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GameOfGroans

So who else did Shallan kill?

42 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, wotbibliophile said:

I think "I'm terrified" is one of her truths and she is on her 4th ideal.

Then she should have Plate.

1 hour ago, wotbibliophile said:

Like this. For whatever reason killing her spren was not her 5th ideal. She has not said her 5th ideal. My proof: she still does not have her shardplate. I expect that to be an awesome moment. It better be awesome Sanderson! :P

She has had the Patternblade at least since the chasms. If she advances she must get Plate. Now in her case it is possible that her advancement varies by personality. There is no known precedent. And in her case we must consider the theory that she had Plate for years and repressed the memory. In fact we may get the nice little logic bomb that her last truth is that there should be no last truth.

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Be careful, my dear readers. You could possibly be next. 

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13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

‘I’m terrified’ may have been accepted by someone who was not Pattern.

I actually like this idea. What if it was accepted by testament? I mean, it’s likely they were with her the whole time. What if cryptics will a accept different truths? Pattern accepting things about shallan’s murders, and testament accepting truths about what Shallan knows to be true about herself?

on another note, I think Shallan doesn’t need to confess more murders. I think she needs to accept that she can forgive herself for what she had done, potentially swearing ideals for both of her spren. I think that would be great. 
 

obviously this is pure speculation, but I really like it thematically.

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The revelation of Testament has me confused as to the total of Truths she's sworn and when she first started using Pattern as a blade. I believe she's on six or so, including the easy Truths she told to Testament.

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18 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

I actually like this idea. What if it was accepted by testament? I mean, it’s likely they were with her the whole time. What if cryptics will a accept different truths? Pattern accepting things about shallan’s murders, and testament accepting truths about what Shallan knows to be true about herself?

on another note, I think Shallan doesn’t need to confess more murders. I think she needs to accept that she can forgive herself for what she had done, potentially swearing ideals for both of her spren. I think that would be great.

obviously this is pure speculation, but I really like it thematically.

Well, Testament is supposed to be deadeyes by then, and Pattern was just starting with Shallan.

It's likely that she made it to level 3 or something with Testament, but then had to start all over again with Pattern. I don't remember her ever actually saying the immortal words, though. I just presumed that a relatively simple truth was taken as the first ideal.

I like your last idea, but RoW says there are still memories to be recovered, and they are not likely to be nice.

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the coppermind says that shallan is on her 4th ideal and admitting to killing her mother was not one of them

also, the child lightweaver truths, that thought is incredibly amusing

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Well, in Brandon's livestream, he basically said: "Shallan's oaths are really complicated, we have to use a big page on it in order to keep it all straight, good luck theorizing on this 17th shard. Muahahahahaha." (I may have paraphrased a bit).

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2 hours ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, in Brandon's livestream, he basically said: "Shallan's oaths are really complicated, we have to use a big page on it in order to keep it all straight, good luck theorizing on this 17th shard. Muahahahahaha." (I may have paraphrased a bit).

Shallan's oaths defy both reality and magic, then. They have a plot armor all by themselves.

 

6 hours ago, Ookla the Squid said:

the coppermind says that shallan is on her 4th ideal and admitting to killing her mother was not one of them

also, the child lightweaver truths, that thought is incredibly amusing

Killing her mother not one of them? Weird. That should be one of the worst.

Also, child Shallan: I ate all the jam and blamed it on Jushu!

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12 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Killing her mother not one of them? Weird. That should be one of the worst.

if it were a truth, she would have gotten her shard-plate in words of radiance, because from what i can tell, all orders of radiance get plate at the 4th ideal.

 

12 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Also, child Shallan: I ate all the jam and blamed it on Jushu!

i thought about that too. i mean, what else would a 11 year old say as a truth. "i like the sun", or "i like to draw". it's really funny to think about it

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3 minutes ago, Ookla the Squid said:

if it were a truth, she would have gotten her shard-plate in words of radiance, because from what i can tell, all orders of radiance get plate at the 4th ideal.

 

i thought about that too. i mean, what else would a 11 year old say as a truth. "i like the sun", or "i like to draw". it's really funny to think about it

I've seen in a couple places people suggesting that her childhood truths could have been related to her family, such as not liking it when her parents fought.

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On 12/14/2020 at 3:43 AM, GameOfGroans said:

Well, Testament is supposed to be deadeyes by then, and Pattern was just starting with Shallan.

It's likely that she made it to level 3 or something with Testament, but then had to start all over again with Pattern. I don't remember her ever actually saying the immortal words, though. I just presumed that a relatively simple truth was taken as the first ideal.

I like your last idea, but RoW says there are still memories to be recovered, and they are not likely to be nice.

I had a similar thought after reading a bunch of these theories.  What if she never had to reswear the Immortal Words with Pattern, but instead was able to use an extra truth to facilitate the bond.  Pattern was way dumber at that point than Syl was at Kaladin's second Ideal

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There was another Cryptic even before Testament that Shallan murdered while a toddler.  Also she killed her twin while in the womb. 

Shallan is a Russian nesting doll of surpressed murder memories.

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So, Shallan's oaths are complicated because she is reconstructing the oaths she swore when she was a child.

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11 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

There was another Cryptic even before Testament that Shallan murdered while a toddler.  Also she killed her twin while in the womb

Shallan is a Russian nesting doll of surpressed murder memories.

Good one  :lol:

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On 12/12/2020 at 1:04 PM, Raven Wilder said:

We know Honor's death was a lingering thing, that he was a long time dying after Odium Splintered him. What if it was Shallan who delivered the coup de grâce on the last living bit of Honor? Yep: Shallan killed God.

Hoid was lying when he said that the only woman on Roshar his age was Cultivation. Shallan has lost all of her memories from the old days, but still vaguely remembers that she killed Adonalsium.

It was her all along!

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Between Lightweavers being weird, Shallan being weird herself, and the First Ideal being weird, it's going to prove difficult for anyone to make an agrument about which Ideal level she has progressed to without an opening for someone else to contest it. 

The First Ideal is said to be the same for every order, but Kaladin for example had never heard it before Teft mentioned it and he had been Surgebinding before then. Also, Lightweavers require truths, not oaths, so does the first ideal even count in terms of measuring how far along in their bond they are? We havn't seen any of the Lightweavers swear this oath or say it onscreen that I recall. 

There is a bunch of random Shallan stuff that is either odd or doesn't make sense. First, she needed a living Shardblade to activate the Oathgate at the end of WoR. Unless there is some reason she was able to circumvent that problem and was able to use Testament, she had to of been at Third Ideal level with Pattern. Though maybe being at Third Ideal level with Testament enabled her to summon Pattern earlier than she should have been able to, that's the only thing I can think of(I think someone asked a question about this on the most recent livestream and it got RAFO'd). Second, I believe the voice she hears in The Way of Kings when she makes her initial foray into Shadesmar is not Pattern's. It's possible his changed when he was pulled into the physical realm, but it's odd. Third, Shallan's Shardblade does not scream when Kaladin touches it in the chasms. If it is Testament, it could be that his bond with Syl was weak enough to the point that touching a deadblade didn't scream in his head. But their bond was not completely dead and the blade did have a Cryptic pattern on it where no other deadblades did. Not to mention all of what we know about deadblades is based on the fact that their original Knight is dead where Shallan is not. Too many contradictions for my taste, but I'm really interested to see what people speculate and what the eventual answer to this will be. 

Personally, I think answering how the First Ideal for Lightweavers works would answer most of these questions. If it counts, then Shallan was using Pattern in the chasms and the Oathgate. If it doesn't, then she had to of been using Testament. Brandon seems to want this one to be speculated on, so I doubt we'll get anything out of him with direct questions on it but maybe we can get some of the smaller bits answered in that upcoming Reddit AMA. 

 

 

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Shallan still having Ideal credits from Testament, and being able to transfer those over to her nahel bond with Pattern, makes a lot of sense. When Kaladin broke one of his oaths and (mostly) killed Syl, he was able to swear the Third Ideal to revive her; he didn't have to start over at the First Ideal and work his way back up.

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