Frustration

I don't like this bond

116 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Additionally, I posit that any further red herrings that appear in the Cosmere henceforth be referred to as "Rlain Herrings". Thank you.

I second thins motion, all in favor say Lighteye.

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20 hours ago, trav said:

unfortunately. throwing Rlain in the mix was obviously a red herring. same goes for Dabbid.
maybe I am interpreting the passages wrong and the Sibling was convinced by Navani in the end.

I still don't like it.
I never liked that Kholins and friends did everything. even marrying one (or two...) is enough, apparently.
 

Agreed. The story feels like its about one really special family.....and Kaladin as the family friend. No one else actually gets to do anything particularly important and when they do act it seems to be to save or inspire a member of the super family.

Still shocked that the squad sent to Lasting Integrity accomplished......nothing. Sigizil and the Windrunners accomplished......nothing. The other Radiants dont really seem to be worth much to the story,

18 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It was well done.

Yes.

Though now I must ask. The story has to stay plausible, doesn't it? I fail to see how this can be happen without a certain number of obvious things happening. I would go as far as calling that close to the definition of plausibility.

If you want to change things, you will go for those who already have political power, if you are pursuing a simple strategy. If you are a member of a different species, anything else cannot be expected.

Nah, I didnt even like the Vyre confrontation, and no thats not what the word plausible means.

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9 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Sibling said that Navani isn't worthy for two reasons:

  1. They don't like Navani capturing spren.
  2. They don't like humans.

But Navani is worthy. No one in the Tower understands city management, building infrastructure, and fabrials. She kept an entire nation running after its king decided to start going on worldhopping vacations after politics bored him. All these qualities are vital for Urithiru to function as a cultural, political, and economic heart of the Coalition.

Rlain would have been a great Bondsmith, but not a Sibling Bondsmith, especially considering the circumstances.

Navani has self worth.That self worth does not mean she get to impose her will to subvert someone's agency over legitimate concerns. The Sibling does not want to bond a human because of the risks to the Sibling's safety and because they don't trust humans. That's their choice, their preference, and that decision is valid even beyond Navani's needs or wants. It's not about management, because the Sibling's problem isn't one of competency, it's a moral and ethical one based around Navani's use of spren and a rational fear born out of previous trauma caused by humans. To me, it's like trying to compel a bisexual person to date a man after they suffered trauma with an ex, and would prefer to be with a woman.

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Rlain might have been a great Bondsmith for the Sibling.  He just needed to be taught (by Navani) to perfection create Honor’s tone, harmonize with the Sibling to create Towerlight, be taught how to use the Sibling’s many disparate and complex fabrial constructs.  I’m sure all of that could have been done easily within the context of the book...And, of, course, we all know that Rlain was happy to bond to any spren that wanted him.  Or maybe Rlain is happy with his bond to a spren that carefully studied him for a protracted period of time, and wants him for his ability to bridge minds, his willingness to see the truth of things and share it.  I think Rlain, bonded to a mistspren (though Awakened, by Sja-Anat), is perfect - I think that Singer Radiants make a certain amount of sense more closely aligned to Cultivation’s side of the Surges.

As for Navani, it is absolutely true that the Sibling deemed her unworthy, but she makes a case for herself to the Sibling.  Successfully.  There is mortal danger for both of them, true.  But she knows how to harmonize with the Sibling when it’s necessary.  She knows how to vent away the Voidlight in the Sibling’s ‘veins.’  She has a learned, experienced understanding of the ways in which the Sibling integrates with Urithiru.  And she does display attributes of a Bondsmith in this book.  She advocates for the sharing of research, of discovery among the human alliance.  She unites with a Fused leader in a common pursuit of knowledge, of discovery.  Raboniel definitely views her as a friend by the end of their time together.  When’s the last time a human and a Fused were friends?  How many thousands of years?  She does her best to protect the humans within Urithiru - leading them by surrendering when so many Alethi leaders might have fought to the last person.  She grows so much in this book. Her relationship with the Sibling is precarious.  We don’t know the extent to which the Sibling is fully recovered from the events that led them to sleep around the Recreance and the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram.  But there is so much foundation that was laid in this book for Navani to progressed in the way that she did.  And, for her, she needed to stand up for herself, for what she advocates for to the Sibling, in a way that she never stood up to Gavilar’s lack of faith in her.  She is worthy.

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3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Agreed. The story feels like its about one really special family.....

To a large extent it is. The Kholin family is special. How often do two brothers take over a country?

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

and Kaladin as the family friend. No one else actually gets to do anything particularly important and when they do act it seems to be to save or inspire a member of the super family.

  • Lift
  • Taravangian
  • Cultivation
  • Moash

 

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Still shocked that the squad sent to Lasting Integrity accomplished......nothing.

It got the group there and it drove away the Tukari. Shadesmar is a really hostile environment. You need to make your own water and nothing is edible without Soulcasters. Hence you need a large logistic troup containing native Soulcaster Radiants.

The mission itself was quite successful.

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Sigizil and the Windrunners accomplished......nothing.

Of course they did. They fought off the Skybreakers and Heavenly Ones over the battlefield and did numerous scouting missions.

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

The other Radiants dont really seem to be worth much to the story,

The people the Truthwatchers and Edgedancers healed were glad they were there. Large undertakings like a military campaign are team efforts and not everybody can have a flashy or even interesting job. Nevertheless they were vital. The only Radiants we missed were the Stonewards and Dustbringers. In the latter case for obvious reasons.

Now, a few things touching fundamental issues.

The way aracane powers are set up in the Cosmere it will be dominated by a very small number of actors or even single ones. Three Bondsmiths for a whole planet. Only one could enter the well and take up the power. Sixteen Shards for the whole Cosmere. Fabrials and related technologies may change that. But not here and now.

Secondly. we are talking about preindustrialized economies save for Scadrial. That meas that average people will be poor and uneducated. We have seen very little of Roshar's village life and what we have seen was through the eyes of a middle class boy. These people would not make particularly good Knights Radiant. See the troubles Wyndle had with Lift.

Thirdly, bonding for most Spren is utilitarian. Now, it may be unflattering to liken a Knight Radiant to a lichen, but ecologically speaking they are very similar. Technically we have a case of symbiosis. The Spren grants the physical partner the ability to use Stormlight in a highly advantageous manner, while the physical partner allows the Spren to live in a highly hostile environment for long, just like a lichen. (Bondsmiths are an exception)
The Spren also have a military and political goal. They want to fight Odium. Furthermore they are genuinely interested in the ethical goals of their oaths and some have a genuine interest in humans. Their ethical goals, however, are limited. Even more limited than Honor's. They are not interested in justice as such (in the law, yes, but not justice) nor are they interested in equality (not even in the most basic sense of everybody having human rights - Spren have no issue with slavery) and with the the exception of the Willshapers they are not interested in liberty.
Hence they will bond based on efficiency. And here we are back to ecology. Where does a bee send other bees? To a place of known resources and they will explore the vincinity of that place. Why?

  1. They are looking for people with certain qualities. Often people with these qualities will be in the same place. In fact Kaladin trained the people in his group to be better at the qualities the Spren seek.
  2. It is better and nicer for them to be nearer other Spren of theri kind. They have an interest in helping each other.
  3. The physical partners have an interest in finding better new symbionts. The system of squires facilitates that even more. You saw it best in the Skybreakers. They cooperated to set up training and test faciilities for new candidates.

There are ample reasons for the Spren to bond predominantly near Knights Radiant and their families and friends.

3 hours ago, Nymeros said:

Nah, I didnt even like the Vyre confrontation, and no thats not what the word plausible means.

How could a story with too many improbable outcomes be plausible?

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5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

-snip-

To be clear, I've read the story. You should understand that telling me that the Kholins actually are special and that Radiants serving as medics, scouts, troops, and food suppliers are actually very worthy contributions to the *story* isn't actually going to change my stance.

Quote

There are ample reasons for the Spren to bond predominantly near Knights Radiant and their families and friends.

Did anyone indicate there wasn't?

Quote

How could a story with too many improbable outcomes be plausible?


How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? There, one irrelevant question in exchange for another. 

Edited by Nymeros
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I am afraid your preferences for the story are incompatible with an internally consistent story.

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45 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid your preferences for the story are incompatible with an internally consistent story.

What preferences do you speak of?

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11 hours ago, dgreene196 said:

 And, for her, she needed to stand up for herself, for what she advocates for to the Sibling, in a way that she never stood up to Gavilar’s lack of faith in her.  She is worthy.

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

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1 hour ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

At no point must the Sibling agree to the bond.  The bond isn't forced.  They choose the bond.  There is Intent behind their choice of Navani.  She is definitely NOT their first choice.  Rlain is the Sibling's first choice (though we do not know whether Rlain would have agreed to that particular bond).  However, she makes a case to the Sibling, that is at least appealing to them - she proposes that Honor isn't truly dead, because his creations, his influence lives on.  She's able to use the Anti-Voidlight tones to push back the Sibling's corruption.  She makes a case the Sibling accepts.  The Sibling is certainly under stress and lacks preferred options, but they still accept that relationship.

As to power over the souls of everything?  There's so much we don't know about Bondsmiths.  We don't know what Navani and the Sibling will be capable of moving forward.  She is not a Bondsmith unbound like Ishar, nor is the Sibling strengthened with Honor's cognitive shadow as is the Stormfather.  She is her own variation of a Bondsmith, on a distinct path with the Sibling.

I think it will be fascinating to see how it all plays out.  But that is just my thoughts on the matter.

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5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid your preferences for the story are incompatible with an internally consistent story.

don't be so condescending because someone else doesnt like something as much as you do. 

Syl bonded a nobody. all the Honorspren did. the spren did not go for leaders. 

by that logic any highprince should now be Radiant. somehow it only applies to the Kholins and friends. 

sorry. you may like those sort of fairytale stories. I dont. I prefer stories like Mistborn. 

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1 hour ago, trav said:

don't be so condescending because someone else doesnt like something as much as you do. 

Syl bonded a nobody.

"Son of Tanavast"

1 hour ago, trav said:

all the Honorspren did. the spren did not go for leaders.

They are Windrunners not Bondsmiths. Yet after the initial bond where did they go? The leader's friends.

1 hour ago, trav said:

by that logic any highprince should now be Radiant. somehow it only applies to the Kholins and friends. 

sorry. you may like those sort of fairytale stories. I dont. I prefer stories like Mistborn. 

The fairy tale is where a nobody from the provinces saves the day. The Stormfather needed a warlord, hence he picked a warlord. We have to face a truth. Dalinar was not picked because he changed from being the Blackthorn, but because at some level he is the Blackthorn.

Burning Rathalas has made possible uniting Roshar.

 

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People complain about the Sibling being strong armed to bond by the circumstances. The thing is, Dalinar strong armed the Stormfather as well. Both Bondsmith spren have bonded people not because they wanted to but because it was necessary and for the Stormfather at least, it has proven beneficial for him

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I am very against bonding a spren by force. I agree Dalinar, Navani, and Ishar are the same. Equally gross.

@StanLemon We know spren can change through a bond. It would be way more awesome if the spren chose first. 2 willing partners is the only thing that makes that growth and change awesome. For the spren and for the human/singer/listener. Coercion just makes me want to stab someone (to be clear: someone fictional. I'm looking at you Dalinar :angry:).

10 hours ago, dgreene196 said:

At no point must the Sibling agree to the bond.  The bond isn't forced.

The Sibling had the "choice" between bonding Navani and dying. I think by the end of the book the Sibling is making the best of the situation they are in. When the Sibling said Navani was not worthy, that stuck with me. That was enough for me to be against this bond. This is not a judgement on whether or not Navani is worthy. This is about the Sibling. Since it is a bond with the Sibling the Sibling should be able to veto whoever they want. I don't care if the reason is the person eats chickens. It's enough if the Sibling is against it.

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Without getting a proper pov of The Sibling, most of this discussion is speculation.

True, The Sibling did not consider Navani worthy. That was when they first met. In the story, I believe that The Sibling begins to

1) Trust Navani

2) Appreciate Navani's intellect

3) See that Navani is willing to work with 'the other' for the good of her people

They bonded through necessity, but they bonded successfully. They are more likely to try to work through their differences together than abandon the bond because of poor first impresssions (especially as a child of Honor himself)

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19 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

 

You keep repeating this oversimplified bias as if repeating it will make it true, while ignoring every post that gives quotes and explanations why it's not the case . Maybe you can change your username into "Ookla the Lightweaver".

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19 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

See this is my problem it's designed to look like she's overcoming Gavilar's abuse, by forcing another entity entirely to accept her. It doesn't make sense, nor is it worthy, oh one person was horrible to me so I must be worthy of the power over the souls of everything. It makes no sense.

Sometimes, for example in the middle of a war which the fate of a dozen worlds may be at stake in, somebody's wishes, personal growth or emotional state must be disregarded in the face of the common good. And you just do your duty and what needs to be done.
I suggest that that applies in the case of Navani and The Sibling to the fullest extent.

And it needs to be pointed out that The Sibling is merely requested to take a risk while a large number of people actually died defending Urithiru. That is especially worth considering if you essentially are a tower who will inevitably be high on the list of enemy targets. You cannot run away.

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8 hours ago, Prymalfire said:

Without getting a proper pov of The Sibling, most of this discussion is speculation.

True, The Sibling did not consider Navani worthy. That was when they first met. In the story, I believe that The Sibling begins to

1) Trust Navani

2) Appreciate Navani's intellect

3) See that Navani is willing to work with 'the other' for the good of her people

They bonded through necessity, but they bonded successfully. They are more likely to try to work through their differences together than abandon the bond because of poor first impresssions (especially as a child of Honor himself)

It said she wasn't worthy right before she bonded

5 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

 

You keep repeating this oversimplified bias as if repeating it will make it true, while ignoring every post that gives quotes and explanations why it's not the case . Maybe you can change your username into "Ookla the Lightweaver".

Name calling is not a valid argument.

Addressing your "point" I repeat what I feel, not some vague claim I came up with to justify my hate of a bond that didn't go as I wanted there where several ways it could have gone in a way I would have liked but it didn't. Any quotes presented do nothing to sway me or my opinions and none really prove anything.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sometimes, for example in the middle of a war which the fate of a dozen worlds may be at stake in, somebody's wishes, personal growth or emotional state must be disregarded in the face of the common good. And you just do your duty and what needs to be done.
I suggest that that applies in the case of Navani and The Sibling to the fullest extent.

And it needs to be pointed out that The Sibling is merely requested to take a risk while a large number of people actually died defending Urithiru. That is especially worth considering if you essentially are a tower who will inevitably be high on the list of enemy targets. You cannot run away.

And? I don't understand the argument that everything else should be thrown out because of a threat. Once the Fused left there was a reprieve, and the tower has the ability to still function, which gives time to rebond, that time won't turn the tower off. 

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13 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I am very against bonding a spren by force. I agree Dalinar, Navani, and Ishar are the same. Equally gross.

@StanLemon We know spren can change through a bond. It would be way more awesome if the spren chose first. 2 willing partners is the only thing that makes that growth and change awesome. For the spren and for the human/singer/listener. Coercion just makes me want to stab someone (to be clear: someone fictional. I'm looking at you Dalinar :angry:).

The Sibling had the "choice" between bonding Navani and dying. I think by the end of the book the Sibling is making the best of the situation they are in. When the Sibling said Navani was not worthy, that stuck with me. That was enough for me to be against this bond. This is not a judgement on whether or not Navani is worthy. This is about the Sibling. Since it is a bond with the Sibling the Sibling should be able to veto whoever they want. I don't care if the reason is the person eats chickens. It's enough if the Sibling is against it.

I can understand where you are coming from. But here is another way to look at it. You see someone doing something self destructive and will endanger more people than just themselves as well. Do you just sit back and wait for them to choose the better option or do you get involved to save not just them but others as well? Even though Dalinar strong armed the Stormfather, the Stormfather could have denied it if he truly wanted to. As for the Sibling, it was like if there was just one person who could save everyone was mortally wounded and they had the option of just letting themselves die or letting the person they don't like very much save them so that they could save everyone else.

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We have seen two people become Bondsmiths. Both of them require some form of coersion under duress to form the bond. 

While it's a small sample size, one wouldn't be remiss to assume that every Bondsmith was created under duress in a similar fashion. Unity requires political struggle, which usually requires concession and coercion to accomplish. Requiring a future Bondsmith to break through a reticent spren's protests to create the bond actually makes sense if the ultimate goal of Bondsmiths is to unite groups of people.

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2 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

We have seen two people become Bondsmiths. Both of them require some form of coersion under duress to form the bond. 

While it's a small sample size, one wouldn't be remiss to assume that every Bondsmith was created under duress in a similar fashion. Unity requires political struggle, which usually requires concession and coercion to accomplish. Requiring a future Bondsmith to break through a reticent spren's protests to create the bond actually makes sense if the ultimate goal of Bondsmiths is to unite groups of people.

This is likely the first time it's happened, the Sibling says it spent years at time choosing a new Bondsmith.

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4 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

This is likely the first time it's happened, the Sibling says it spent years at time choosing a new Bondsmith.

There's evidence that Galivar and others have gotten the visions from Stormfather prior to Dalinar, so he could have spent years looking. And the Sibling has to have been watching and learning while Urithiru was occupied. Even if the Sibling then preferred Rlain, the Sibling had still spent time looking.

It's possible this is the first time the Sibling has ever accepted a bond under such duress. It's also possible that the Sibling (and the Stormfather) never make a decision on a Bondsmith until such duress occurs and the "years spent looking" are simply waiting for such occurance. So it's just as likely this isn't the first time it's happened.

I'll let you have the last word.

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3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

There's evidence that Galivar and others have gotten the visions from Stormfather prior to Dalinar, so he could have spent years looking. And the Sibling has to have been watching and learning while Urithiru was occupied. Even if the Sibling then preferred Rlain, the Sibling had still spent time looking.

It's possible this is the first time the Sibling has ever accepted a bond under such duress. It's also possible that the Sibling (and the Stormfather) never make a decision on a Bondsmith until such duress occurs and the "years spent looking" are simply waiting for such occurance. So it's just as likely this isn't the first time it's happened.

I'll let you have the last word.

The Sibling had chosen Rlain, and wanted to bond him. He said that Rlain wasn’t human, and he met everything that the Sibling desired. He would have bonded him, and there wouldn’t have been duress. This indicates that duress is not needed to become a Bondsmith.

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34 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

The Sibling had chosen Rlain, and wanted to bond him. He said that Rlain wasn’t human, and he met everything that the Sibling desired. He would have bonded him, and there wouldn’t have been duress. This indicates that duress is not needed to become a Bondsmith.

Actually, the duress was there when the Sibling brought up Rlain. The only reason they brought up Rlain for bonding was after Navani suggested bonding her. Who's to say whether or not the Sibling would have bonded anyone had there not been the threat. If the Sibling had bonded Rlain instead of Navani, it still would have been partly due to the duress they were under in being threatened with unmaking by Raboniel.

Edited by Leuthie
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53 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

The Sibling had chosen Rlain, and wanted to bond him. He said that Rlain wasn’t human, and he met everything that the Sibling desired. He would have bonded him, and there wouldn’t have been duress. This indicates that duress is not needed to become a Bondsmith.

I just want to chime in as an aside, the sibling is a they/them not he/him. 

 

As to the topic at hand, do other radiants really get a choice? Syl started the bond with Kaladin, yes they had to further it together, but at its crux, Syl chose him. I think Navani has a long way to go, as does Dalinar. But the oaths they speak are apart of strengthening that bond, if Navani isnt worthy she wont progress in the oaths, or even break the first Oath (we didnt see this on screen did we?) and cause only minimal harm to the sibling

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