That's where it gets interesting.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Knight of Iron

[Toaster Retribution]

First off, the Ghostbloods really aren't a crappy organization. They appear to actually know how to find Yolen, which I think not even Khriss has figured out. They have also assassinated several highprinces and would have had Jasnah killed if she hadn't been able to teleport. Add in that know much more about what is going on on Roshar than any of our main cast of characters except Hoid, Taravangian and maaaybe Jasnah. The Ghostbloods are defenitely the most powerful and dangerous of the secret societies, which does say something, considering that both The Diagram and the Skybreakers have a record of getting stuff done. 

And the black-marketeering of investiture is probably not their endgame. It does make sense for Kelsier as a sub-goal however. He is a thief, and knows first-hand the importance of resources and monopoly when it comes to achieving power. Plus, Kelsier would black-market stuff just for shits and giggles. He likes being the genius who plans ahead, he likes dealing with criminal elements, he enjoys being the scoundrel and the rogue. 

So yes, it does defenitely make sense for Kelsier to be running the Ghostbloods.

8 hours ago, the_archduke said:

I also think we are forgetting how much of a cremling Kelsier was.  He is a murderer and a sociopath.  He was only a hero because the villains on Scadrial were worse.  Nothing the ghostbloods have done is remotely out of character for Kelsier.  He is ruthless and always had a God- complex.   His redeeming quality is that he wants to keep "his" people safe, and we have been emotionally invested in his people. 

I do however disagree with this statement. Kelsier is not a straight-up villain. He has the capacity to care for people. Sure, he fought the Lord Ruler to show off, and to be worshipped, but also because he genuinely loved Mare and wanted a world in which her dreams would be realized. He genuinely loved Vin, since he saved Elend, a noble, for her sake. He genuinely cared for his brother, and for the skaa who were slaughtered. So no, Kelsier isn't a villain, but he isn't a hero either. He is in between, which is what makes him so fascinating in the first place. 

[GroundPetrel]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do however disagree with this statement. Kelsier is not a straight-up villain. He has the capacity to care for people. Sure, he fought the Lord Ruler to show off, and to be worshipped, but also because he genuinely loved Mare and wanted a world in which her dreams would be realized. He genuinely loved Vin, since he saved Elend, a noble, for her sake. He genuinely cared for his brother, and for the skaa who were slaughtered. So no, Kelsier isn't a villain, but he isn't a hero either. He is in between, which is what makes him so fascinating in the first place. 

Kelsier is only a hero because the Lord Ruler is so freaking bad and his regime is insanely sadistic and totalitarian.  He's not that different from Miles Hundredlives, and on Roshar he'd be much closer to Moash than Kaladin.  (since even the nastiest society on Roshar, namely Alethkar, is orders of magnitude less evil than the Final Empire, Kelsier's more sociopathic tendencies would stick out a lot more.  And I never thought I'd prefer blatantly imperialistic warmongering chauvanistic slavers to anyone, but somehow, the Lord Ruler manages to make Leopold II of Belgium look almost kind and good-natured by comparison, and Leopold's henchmen's lesser crimes included literally eating babies)

Kelsier isn't a puppy-kicking psycho, he's smart and knows he's not a very good person and does seem to wish he were a better or at least less broken person a couple of times, so there's no way he's going to be cool with Odium winning, even TaravOdium, but if it comes down to Spook's distant family vs. the entire population of Roshar, I bet you my life savings he'd choose some 16th generation descendant of that kid he liked over the millions of people on that windswept barren rock.  

...honestly, now that I'm sitting down and thinking about it, Kelsier is such a broken mess, like most other Final Empire-era Scadrians, I almost want him to succeed in whatever his plan is just to see if a Cognitive Shadow messily stapled to a body via Hemalurgy can bond a spren.  

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

Kelsier is only a hero because the Lord Ruler is so freaking bad and his regime is insanely sadistic and totalitarian.  He's not that different from Miles Hundredlives, and on Roshar he'd be much closer to Moash than Kaladin.  (since even the nastiest society on Roshar, namely Alethkar, is orders of magnitude less evil than the Final Empire, Kelsier's more sociopathic tendencies would stick out a lot more.  And I never thought I'd prefer blatantly imperialistic warmongering chauvanistic slavers to anyone, but somehow, the Lord Ruler manages to make Leopold II of Belgium look almost kind and good-natured by comparison, and Leopold's henchmen's lesser crimes included literally eating babies)

Kelsier isn't a puppy-kicking psycho, he's smart and knows he's not a very good person and does seem to wish he were a better or at least less broken person a couple of times, so there's no way he's going to be cool with Odium winning, even TaravOdium, but if it comes down to Spook's distant family vs. the entire population of Roshar, I bet you my life savings he'd choose some 16th generation descendant of that kid he liked over the millions of people on that windswept barren rock.  

...honestly, now that I'm sitting down and thinking about it, Kelsier is such a broken mess, like most other Final Empire-era Scadrians, I almost want him to succeed in whatever his plan is just to see if a Cognitive Shadow messily stapled to a body via Hemalurgy can bond a spren.  

Per one WoB, Kelsier could actually act as the Spren and bond someone else, lol.

I think Kell would make a decent Willshaper. It’s the Order he fits best. But I think the Cryptics would be more interested in him. He’s a conman, and that would fascinate them.

[Frustration]

37 minutes ago, GroundPetrel said:

since even the nastiest society on Roshar, namely Alethkar, is orders of magnitude less evil than the Final Empire,

Why do you say Alethkar specifically?

[GroundPetrel]

6 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Why do you say Alethkar specifically?

Institutionalized slavery, militaristic imperialism and jingoism, the hardest and cruelest class divide we've seen in the series.  No other mortal state we've seen on Roshar is quite so aggressively nasty as a society.  

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Per one WoB, Kelsier could actually act as the Spren and bond someone else, lol.

I think Kell would make a decent Willshaper. It’s the Order he fits best. But I think the Cryptics would be more interested in him. He’s a conman, and that would fascinate them.

XD now THAT would be crazy but awesome!  Or awesome but crazy.  

[Gyirin]

I think the Ghostbloods appear to be evil mostly because they're seen from the eyes of the protagonist/'good guys'.

[Elegy]

16 minutes ago, Gyirin said:

I think the Ghostbloods appear to be evil mostly because they're seen from the eyes of the protagonist/'good guys'.

Probably, but it being in or out of character for Kelsier isn't that much about the Ghostbloods being evil or not evil, or Kelsier being evil or not evil. It's about how they operate. When Kelsier recruited Vin, he was like a father to her, just like he was a friend to every member of his crew. Veil has had much of the same potential and Mraize completely wasted it by always trying to play her and messing with her psyche. His way of treating people is the exact opposite of what Kelsier would approve of (note how he treats Lift, literally waiting for an excuse to "hunt" her, when she is actually very close to Vin in many ways). I'm well aware that this can be explained with something along the lines of "Kelsier isn't there to control what his subordinates do, so they do things he wouldn't like", but well, that's exactly what my point is: It needs to be explained. The way it is, it seems a stretch to me. (Although I want it to be clear that I'm not against it. Kelsier is an exciting character and I'm always up to more of him! I'm merely skeptical.)

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

Probably, but it being in or out of character for Kelsier isn't that much about the Ghostbloods being evil or not evil, or Kelsier being evil or not evil. It's about how they operate. When Kelsier recruited Vin, he was like a father to her, just like he was a friend to every member of his crew. Veil has had much of the same potential and Mraize completely wasted it by always trying to play her and messing with her psyche. His way of treating people is the exact opposite of what Kelsier would approve of (note how he treats Lift, literally waiting for an excuse to "hunt" her, when she is actually very close to Vin in many ways). I'm well aware that this can be explained with something along the lines of "Kelsier isn't there to control what his subordinates do, so they do things he wouldn't like", but well, that's exactly what my point is: It needs to be explained. The way it is, it seems a stretch to me. (Although I want it to be clear that I'm not against it. Kelsier is an exciting character and I'm always up to more of him! I'm merely skeptical.)

I very much got the feeling that Mraize is both: a: much lower on the hierarchy than Shallan realizes, but wants to be higher on it and b: is not in his usual job.

Specifically, I think Mraize and Iyatil were ordered to hunt certain things on Roshar. Kalak, Urithiru, etc. They were two members of a specialized team. Then Mraize ended up forming a bond with Veil/Shallan and was ordered to recruit her, with the indication that if he could prove he was capable as more than a hunter he would be moved up in the GB ranks.

Thing is, Mraize really isn’t. And it shows. Thaidakar isn’t going to be more than mildly bothered by Mraize though. Iyatil will get the brunt of her master’s wrath.

[OrangeCat]

I don't know what the GB goal is right now, but the first place my mind went after finding out that worldhoppers had some hand in bringing the Everstorm to Roshar and then finding out Kelsier was the leader of the Ghostbloods was that Kelsier (or rather, people working for him) might have been part of the plot to bring the Everstorm to Roshar. (There might be info that contradicts that in RoW, I’ll have to pay more attention on my next read.)

But I think it would be 100% on-brand for Kelsier to see a parallel between the Skaa and Parshmen and have done something like that to free the Parshmen from slavery, regardless of the potential for collateral damage (and maybe there is some other goal he’s going for that was furthered by this as well :shrug:). Not necessarily the actions of a "villain" from his point of view, but definitely him doing a thing that PoV of the stormlight archive sets up as very bad.

[Aspiring Writer]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:32 AM, Elegy said:

Kelsier also almost jumped into an enemy army because he couldn't bear his supporters being murdered, and only Vin kept him from it. If he had been interested in power first and foremost, his plan wouldn't have included dying. He would have made sure he became the Lord Ruler's successor, which he didn't. He died, because he wanted to be a messiah, and because he wanted the Lord Ruler to fall - which could all be seen as egoistic reasons -, but not because he wanted power.

If you remember, the Ghostbloods do not like anyone killing their own, so kelsier is still against the killing of his supporters. If you're with him, he'll protect you, if you're against him, he won't. Remember, he killed skaa who sided with the Great houses and worked as gaurds. He saw them as traitors. 

 

Edit: also, the only thing that I have been against that the Ghostbloods have done and feels a tad out of character for Kelsier would be giving Lift as a present to Rabional. I don't think Kelsier would approve of that ever for anyone, much less lift who is similar to Vin in many ways. However, it's Mraize that does this, not Kelsier or his order that he decided to catch her, so there's that. Also, Mraize says he's been waiting for an excuse to hunt Lift, which makes me think he may have been forbidden by Kelsier to hunt her.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Aspiring Writer

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, OrangeCat said:

I don't know what the GB goal is right now, but the first place my mind went after finding out that worldhoppers had some hand in bringing the Everstorm to Roshar and then finding out Kelsier was the leader of the Ghostbloods was that Kelsier (or rather, people working for him) might have been part of the plot to bring the Everstorm to Roshar. (There might be info that contradicts that in RoW, I’ll have to pay more attention on my next read.)

But I think it would be 100% on-brand for Kelsier to see a parallel between the Skaa and Parshmen and have done something like that to free the Parshmen from slavery, regardless of the potential for collateral damage (and maybe there is some other goal he’s going for that was furthered by this as well :shrug:). Not necessarily the actions of a "villain" from his point of view, but definitely him doing a thing that PoV of the stormlight archive sets up as very bad.

This is contradicted by the GBs stating that they do not want Odium winning and hinting that one reason for the capture of Urithiru was to give Dalinar a way to propagate the war.

They also really did NOT like the SoH, who had been trying to restore the Desolations.

Kelsier also has no reason to want Odium free, as it will endanger Scadrial.

There is no way Kelsier would have approved of what happened to Lift - with one possible exception. If the GBs think Cultivation is their real threat (which is possible) then they might go after Lift as a tool of Cultivation.

[IndigoAjah]

I'm sure Kel's end game is different from the Ghostbloods and he's probably playing them, to be honest.

 

I'm not sure that means he has a "good" Endgame. He is a manipulative bastard with a mean streak and pretty dark morals. Almost all of his life he has been motivated by greed and self-advancement, and after that revenge, and then by loyalty to his own. But his own are all dead except Saze and Marsh.

 

That he's working with those two is possible. But it's also possible that he's got his own plan in which he gains, now that his reasons for altruism are good and gone. 

 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he had the same aim, with different methods, to Hoid with their parallels. Maybe he's trying to reform Adonalsium but with him as the Holder. He couldn't hold Harmony but would the conflict of Intents exist for Adonalsium approached in a certain Shardic Order? In which case what comes first for Kel? Cultivation would be a possibility. Or the Survival Shard. 

Or maybe, and this would explain his interest in Roshar, he's looking for the Dawnshards. Someone mentioned on Facebook, and I'm not convinced but it's an interesting theory, that in SH 

Spoiler

The voice Kel heard saying Survive reminded them of the voice Rysn hears saying Change. Does Kel have a Dawnshard for Survive/Exist/Continue? That would be a possible Dawnshard command, no?

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

10 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

I'm sure Kel's end game is different from the Ghostbloods and he's probably playing them, to be honest.

 

I'm not sure that means he has a "good" Endgame. He is a manipulative bastard with a mean streak and pretty dark morals. Almost all of his life he has been motivated by greed and self-advancement, and after that revenge, and then by loyalty to his own. But his own are all dead except Saze and Marsh.

 

That he's working with those two is possible. But it's also possible that he's got his own plan in which he gains, now that his reasons for altruism are good and gone. 

 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he had the same aim, with different methods, to Hoid with their parallels. Maybe he's trying to reform Adonalsium but with him as the Holder. He couldn't hold Harmony but would the conflict of Intents exist for Adonalsium approached in a certain Shardic Order? In which case what comes first for Kel? Cultivation would be a possibility. Or the Survival Shard. 

Or maybe, and this would explain his interest in Roshar, he's looking for the Dawnshards. Someone mentioned on Facebook, and I'm not convinced but it's an interesting theory, that in SH 

  Hide contents

The voice Kel heard saying Survive reminded them of the voice Rysn hears saying Change. Does Kel have a Dawnshard for Survive/Exist/Continue? That would be a possible Dawnshard command, no?

 

The Ghostbloods appear to be his new crew, which means they are ‘his’ the way the old crew was. I don’t think he’s changed so much that that wouldn’t be the case.

He is playing them though. Kell played his old crew too. He plays everyone.

I don’t think Kell would want a Shard for himself. He’d want one for Saze, so that Harmony can act.

[IndigoAjah]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Ghostbloods appear to be his new crew, which means they are ‘his’ the way the old crew was. I don’t think he’s changed so much that that wouldn’t be the case.

He is playing them though. Kell played his old crew too. He plays everyone.

I don’t think Kell would want a Shard for himself. He’d want one for Saze, so that Harmony can act.

I'm not 100% sure he and Harmony are still that close. It's been 300 years, Kell is all alone and every Cognitive Shadow we've seen starts to go nuts, and Saze has been holding two warring Intents the whole time. 

 

I definitely think Kell would want a Shard for himself. He's semi-obsessed with Godhood already. He'd tell himself it would be to improve things for everyone, and it would be partly true, but everything I've ever seen from Kell tells me he'd jump at the chance to get that kind of power. 

 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

I'm not 100% sure he and Harmony are still that close. It's been 300 years, Kell is all alone and every Cognitive Shadow we've seen starts to go nuts, and Saze has been holding two warring Intents the whole time. 

 

I definitely think Kell would want a Shard for himself. He's semi-obsessed with Godhood already. He'd tell himself it would be to improve things for everyone, and it would be partly true, but everything I've ever seen from Kell tells me he'd jump at the chance to get that kind of power. 

 

 

He’s a bit too young to be going insane. He’s younger than Vasher, after all.

I don’t think Kell would. Playing God was a means to an end. Being God... I don’t think he wants that. It would just be another trap. And he’s held that power; he knows how it presses against the will of the Vessel. To hold a Shard is to lose himself and Kelsier won’t want that.

Besides, it won’t be very fun. If Kell did hold a Shard he’d just end up bored and give it up. Kelsier doesn’t want power for its own sake; he likes one-upping those more powerful than he is. Being a Shard is boring.

Considering Saze and Kelsier do not appear to be talking, I highly doubt they are currently getting along. But Kell does want Scadrial safe and a dangerously powerful, but ineffective Shard does not equal ‘safe.’ Note that Kell looking to give Sazed an extra Shard is something Sazed very much does NOT want. Kelsier doesn’t care.

[+Oltux72]

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thing is, Mraize really isn’t. And it shows. Thaidakar isn’t going to be more than mildly bothered by Mraize though. Iyatil will get the brunt of her master’s wrath.

That makes perfect sense, except for one thing: the Seon

If Mraize is low level, what resources are at Iyatil's disposal? I have to ask again. How sure are we that the box Shallan took into Shadesmar was the same box that Mraize had given her?

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There is no way Kelsier would have approved of what happened to Lift - with one possible exception. If the GBs think Cultivation is their real threat (which is possible) then they might go after Lift as a tool of Cultivation.

Next to Hoid they seem the best informed.

56 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

I'm not sure that means he has a "good" Endgame. He is a manipulative bastard with a mean streak and pretty dark morals. Almost all of his life he has been motivated by greed and self-advancement, and after that revenge, and then by loyalty to his own. But his own are all dead except Saze and Marsh.

I am afraid I need to point out that he also seems to have been a savior to the Southeners. Sure, he had statues of himself built, but he did help them.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Considering Saze and Kelsier do not appear to be talking, I highly doubt they are currently getting along. But Kell does want Scadrial safe and a dangerously powerful, but ineffective Shard does not equal ‘safe.’ Note that Kell looking to give Sazed an extra Shard is something Sazed very much does NOT want. Kelsier doesn’t care.

When Kelsier met Khrissalla it seemed to me that he internally vowed to never be in a situation of acting without knowing what's going on again. And secondly, he found offworlders to be less than helpful.

[IndigoAjah]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That makes perfect sense, except for one thing: the Seon

If Mraize is low level, what resources are at Iyatil's disposal? I have to ask again. How sure are we that the box Shallan took into Shadesmar was the same box that Mraize had given her?

Next to Hoid they seem the best informed.

I am afraid I need to point out that he also seems to have been a savior to the Southeners. Sure, he had statues of himself built, but he did help them.

When Kelsier met Khrissalla it seemed to me that he internally vowed to never be in a situation of acting without knowing what's going on again. And secondly, he found offworlders to be less than helpful.

Ah yeah, thanks for reminding me. He also has a well established god complex.

 

Anyway, as for Kell not being in this to be a goody twoshoes:

 

Sanderson has repeatedly said that Kell would be a villain in many other circumstances and stories. He wrote him that way. It's amazing that people are surprised that he might turn out to be a villain or at best chaotic neutral character. Sanderson told us this "plot twist" years ago.

Edited December 14, 2020 by IndigoAjah

[Elegy]

8 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Sanderson has repeatedly said that Kell would be a villain in many other circumstances and stories. He wrote him that way. It's amazing that people are surprised that he might turn out to be a villain or at best chaotic neutral character. Sanderson told us this "plot twist" years ago.

But who's denying Kelsier is a maniac and potentially dangerous? Noone in this thread, as far as I know. I think you're setting up a straw man there. People are not surprised by him being a villain. They are surprised that he's the head of a group that doesn't seem to fit his worldview and his view of himself. Imagine Taravangian becoming Lezian the Pursuer between books/book series. Of course Taravangian is not a hero, and chances are he's responsible for even more deaths than Lezian (since we don't know of any devastating large-scale civil wars that one started) ... People would not be surprised by him being a villain, they would be surprised by him being that villain.

(Again the reminder that I don't think it's necessarily wrong for him to be Thaidakar or even a bad decision in general, just that it isn't intuitive and some things about the informations we have at the moment don't add up and need clarification.)

[IndigoAjah]

19 minutes ago, Elegy said:

But who's denying Kelsier is a maniac and potentially dangerous? Noone in this thread, as far as I know. I think you're setting up a straw man there. People are not surprised by him being a villain. They are surprised that he's the head of a group that doesn't seem to fit his worldview and his view of himself. Imagine Taravangian becoming Lezian the Pursuer between books/book series. Of course Taravangian is not a hero, and chances are he's responsible for even more deaths than Lezian (since we don't know of any devastating large-scale civil wars that one started) ... People would not be surprised by him being a villain, they would be surprised by him being that villain.

(Again the reminder that I don't think it's necessarily wrong for him to be Thaidakar or even a bad decision in general, just that it isn't intuitive and some things about the informations we have at the moment don't add up and need clarification.)

Well, I disagree on that too, I think the GBs almost perfectly fit Kell's worldview and MO and actions. As for his view of himself, I'm pretty sure most of the villains don't think they look like villains