I don't like this bond

[Frustration]

11 hours ago, dgreene196 said:

 And, for her, she needed to stand up for herself, for what she advocates for to the Sibling, in a way that she never stood up to Gavilar’s lack of faith in her.  She is worthy.

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

[dgreene196]

1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

At no point must the Sibling agree to the bond.  The bond isn't forced.  They choose the bond.  There is Intent behind their choice of Navani.  She is definitely NOT their first choice.  Rlain is the Sibling's first choice (though we do not know whether Rlain would have agreed to that particular bond).  However, she makes a case to the Sibling, that is at least appealing to them - she proposes that Honor isn't truly dead, because his creations, his influence lives on.  She's able to use the Anti-Voidlight tones to push back the Sibling's corruption.  She makes a case the Sibling accepts.  The Sibling is certainly under stress and lacks preferred options, but they still accept that relationship.

As to power over the souls of everything?  There's so much we don't know about Bondsmiths.  We don't know what Navani and the Sibling will be capable of moving forward.  She is not a Bondsmith unbound like Ishar, nor is the Sibling strengthened with Honor's cognitive shadow as is the Stormfather.  She is her own variation of a Bondsmith, on a distinct path with the Sibling.

I think it will be fascinating to see how it all plays out.  But that is just my thoughts on the matter.

[trav]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid your preferences for the story are incompatible with an internally consistent story.

don't be so condescending because someone else doesnt like something as much as you do. 

Syl bonded a nobody. all the Honorspren did. the spren did not go for leaders. 

by that logic any highprince should now be Radiant. somehow it only applies to the Kholins and friends. 

sorry. you may like those sort of fairytale stories. I dont. I prefer stories like Mistborn. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, trav said:

don't be so condescending because someone else doesnt like something as much as you do. 

Syl bonded a nobody.

"Son of Tanavast"

1 hour ago, trav said:

all the Honorspren did. the spren did not go for leaders.

They are Windrunners not Bondsmiths. Yet after the initial bond where did they go? The leader's friends.

1 hour ago, trav said:

by that logic any highprince should now be Radiant. somehow it only applies to the Kholins and friends. 

sorry. you may like those sort of fairytale stories. I dont. I prefer stories like Mistborn. 

The fairy tale is where a nobody from the provinces saves the day. The Stormfather needed a warlord, hence he picked a warlord. We have to face a truth. Dalinar was not picked because he changed from being the Blackthorn, but because at some level he is the Blackthorn.

Burning Rathalas has made possible uniting Roshar.

 

[StanLemon]

People complain about the Sibling being strong armed to bond by the circumstances. The thing is, Dalinar strong armed the Stormfather as well. Both Bondsmith spren have bonded people not because they wanted to but because it was necessary and for the Stormfather at least, it has proven beneficial for him

[wotbibliophile]

I am very against bonding a spren by force. I agree Dalinar, Navani, and Ishar are the same. Equally gross.

@StanLemon We know spren can change through a bond. It would be way more awesome if the spren chose first. 2 willing partners is the only thing that makes that growth and change awesome. For the spren and for the human/singer/listener. Coercion just makes me want to stab someone (to be clear: someone fictional. I'm looking at you Dalinar ).

10 hours ago, dgreene196 said:

At no point must the Sibling agree to the bond.  The bond isn't forced.

The Sibling had the "choice" between bonding Navani and dying. I think by the end of the book the Sibling is making the best of the situation they are in. When the Sibling said Navani was not worthy, that stuck with me. That was enough for me to be against this bond. This is not a judgement on whether or not Navani is worthy. This is about the Sibling. Since it is a bond with the Sibling the Sibling should be able to veto whoever they want. I don't care if the reason is the person eats chickens. It's enough if the Sibling is against it.

[Prymalfire]

Without getting a proper pov of The Sibling, most of this discussion is speculation.

True, The Sibling did not consider Navani worthy. That was when they first met. In the story, I believe that The Sibling begins to

1) Trust Navani

2) Appreciate Navani's intellect

3) See that Navani is willing to work with 'the other' for the good of her people

They bonded through necessity, but they bonded successfully. They are more likely to try to work through their differences together than abandon the bond because of poor first impresssions (especially as a child of Honor himself)

[GameOfGroans]

19 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

 

You keep repeating this oversimplified bias as if repeating it will make it true, while ignoring every post that gives quotes and explanations why it's not the case . Maybe you can change your username into "Ookla the Lightweaver".

[+Oltux72]

19 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

Sometimes, for example in the middle of a war which the fate of a dozen worlds may be at stake in, somebody's wishes, personal growth or emotional state must be disregarded in the face of the common good. And you just do your duty and what needs to be done.
I suggest that that applies in the case of Navani and The Sibling to the fullest extent.

And it needs to be pointed out that The Sibling is merely requested to take a risk while a large number of people actually died defending Urithiru. That is especially worth considering if you essentially are a tower who will inevitably be high on the list of enemy targets. You cannot run away.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Prymalfire said:

Without getting a proper pov of The Sibling, most of this discussion is speculation.

True, The Sibling did not consider Navani worthy. That was when they first met. In the story, I believe that The Sibling begins to

1) Trust Navani

2) Appreciate Navani's intellect

3) See that Navani is willing to work with 'the other' for the good of her people

They bonded through necessity, but they bonded successfully. They are more likely to try to work through their differences together than abandon the bond because of poor first impresssions (especially as a child of Honor himself)

It said she wasn't worthy right before she bonded

5 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

 

You keep repeating this oversimplified bias as if repeating it will make it true, while ignoring every post that gives quotes and explanations why it's not the case . Maybe you can change your username into "Ookla the Lightweaver".

Name calling is not a valid argument.

Addressing your "point" I repeat what I feel, not some vague claim I came up with to justify my hate of a bond that didn't go as I wanted there where several ways it could have gone in a way I would have liked but it didn't. Any quotes presented do nothing to sway me or my opinions and none really prove anything.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sometimes, for example in the middle of a war which the fate of a dozen worlds may be at stake in, somebody's wishes, personal growth or emotional state must be disregarded in the face of the common good. And you just do your duty and what needs to be done.
I suggest that that applies in the case of Navani and The Sibling to the fullest extent.

And it needs to be pointed out that The Sibling is merely requested to take a risk while a large number of people actually died defending Urithiru. That is especially worth considering if you essentially are a tower who will inevitably be high on the list of enemy targets. You cannot run away.

And? I don't understand the argument that everything else should be thrown out because of a threat. Once the Fused left there was a reprieve, and the tower has the ability to still function, which gives time to rebond, that time won't turn the tower off. 

[StanLemon]

13 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I am very against bonding a spren by force. I agree Dalinar, Navani, and Ishar are the same. Equally gross.

@StanLemon We know spren can change through a bond. It would be way more awesome if the spren chose first. 2 willing partners is the only thing that makes that growth and change awesome. For the spren and for the human/singer/listener. Coercion just makes me want to stab someone (to be clear: someone fictional. I'm looking at you Dalinar ).

The Sibling had the "choice" between bonding Navani and dying. I think by the end of the book the Sibling is making the best of the situation they are in. When the Sibling said Navani was not worthy, that stuck with me. That was enough for me to be against this bond. This is not a judgement on whether or not Navani is worthy. This is about the Sibling. Since it is a bond with the Sibling the Sibling should be able to veto whoever they want. I don't care if the reason is the person eats chickens. It's enough if the Sibling is against it.

I can understand where you are coming from. But here is another way to look at it. You see someone doing something self destructive and will endanger more people than just themselves as well. Do you just sit back and wait for them to choose the better option or do you get involved to save not just them but others as well? Even though Dalinar strong armed the Stormfather, the Stormfather could have denied it if he truly wanted to. As for the Sibling, it was like if there was just one person who could save everyone was mortally wounded and they had the option of just letting themselves die or letting the person they don't like very much save them so that they could save everyone else.

[Leuthie]

We have seen two people become Bondsmiths. Both of them require some form of coersion under duress to form the bond. 

While it's a small sample size, one wouldn't be remiss to assume that every Bondsmith was created under duress in a similar fashion. Unity requires political struggle, which usually requires concession and coercion to accomplish. Requiring a future Bondsmith to break through a reticent spren's protests to create the bond actually makes sense if the ultimate goal of Bondsmiths is to unite groups of people.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

We have seen two people become Bondsmiths. Both of them require some form of coersion under duress to form the bond. 

While it's a small sample size, one wouldn't be remiss to assume that every Bondsmith was created under duress in a similar fashion. Unity requires political struggle, which usually requires concession and coercion to accomplish. Requiring a future Bondsmith to break through a reticent spren's protests to create the bond actually makes sense if the ultimate goal of Bondsmiths is to unite groups of people.

This is likely the first time it's happened, the Sibling says it spent years at time choosing a new Bondsmith.

[Leuthie]

4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

This is likely the first time it's happened, the Sibling says it spent years at time choosing a new Bondsmith.

There's evidence that Galivar and others have gotten the visions from Stormfather prior to Dalinar, so he could have spent years looking. And the Sibling has to have been watching and learning while Urithiru was occupied. Even if the Sibling then preferred Rlain, the Sibling had still spent time looking.

It's possible this is the first time the Sibling has ever accepted a bond under such duress. It's also possible that the Sibling (and the Stormfather) never make a decision on a Bondsmith until such duress occurs and the "years spent looking" are simply waiting for such occurance. So it's just as likely this isn't the first time it's happened.

I'll let you have the last word.

[Chinkoln]

3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

There's evidence that Galivar and others have gotten the visions from Stormfather prior to Dalinar, so he could have spent years looking. And the Sibling has to have been watching and learning while Urithiru was occupied. Even if the Sibling then preferred Rlain, the Sibling had still spent time looking.

It's possible this is the first time the Sibling has ever accepted a bond under such duress. It's also possible that the Sibling (and the Stormfather) never make a decision on a Bondsmith until such duress occurs and the "years spent looking" are simply waiting for such occurance. So it's just as likely this isn't the first time it's happened.

I'll let you have the last word.

The Sibling had chosen Rlain, and wanted to bond him. He said that Rlain wasn’t human, and he met everything that the Sibling desired. He would have bonded him, and there wouldn’t have been duress. This indicates that duress is not needed to become a Bondsmith.

[Leuthie]

34 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

The Sibling had chosen Rlain, and wanted to bond him. He said that Rlain wasn’t human, and he met everything that the Sibling desired. He would have bonded him, and there wouldn’t have been duress. This indicates that duress is not needed to become a Bondsmith.

Actually, the duress was there when the Sibling brought up Rlain. The only reason they brought up Rlain for bonding was after Navani suggested bonding her. Who's to say whether or not the Sibling would have bonded anyone had there not been the threat. If the Sibling had bonded Rlain instead of Navani, it still would have been partly due to the duress they were under in being threatened with unmaking by Raboniel.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Leuthie

[Lemiltock]

53 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

The Sibling had chosen Rlain, and wanted to bond him. He said that Rlain wasn’t human, and he met everything that the Sibling desired. He would have bonded him, and there wouldn’t have been duress. This indicates that duress is not needed to become a Bondsmith.

I just want to chime in as an aside, the sibling is a they/them not he/him. 

 

As to the topic at hand, do other radiants really get a choice? Syl started the bond with Kaladin, yes they had to further it together, but at its crux, Syl chose him. I think Navani has a long way to go, as does Dalinar. But the oaths they speak are apart of strengthening that bond, if Navani isnt worthy she wont progress in the oaths, or even break the first Oath (we didnt see this on screen did we?) and cause only minimal harm to the sibling

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

As to the topic at hand, do other radiants really get a choice? Syl started the bond with Kaladin, yes they had to further it together, but at its crux, Syl chose him. I think Navani has a long way to go, as does Dalinar. But the oaths they speak are apart of strengthening that bond, if Navani isnt worthy she wont progress in the oaths, or even break the first Oath (we didnt see this on screen did we?) and cause only minimal harm to the sibling

Syl gave Kaladin the option to break the bond and go separate ways.

[Lemiltock]

2 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Syl gave Kaladin the option to break the bond and go separate ways.

And the Sibling doesnt have that choice? Radiance is achieved in partnership with the spren, with both sides growning from it. I do agree the sibling initially chose due to death being the only other outcome, and Navani played a big hand in this being a likley outcome, but if Syl could break the bond so to can the sibling.

[GameOfGroans]

14 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Name calling is not a valid argument.

Well, you ignored all of my (and others') carefully presented arguments, so maybe you can understand a little ... frustration.

 

14 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

Addressing your "point" I repeat what I feel, not some vague claim I came up with to justify my hate of a bond that didn't go as I wanted there where several ways it could have gone in a way I would have liked but it didn't. Any quotes presented do nothing to sway me or my opinions and none really prove anything.

I see. So you didn't come to discuss, but to vent hate. Good to know.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

I see. So you didn't come to discuss, but to vent hate. Good to know.

I posted to state how I felt and how Navani's bond didn't sit well with me. If you can prove something it might change my mind but opinions don't change opinions.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Personally I’m not super hot about the bond between Navani and the Sibling. Like, Navani totally earned it and deserves it I think, but I definitely feel a bit tired of another Kholin attaining Radianthood. Plus there’s the problems with Fabrials. I think I would’ve been satisfied with a temporary bond between Navani and the Sibling before handing it off to Rlain, who would’ve been a cool candidate to help unite the singers and humans.

[Leuthie]

16 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

And the Sibling doesnt have that choice? Radiance is achieved in partnership with the spren, with both sides growning from it. I do agree the sibling initially chose due to death being the only other outcome, and Navani played a big hand in this being a likley outcome, but if Syl could break the bond so to can the sibling.

Who said the Sibling doesn't have that option? The Sibling doesn't want to exercise that option because the actions Navani has take before and since the bond don't warrant it. The Sibling isn't completely sold on Navani, but the conversations post bond show that the Sibling would rather work toward improving the situation with Navani. If the Sibling wanted to drop the bond, they would have. So this argument against the bond is one that ignores the Sibling's wants and needs and assumes it's powerless to Navani's coercion, which just isn't true.

Narratively, the Navani-Sibling bond has more possibilities for conflict than a Rlain-Sibling bond. If Brandon wanted to put the Sibling storyline aside after this book, he would have bonded Rlain-Sibling. The tower would fully work, the Radiants would be nearly whole and Brandon could focus in other directions. Since he bonded and kept bonded Navani and the Sibling, there will be more conflicts to write about going forward.

So I like the bond because it means more story involving science, fabrials and the Sibling.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Leuthie said:

Who said the Sibling doesn't have that option? The Sibling doesn't want to exercise that option because the actions Navani has take before and since the bond don't warrant it. The Sibling isn't completely sold on Navani, but the conversations post bond show that the Sibling would rather work toward improving the situation with Navani. If the Sibling wanted to drop the bond, they would have. So this argument against the bond is one that ignores the Sibling's wants and needs and assumes it's powerless to Navani's coercion, which just isn't true.

No, but it's powerless against Brandon, who didn't execute it well enough for us to think it was anything other than coersion that Brandon is amking it keep because he wants it to.

[Knight Oblivion]

On 12/11/2020 at 0:20 PM, Ookla The Frustrated said:

The Sibling was all but forced into the agreement. Metaphorical gun to the head.

The Oaths are less binding now that Honor is dead, that means stricter regulations not less, or even the same, Higher standards must be applied.

I'm calling chull dung on this. The Sibling was perfectly willing to not bond Navani and deem her unworthy even with its imminent unmaking/death. What specifically happens is that they fades as Navani tries to persuade them. In her despair, Navani manages to hear then sing Odium's tone with the Anti-Voidlight intent which seemingly pushes back on the process.

The Sibling then talks about their lack of Honor's tone which causes Navani to attune it. They both harmonize to join together and recreate the Rhythm of the Tower for the Sibling. This causes the Sibling to remember their purpose of being "the common ground between humans and spren." It's only after all of this, getting the unmaking pushed back, getting their Rhythm restored, and remembering their purpose, all through Navani's actions, that the Sibling accepts her first oath. Finds her implicitly worthy.

 

The whole scene is brief. The Sibling's unmaking is the same throughout. It is clear that they changed their mind as Navani uses what she's learned throughout the previous parts to prove her worth. The book doesn't tell us it, but shows us the change.

On 12/12/2020 at 9:25 PM, wotbibliophile said:

I am very against bonding a spren by force. I agree Dalinar, Navani, and Ishar are the same. Equally gross.

@StanLemon We know spren can change through a bond. It would be way more awesome if the spren chose first. 2 willing partners is the only thing that makes that growth and change awesome. For the spren and for the human/singer/listener. Coercion just makes me want to stab someone (to be clear: someone fictional. I'm looking at you Dalinar ).

The Sibling had the "choice" between bonding Navani and dying. I think by the end of the book the Sibling is making the best of the situation they are in. When the Sibling said Navani was not worthy, that stuck with me. That was enough for me to be against this bond. This is not a judgement on whether or not Navani is worthy. This is about the Sibling. Since it is a bond with the Sibling the Sibling should be able to veto whoever they want. I don't care if the reason is the person eats chickens. It's enough if the Sibling is against it.

1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

No, but it's powerless against Brandon, who didn't execute it well enough for us to think it was anything other than coersion that Brandon is amking it keep because he wants it to.

I think both of you are stuck on what the Sibling tells us instead of what we're shown literally a scene later when Navani proves her worth. There's no coercion, there's no change in the overarching situation. The Sibling was clearly willing to not bond Navani to save themself. Then the Sibling changes their mind after Navani proves she is worthy. There's no coercion.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Knight Oblivion