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GameOfGroans

So who else did Shallan kill?

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So it seems that each of Shallan's truth-ideals is that she killed somebody. And it seems to be going (arguably) towards worse and more painful memories. One could say unintentionally killing her spren cannot be worse than killing her mother or father, but considering the circumstances in which she remembers that - recognizing all the consequences for the war with Voidbringers, and potentially ruining Adolin's case and him ending up in prison for life - it can certainly cause just as much anguish and guilt.

Now the Radiant is not integrated yet and it's explicitly said that there are still hidden memories for Shallan to recover. And considering she needs to do it to swear her highest ideal, I doubt it can be something much lighter than the rest. At one point in OB, Shallan herself wonders if she killed her brothers too, and is only hallucinating they are still alive, but Pattern says she didn't kill them. So who else? Did she have a little sister or something? All bets are off  B)

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We know Honor's death was a lingering thing, that he was a long time dying after Odium Splintered him. What if it was Shallan who delivered the coup de grâce on the last living bit of Honor? Yep: Shallan killed God.

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1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Plot twist, she killed herself.

Please let it be so.

 

I honestly don't care who else she killed, I feel less each time it happens and didn't have much to begin with. hopefully we can get an active murder instead of "Oh, it was me." Come on Brandon SHOW don't tell.

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11 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

I honestly don't care who else she killed, I feel less each time it happens and didn't have much to begin with. hopefully we can get an active murder instead of "Oh, it was me." Come on Brandon SHOW don't tell.

Shallan kills Adolin would be very interesting.

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5 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

Shallan kills Adolin would be very interesting.

YES PLESE! That would actually maybe get emotion from me.

Edited by Ookla The Frustrated
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I don't think Shallan killed anyone else. I also think that she has already sworn her final ideal.

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I don't think Shallan killed anyone else. I also think that she has already sworn her final ideal.

Do you mean that she has already sworn her 5th ideal or that she will never swear it? As far is I can tell she’s at four.

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2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Do you mean that she has already sworn her 5th ideal or that she will never swear it? As far is I can tell she’s at four.

She has sworn five ideals. She was a step above Kaladin in WoR, meaning she was fourth ideal. She then swore her fifth ideal in RoW.

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First is always the same, second and third were mom and dad, fourth was her Cryptic, fifth? I’m blanking, what did I miss?

@Ookla the Unnamable

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

First is always the same, second and third were mom and dad, fourth was her Cryptic, fifth? I’m blanking, what did I miss?

No, first was "I'm terrified".

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2 minutes ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

No, first was "I'm terrified".

But what was fifth?

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Just now, SwordNimiForPresident said:

But what was fifth?

That she killed her cryptic.

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5 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Ok can you list all 5? Somehow it’s not working out in my brain.

  1. The Immortal Words
  2. I am terrified
  3. I killed my father
  4. I killed my mother
  5. I killed my Spren

I may have reversed 3 and 4

I would not count #2, but from a purely mathematical viewpoint, she is at five.

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8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:
  1. The Immortal Words
  2. I am terrified
  3. I killed my father
  4. I killed my mother
  5. I killed my Spren

I may have reversed 3 and 4

I would not count #2, but from a purely mathematical viewpoint, she is at five.

Now I’m confused. @Ookla the Unnamable says that “I’m terrified” is her first, but now you’re saying it’s the immortal words.

The coppermind claims that it’s an oath but then links to a chapter that is, frankly, pretty vague on what it was.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Now I’m confused. @Ookla the Unnamable says that “I’m terrified” is her first, but now you’re saying it’s the immortal words.

The coppermind claims that it’s an oath but then links to a chapter that is, frankly, pretty vague on what it was.

Lightweavers are confusing. It is commonly said that they use truths instead of oaths. That is not completely true. They do swear the first oath common to all orders. Hence they have four truths and one oath. A Lightweaver of the second truth is equivalent to a Windrunner or Skybreaker of the third oath, as there is one additional oath.

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7 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Now I’m confused. @Ookla the Unnamable says that “I’m terrified” is her first, but now you’re saying it’s the immortal words.

Sorry, I meant that that was her second oath, first truth.

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1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence they have four truths and one oath. A Lightweaver of the second truth is equivalent to a Windrunner or Skybreaker of the third oath, as there is one additional oath.

True but it is still unclear if there is a one to one correlation between truths and oaths.  IE Shallan's second two oaths could both be part of her overall third ideal.

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

Lightweavers are confusing. It is commonly said that they use truths instead of oaths. That is not completely true. They do swear the first oath common to all orders. Hence they have four truths and one oath. A Lightweaver of the second truth is equivalent to a Windrunner or Skybreaker of the third oath, as there is one additional oath.

Yea that matches what I just read on the Coppermind. It seems odd for Shallan to be the first to reach the fifth ideal, especially since she’s still using a personality fragment to shield herself from past trauma. Are we certain that “I’m terrified” wasn’t just a statement but in fact an oath?

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This is the first I've ever heard of "I'm terrified" being considered one of her Truths.

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15 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Yea that matches what I just read on the Coppermind. It seems odd for Shallan to be the first to reach the fifth ideal,

In terms of years of bondage she is likely to be the second oldest Knight Radiant outside the Skybreakers. Perhaps even the oldest.

15 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

especially since she’s still using a personality fragment to shield herself from past trauma. Are we certain that “I’m terrified” wasn’t just a statement but in fact an oath?

It was acknowledeg to be true. The Lightweavers are confusing, if I am allowed to repeat myself. In fact:

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

True but it is still unclear if there is a one to one correlation between truths and oaths.  IE Shallan's second two oaths could both be part of her overall third ideal.

That is a perfect summary. In addition we do not know whether there is threshold of relevance. Can you advance with a thousand small truths? How relevant to yourself do they have to be? Would

"I always suspected that my parents loved my brothers more." count?

"My wife cheated on me even before we were married." Personal enough?

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‘I’m terrified’ may have been accepted by someone who was not Pattern.

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I think "I'm terrified" is one of her truths and she is on her 4th ideal.

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:
  1. The Immortal Words
  2. I am terrified
  3. I killed my father
  4. I killed my mother

Like this. For whatever reason killing her spren was not her 5th ideal. She has not said her 5th ideal. My proof: she still does not have her shardplate. I expect that to be an awesome moment. It better be awesome Sanderson! :P

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14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Plot twist, she killed herself.

:lol:

13 hours ago, Raven Wilder said:

We know Honor's death was a lingering thing, that he was a long time dying after Odium Splintered him. What if it was Shallan who delivered the coup de grâce on the last living bit of Honor? Yep: Shallan killed God.

Excellent  :D

 

Jokes aside, RoW clearly says there are still memories to be uncovered and a part of her to be integrated, 5th ideal or not.

My spheres are on Helaran. There is a lot about him still covered in smokescreen. In OB, when Adolin tells Shallan Kaladin killed Helaran, Shallan repeatedly tells herself: "Tuck it down. Don't think about it." One could say it's bc she likes Kaladin too, but one could also then notice Shallan usually tucks down and forbids herself to think about things she feels guilty for.

In fact, considering no one clearly recognized the man Kaladin killed, it's possible Shallan killed Helaran to protect their father at some point before killing father too. The two of them were close to physical violence quite a few times. So maybe they go at each other, Shallan stands between them, kills or causes Helaran to be killed, his Shards end up with a different Veden man?

Or bc he is working for Nale, when Nale finds out Shallan is a surgebinder, he sends Helaran to kill her off? Especially considering Shallan killed her mother, so Nale has an excuse to get her executed. (Although, in that case, he probably wouldn't stop hunting her after Helaran's death. Maybe Helaran finds out by himself?)

Pattern did mention there were lies in the way Mraize described Helaran's death. So Pattern knows there is something more Shallan doesn't know. Protecting her from knowledge? And Mraize wanted Shallan to remain splintered.

Also, Radiant, the part of Shallan that is still not integrated, is the one able to deliberately wield Shardblade and kill if necessary (Ialai). So she's denying that part of herself bc she's still denying something she did.

And maybe the last bit of Honor was hiding in Helaran, who knows   :P

Edited by GameOfGroans
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